NBA will whistle more techs for 'overt' gestures

#1
NEW YORK (AP) -- Tired of player rants, the NBA plans to crack down this season on "overt" gestures, such as swinging a fist in the air in anger.

And players can be called for technical fouls even if those actions weren't directed at a referee.

...

Besides punching the air, other examples of punishable offenses this season include:
• Waving off an official as a sign of disrespect
• Running up to an official from across the court
• Waving arms in disbelief, or jumping up and down in disbelief
• Clapping sarcastically at an official
Coaches were already told of the new enforcement plans, along with another point of emphasis this season: There will be an "almost zero-tolerance policy" on assistants yelling at referees.
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/09/24/officials.crackdown.ap/index.html

Quite a joke IMO ... Jumping up and down = technical. Clapping = technical. Oh well who's up for watching the National Robot Basketball Association? I understand the intention, but I think this just puts the ball way too much in the referees' court. We can kiss any championship dreams goodbye - refs will probably eject our whole team for clapping or something.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#2
Do you really expect anything different? the NBA is just trying to do a complete 360 in everything they do and change things that don't need any changes. Players first reaction is to plead their case, it's hard not to. So, I guess this season when they decide to "complain" it's going to become very common.
 
#3
I can't wait until we face the Lakers or the Heat, James cries to ref and gets away with it while JT cries and gets a tech...
 
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LWP777

Guest
#6
I agree with the NBA's move. The players have a terrible image right now and need to stop acting like idiots on the court all the time.
 
#8
good
time for players to shut up and show some respect
and maybe then the refs can do there job
shutting up and not complaining is one thing... I'm totally fine with that. But stuff like clapping (like when a player just claps and heads the other way?), or jumping up and down (which JT does a lot off by the way)? You're taking emotion entirely out of the game, not allowing players to vent their frustrations, which may be with themselves. With this rule, the refs can choose to interpret it as an act of disrespect towards them, and give the player a technical foul. My whole point is that you are leaving too much in the referees' hands, giving them too much power to affect a game based on their own interpretations of how a player acts. Do you honestly believe that there won't be star treatment even with these new rules in place?
 
#9
I understand the control of whining about calls n stuff... but a punch in the air? saying "come on!" after being called a foul on or not getting a call? raises his hands, or smacks his own arm to demonstrate how he was fouled? ... technicals? This is going way too far... Stern is basically trying to turn all the players into robots? without any emotions?
 
#11
Acting like idiots? This penalizes players for acting CIVIL by just calmly discussing a call.
I really think there should be no talking to refs, there never should have been any. If a team has a problem with a call let the coach talk/yell to the refs. The so called civil conversations from what I read are more like lectures, which should stop. Of course the only problem I have with this rule is that they are going to apply it to only crap teams and unknown players(Kings anyone), but if it was applied equally it would be a great rule.
 
#12
I really think there should be no talking to refs, there never should have been any. If a team has a problem with a call let the coach talk/yell to the refs. The so called civil conversations from what I read are more like lectures, which should stop. Of course the only problem I have with this rule is that they are going to apply it to only crap teams and unknown players(Kings anyone), but if it was applied equally it would be a great rule.
But this goes beyond talking to refs. If you got fouled, got no call and you just made a gesture, not directed towards the official but just out of frustration (or are players not allowed to be frustrated?) and got called for a tech do you think that's remotely fair?
 
#13
They already tried this about 4-5 yrs ago and were kicking players out for silly crap. Some of them were being kicked out w/in the first 6 minutes of the game. Then Stern realized it wasn't feasible and they went back to the old way. This is bound to be a repeat of that.
 
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LWP777

Guest
#14
But this goes beyond talking to refs. If you got fouled, got no call and you just made a gesture, not directed towards the official but just out of frustration (or are players not allowed to be frustrated?) and got called for a tech do you think that's remotely fair?
It depends on what the gesture is. They aren't going to T anybody for just being "frustrated." They clearly define it here:

Besides punching the air, other examples of punishable offenses this season include:
• Waving off an official as a sign of disrespect
• Running up to an official from across the court
• Waving arms in disbelief, or jumping up and down in disbelief
• Clapping sarcastically at an official

In my opinion, I'm glad they are going to T guys for all of these offenses. Fans are getting tired of watching multi-millionaires cry over every call. Players have found creative ways to show up officials (like clapping sarcastically at officials) and get away with not being T'ed up. The players in the NBA have a bad image and this is step 1 in cleaning that up.
 
#15
It depends on what the gesture is. They aren't going to T anybody for just being "frustrated." They clearly define it here:

Besides punching the air, other examples of punishable offenses this season include:
• Waving off an official as a sign of disrespect
• Running up to an official from across the court
• Waving arms in disbelief, or jumping up and down in disbelief
• Clapping sarcastically at an official

In my opinion, I'm glad they are going to T guys for all of these offenses. Fans are getting tired of watching multi-millionaires cry over every call. Players have found creative ways to show up officials (like clapping sarcastically at officials) and get away with not being T'ed up. The players in the NBA have a bad image and this is step 1 in cleaning that up.
Alright then, what would you do if you were frustrated with a call? What to you, would be a good image for players to demonstrate, while still allowing them to vent their frustration? Of course, ideally you'd like all players to just give a nod and run back and keep playing, but honestly, do you think that's humanly possible?
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#17
Alright then, what would you do if you were frustrated with a call? What to you, would be a good image for players to demonstrate, while still allowing them to vent their frustration? Of course, ideally you'd like all players to just give a nod and run back and keep playing, but honestly, do you think that's humanly possible?
Yes, it is. Players will do what they're allowed to get away with - and now that means complain after every possession regardless of whether there's reason to complain or not. Once they get accustomed to the fact that they can't get away with it anymore, they'll adjust. I thought they were adjusting fine several years ago before the league pulled the plug on the quick-tech rules.
 
#18
The two biggest crybabies are Kobe and LeBron. When they slap a few technicals on them, I'll believe the NBA is serious.
Kobe is 1 behind the limit for Ts every year. Then what happens is that the refs know it (just like they knew it with Kendrick Perkins last year) and they realize that giving them that 1 extra T knocks him (or Perkins) out of a playoff game. Result = conspiracy theories galore; "Stern screwed us"; etc etc. The refs let a star player at the cusp of a suspension get away w/ MORE than they would if they weren't. A couple of years ago, the league office let Rondo get away w/ what would've been flagrant 2s in the RS in order to keep him from missing a playoff game.

This is B.S., my lovable Nortenos. It won't last beyond December. Last time they told them to be zero-tolerance, it frustrated the FANS and media. It wasn't that long ago, I believe it was the start of the 2006 or 2007 season. If anything, they want to pretend that they're establishing a pattern that they hope the players will adhere to beyond that point (which they won't). There's no way in Hell...............that the league is going to allow the refs to kick out star players in the playoffs. You know it, I know it, Stern knows it, refs know it. And further than that, who here in this thread believes that they will kick out ANY marquee player in a big nationally televised game for two ticky tack infractions? Pff... Can you picture the refs having the sack to eject Kobe and LeBron from the Xmas game in the first half? Lolz. Media and fans would cry bloody murder about Stern uber-controlling the league if that were the case. Dave can't afford that, he has a hard enough time pimping his lower quality league as it is.

PS: Doc Rivers cries about 37x every game and gets a max of 1 ejection per year. They could kick his *** out of 10 games a year if they were even MODERATELY short fused. That won't happen either.
 
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#19
In my opinion, I'm glad they are going to T guys for all of these offenses. Fans are getting tired of watching multi-millionaires cry over every call. Players have found creative ways to show up officials (like clapping sarcastically at officials) and get away with not being T'ed up. The players in the NBA have a bad image and this is step 1 in cleaning that up.
The league has a bad image because of the REFS and the unbridled control that they seem to wield. Do I have to explain that here of all places? When you see your guy get T'd and even ejected for doing something like "arguing too much"...which has very little real impact on anything except to the pride of some young dips*** like Zack Zarba...it's not going to make the player the villian in the eyes of the fans, I guarantee you that. It'll make the refs the villians (once again). Stern is so ponderously stupid in some ways, it amazes me. He's the biggest advocate of the notion that his refs are on the level, yet he puts them in a situation that has no other result than to make them more conspicuous than they already are.
 
#22
This is so stupid, and it's really the heart of the NBA's problem with officiating. As long as Stern continues to blindly and shamelessly defend his referees without acknowledging that they do a horrible job of calling the games, the refs won't get respect. You can't legislate respect, it has to be earned. And this rule is working against itself.
 
#23
This is so stupid, and it's really the heart of the NBA's problem with officiating. As long as Stern continues to blindly and shamelessly defend his referees without acknowledging that they do a horrible job of calling the games, the refs won't get respect. You can't legislate respect, it has to be earned. And this rule is working against itself.
Exactly. I mean we all wish that certain players would just shut up and play many a time, but this isn't the way that you're going to change things for the better. It's like how the parent who is over-controlling usually ends up with a rebellious kid.
 
L

LWP777

Guest
#24
The league has a bad image because of the REFS and the unbridled control that they seem to wield. Do I have to explain that here of all places? When you see your guy get T'd and even ejected for doing something like "arguing too much"...which has very little real impact on anything except to the pride of some young dips*** like Zack Zarba...it's not going to make the player the villian in the eyes of the fans, I guarantee you that. It'll make the refs the villians (once again). Stern is so ponderously stupid in some ways, it amazes me. He's the biggest advocate of the notion that his refs are on the level, yet he puts them in a situation that has no other result than to make them more conspicuous than they already are.
I agree that the referees have a bad reputation. Some of it is valid (Tim Donaghy,Dick Bavetta conspiracy, etc.) but most of it is the same whining towards referees that goes on in every sport. Refereeing basketball is by far the most difficult. I think the referees do a good job. They could get 19/20 calls right but everybody would think they are terrible because of the one missed call. The referees are held to a much higher standard than that of the players. They are required to watch video of each game they work and break it down play by play. Every single whistle they have goes into a database and is graded as a correct call/incorrect call. The referees with poor percentages don't advance to the playoffs and some are fired and/or fined. None of this is public.

As for Stern, you can say what you want about the guy but he took over the NBA in the 80's when it was largely failing. He created a salary cap which is probably the best of all the sports and allows small market teams to compete with the large market teams.

Fans are tiring of the antics of NBA players. We have been in a major economic downturn for a few years now. People are losing their houses and jobs. The last thing they want to see is a bunch of overpaid athletes popping off on the court and acting like thugs. It's bad for the game. The NBA has spent a lot of money researching what the fan's perception is. This is why they are doing something about it. Fans don't want to see it.
 
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LWP777

Guest
#25
Exactly. I mean we all wish that certain players would just shut up and play many a time, but this isn't the way that you're going to change things for the better. It's like how the parent who is over-controlling usually ends up with a rebellious kid.
It's amazing to see how many people stick up for the players and blame the officials and/or the NBA for this. Is it really that bad of a thing to crack down so that we can just watch these amazing athletes play basketball and shut their mouths? Did you enjoy watching Brad Miller act like a complete idiot during his time here? Wouldn't it have been nice if he was forced to change and we didn't have to see that side of him?

If a player has a heat of the moment reaction and then lets it go THEY WILL NOT GET A TECHNICAL. I think you are misunderstanding what they are cracking down on. It is entirely possible to be "frustrated" without doing any of those actions and not get T'ed up. It is okay to be frustrated from time to time but there is no need for any of this crap:

Besides punching the air, other examples of punishable offenses this season include:
• Waving off an official as a sign of disrespect
• Running up to an official from across the court
• Waving arms in disbelief, or jumping up and down in disbelief
• Clapping sarcastically at an official

Do you really want to keep seeing this stuff? You say it would be nice to see them shutup. What is your solution? Have a group hug with all of them before the game? Sing Kumbaya at halftime?
 
#26
I agree that the referees have a bad reputation. Some of it is valid (Tim Donaghy,Dick Bavetta conspiracy, etc.) but most of it is the same whining towards referees that goes on in every sport. Refereeing basketball is by far the most difficult. I think the referees do a good job. They could get 19/20 calls right but everybody would think they are terrible because of the one missed call. The referees are held to a much higher standard than that of the players. They are required to watch video of each game they work and break it down play by play. Every single whistle they have goes into a database and is graded as a correct call/incorrect call. The referees with poor percentages don't advance to the playoffs and some are fired and/or fined. None of this is public.
That's part of the problem. Open acknowledgment of poor officiating would be a huge step toward fixing the main problem the NBA has: credibility.

As for Stern, you can say what you want about the guy but he took over the NBA in the 80's when it was largely failing. He created a salary cap which is probably the best of all the sports and allows small market teams to compete with the large market teams.
Wrong on so many levels. First of all, Magic, Bird (particularly the Boston/LA rivalry) and MJ saved the NBA, not David Stern. He was smart to market them the way he did, and his marketing has led to the globalization of the sport, so credit where it's due, but without those players, Stern would be a footnote. Also worth noting is the fact that Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Olajuwan, etc. all came in right around that same time.

As for the salary cap, this is an agreement between the owners and the players. To give Stern credit for it is disingenuous.

It's also laughable to say that the NBA's salary cap is either the best in sports or that it allows small market teams to compete. Since its inception 26 years ago, seven teams have won the championship: Lakers 8, Bulls 6, Spurs 4, Pistons 3, Celtics 2, Rockets 2, Heat 1. 23% of the teams share 100% of the titles. Only one of those teams (Spurs) is in what would be called a small market, but being the second biggest city in Texas, having the 7th highest metro population in the country, and being the 4th fastest growing city in the country for most of the last decade kind of undermines that idea. Parity is still not a legitimate claim the NBA can make, despite the salary cap's somewhat balancing effects.

Should also mention that there have already been two lockouts and one work stoppage under Stern's watch, and we're headed for a third lockout and second work stoppage soon.

Fans are tiring of the antics of NBA players. We have been in a major economic downturn for a few years now. People are losing their houses and jobs. The last thing they want to see is a bunch of overpaid athletes popping off on the court and acting like thugs. It's bad for the game. The NBA has spent a lot of money researching what the fan's perception is. This is why they are doing something about it. Fans don't want to see it.
I think you're reaching here. Fans complain about poor officiating a lot more often than they complain about players' reactions to poor officiating. A professional athlete, competing at the highest possible level he can compete at, is going to have an emotional reaction or five. It has nothing to do with how much money they make. It always cracks me up when fans complain about how much players make. Stop paying their salary if you don't like it. Don't watch games, don't go to games, don't buy hats and jerseys, don't by the SI special edition when your team wins to get the memorabilia, etc. "Acting like thugs" has nothing to do with it (it's also hilarious that fans continue to watch a league full of so-called thuggish behavior when they claim that said thuggish behavior is a turn off). The economy has nothing to do with how it. As sad as it is that some people have it rough, you'll still find them huddled around a TV on Sunday afternoon.

For the record, I think players complain way too much. No one has ever committed a foul. No one travels. But you can't publicly deride players for complaining about bad calls and then refuse to acknowledge the fact that your officials suck more and more each year. If you're going to publicly announce that players complain too much, you should hold your officials to just as high a standard, given the fact that they represent the game as well. Instead, you see unending protection of the referrees, while the players get the blame. It's nonsense. The NBA has had a problem with officiating for years, and everyone knows it. But their answer is to penalize emotional responses by the players? How does that fix the actual problem?
 
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LWP777

Guest
#27
Superman:

You make a lot of really good points here. I don't have a lot of time to shoot them all down. :)

But I am curious, if you were in charge of the NBA referees, what would you do to improve the staff?
 
#28
While I think the whining of the players needs to be stopped somehow, this new plan will only work with the implementation of some sort of transparent referee oversight by the NBA, like a board of retired NBA notables, or some third party review. Without that, this just becomes another way the referees affect the outcomes of games, and further lowers my hope for an impartially called game.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#29
It all sounds nice in theory but it will never be applied evenly so I don't like it at all. Just another way to give more unchecked power to the refs as others have pointed out. What's wrong with allowing players to have their emotions anyway? "Clapping sarcastically" is open to extreme interpretation, I play competitive sports and occasionally thank a ref for a call I don't like for a host of different reasons. It's silly to think that refs can now read minds to determine which applause is cynical in nature, and when a player might just be saying, "Ok, fair enough, now let's see some of these go the other way too".