More Tank Talk! Plus, What is a Wing? (split from the [Game] thread}

[ShastaKingsFan]

There are no more power forwards, there are no more shooting guards

Is someone like Keon a primary ball handler in his ideal role? If not, what position does he play?

 

[ESP47]

I agree completely.

Primary Ball handler: pretty self explanatory
Bigs: defensive anchor, Rim protector, rebounder. Typically not as mobile and versatile on defense.
Wings: what I posted.

I feel like it's too narrow to just put players in 3 categories. There's tons of non primary ball handling guards that don't really fit into what a wing is supposed to do. Maybe they have "wing" skills but they certainly can't hold their own on defense with most wings that play the 4.

If Monte said he was going to draft a wing on draft day and wound up drafting a non primary ball handling guard, we would all be up in arms about it because most people don't consider that player to be a wing.

 

[upinsmoke]

Is someone like Keon a primary ball handler in his ideal role? If not, what position does he play?

Starting guard. Idk whatever.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

This is assuming Vivek would allow a rebuild, which I seriously doubt would ever happen, considering he has been a "win now" guy since assuming ownership of the franchise.

All those high lotto years under Vlade don't count as a rebuild either, because we were trying to "win now" back then too, Vlade was just a bumbling buffoon of a train wreck as GM.

Eh, I see a plan to rebuild at least starting from trading Cousins, (and probably from earlier that year after firing Karl) Part of the friction between Joerger and the front office is that the FO wanted another development year and Joerger on his last contract year wasn't motivated to tank.

Walton was clearly not going to be a winner, it got Vlade fired after a year, but he was an able tank commander, so he was retained.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Is someone like Keon a primary ball handler in his ideal role? If not, what position does he play?

I'd say he plays the wing.

 

[gunks]

Eh, I see a plan to rebuild at least starting from trading Cousins, (and probably from earlier that year after firing Karl) Part of the friction between Joerger and the front office is that the FO wanted another development year and Joerger on his last contract year wasn't motivated to tank.

Walton was clearly not going to be a winner, it got Vlade fired after a year, but he was an able tank commander, so he was retained.

Talk post Cousins trade was that Vivek got wishy washy at the 25th hour about maxing him out and told Vlade to trade him for Buddy (he's the next Klay!), not necessarily that it was a tank move.

Luke stuck it out because he was Vlade's buddy, the fact that he happened to be a great tank commander was just a lucky accident.

I'll concede the Joerger point though! You've unlocked a hazy memory about our FO wanting to give up that season and jockey for lotto positioning.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I'd say he plays the wing.

Keon isn’t considered a wing and isn’t a PG he can’t guard up and gets bullied by bigger guards as is.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I'd say he plays the wing.

I see him as a combo guard

 

[sactowndog]

I feel like it's too narrow to just put players in 3 categories. There's tons of non primary ball handling guards that don't really fit into what a wing is supposed to do. Maybe they have "wing" skills but they certainly can't hold their own on defense with most wings that play the 4.

If Monte said he was going to draft a wing on draft day and wound up drafting a non primary ball handling guard, we would all be up in arms about it because most people don't consider that player to be a wing.

There are smaller and larger wings. But generally on most teams wings are getting longer in length.

 

[sactowndog]

Keon isn’t considered a wing and isn’t a PG he can’t guard up and gets bullied by bigger guards as is.

I consider Keon a wing. He can guard 1 or 2 and limited 3. He plays on the perimeter. He has some limitations based on length but he clearly is a wing.

 

[The_Jamal]

Keon is a wing/secondary ball handler type for sure

 

[Tetsujin]

I consider Keon a wing. He can guard 1 or 2 and limited 3. He plays on the perimeter. He has some limitations based on length but he clearly is a wing.

Length really isn’t the main issue with Keon. His main deficiency is his strength. Guy gets bodied by a lot of bulkier guys simple because he’s too skinny.

 

[fansinceday1]

Talk post Cousins trade was that Vivek got wishy washy at the 25th hour about maxing him out and told Vlade to trade him for Buddy (he's the next Klay!), not necessarily that it was a tank move.

Luke stuck it out because he was Vlade's buddy, the fact that he happened to be a great tank commander was just a lucky accident.

I'll concede the Joerger point though! You've unlocked a hazy memory about our FO wanting to give up that season and jockey for lotto positioning.

Like Carmichael Dave said this morning, Vivek will never be up for a full rebuild. This all starts and ends with Vivek.

 

[kingsfan101]

Zero percent chance they fire McNair and retain Christie. Any new GM is going to want his guy on the bench.

I really hope we don't Kangz and fire Monte.

People have short memories, but still, it's too soon and too painful to remember over a decade and a half of irrelevance and incompetence. Monte has been the best (and most successful) GM since Geoff, and it's not even close. We have been competitive the last 3 years, and while we can (and should hope) for better results, I'll take it over what we saw earlier. More importantly, we have most of our assets going forward (and then some), depth at most positions, and a nice combination of vets and prospects. We do need some of your young guys to take a leap for the team to make the jump, or combine some of these assets to try and get a star, but these are possibilities we can at least discuss now, instead of resigning ourselves to lottery odds in January.

I understand the desire of some folks to commit to a full rebuild, and to blame Monte/Vivek for that. I didn't believe that to be a good idea to begin with (we were never able to form a chest of picks that can help you turn things around via the draft quickly), and doubt our ability to pull it off even if it were a good idea. Usually teams that do so are successful teams that go for a reset. Celtics for example, won in 2008, and had good runs over the next few years, before flipping Pierce and KG for picks and prospects that led to the core of the current roster.

Similarly, OKC drafted Durant, Westbook, and Harden (3 future MVPs) in consecutive years from 2007-2009, and reached the Finals in 2012. Had few successful runs despite trading Harden, only to lose Durant to Warriors (facilitated by new TV rights deal). I agree that this analogy is not as accurate as Celtics, since the current core was fueled more by the trades of Westbrook and Paul George.

If we want to do something like that, we will need to trade away not only Domas, but also Deebo, Lavine, and Monk. These are huge salaries for, in many cases, not elite players like KG/Pierce or Westbrook/George. We will need to take back junk to match salaries (not always easy, since often players with such high salaries are producing at a good level. Even our vets are doing that) if we want to be compensated with picks/prospects. Then, we hope that Keon, Carter, and Keegan will like to stick around and grow as franchise centerpieces.

Bottomline, full on rebuild is not easy. It's easier if you have high level stars surrounded by role players. Teams will pay for them. Highly/Reasonably paid good players, not so much.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

I see him as a combo guard

I think combo guard loses it's usefulness as a descriptor, since nowadays, if a player can't shoot, (and they aren't a big), then they're effectively a broken player for the NBA

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think combo guard loses it's usefulness as a descriptor, since nowadays, if a player can't shoot, (and they aren't a big), then they're effectively a broken player for the NBA

Not sure I follow what you're getting at. A combo guard is generally a shooting guard who also has the ability to play as a primary ball handler. Monk would also fit in this category

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Not sure I follow what you're getting at. A combo guard is generally a shooting guard who also has the ability to play as a primary ball handler. Monk would also fit in this category

I think we're just in a glass half-full/glass half-empty situation.

I think a combo guard is a ball handler that can also be a perimeter scoring threat. But these days basically all ball handlers can do that, so the term isn't useful any more

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I ask again y’all really wanna run this bull crap roster that has a ceiling of a 8th seed next year vs trading for Zion? Hilarious!!

Dumbass really traded for Lavine with the thought of starting Lavine, monk, DD, and Sabonis. How do you justify building an all offense group when you don’t even have an elite offensive hub ala harden or Luka. Get Monte ass out of here and rebuild

 

[SLAB]

I LOVE THE LOTTERY!

Maybe when we jump this time we won’t draft a mega bust or a defensive role player!

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

The mythical wing isn’t a horrible defender and your example even proved that

Fair point. I'd call that the mythical 3 and D guy. A non-ball dominant scorer who can defend 2-4. Wait I think I just described Keegan Murray.

 

[twslam07]

This might not be a popular opinion around here, but we’re getting pretty close to my ideal scenario that I called out a month or so ago…

1. Miss the play-in and keep our 2025 1st. We can still trade our 2026 1st (11-30 protected) if we’re making some sort of big move this offseason so I don’t think it hamstrings our flexibility too much other than the 2026 SAC 2nd and 2027 SAC 2nd being tied up since they could convey to ATL still. However, the “2025 CHA 1st” will convey to a 2026 CHA 2nd and a CHA 2027 2nd so we’ll still have some ammunition to throw around
2. Keep Monk, LaVine, & DeRozan “happy.” My concern with benching one of them or having one of them not close out games was that it could turn into a player publicly asking out which would diminish their trade value. If we continue to roll with the lineup everyone knows is extremely flawed, it may help us not lose out on value when we undoubtedly try to move at least one of those guys in the offseason.
3. Don’t allow Keon Ellis to look too attractive. This is related to #2, but by keeping Ellis in this bench role, it may help us keep his next contract lower and resign him on a bargain. Considering he’s only averaging 23.5 mpg this year and we can make him a RFA this offseason, perhaps we can get a good deal.

As I stated a month or so ago, none of these positives listed above help us this year but we need to be thinking towards the future or, at the very least, towards next season.

 

[coolhandluke]

We can miss the play-in and still lose the 2025 FRP if a team behind us jumped in the lottery and we dropped below #12. The FRP is only Top-12 protected. If we are going the other way, we may have to actively tank the last few games to give us some buffer and a better chance.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

I really hope we don't Kangz and fire Monte.

People have short memories, but still, it's too soon and too painful to remember over a decade and a half of irrelevance and incompetence. Monte has been the best (and most successful) GM since Geoff, and it's not even close. We have been competitive the last 3 years, and while we can (and should hope) for better results, I'll take it over what we saw earlier. More importantly, we have most of our assets going forward (and then some), depth at most positions, and a nice combination of vets and prospects. We do need some of your young guys to take a leap for the team to make the jump, or combine some of these assets to try and get a star, but these are possibilities we can at least discuss now, instead of resigning ourselves to lottery odds in January.

I understand the desire of some folks to commit to a full rebuild, and to blame Monte/Vivek for that. I didn't believe that to be a good idea to begin with (we were never able to form a chest of picks that can help you turn things around via the draft quickly), and doubt our ability to pull it off even if it were a good idea. Usually teams that do so are successful teams that go for a reset. Celtics for example, won in 2008, and had good runs over the next few years, before flipping Pierce and KG for picks and prospects that led to the core of the current roster.

Similarly, OKC drafted Durant, Westbook, and Harden (3 future MVPs) in consecutive years from 2007-2009, and reached the Finals in 2012. Had few successful runs despite trading Harden, only to lose Durant to Warriors (facilitated by new TV rights deal). I agree that this analogy is not as accurate as Celtics, since the current core was fueled more by the trades of Westbrook and Paul George.

If we want to do something like that, we will need to trade away not only Domas, but also Deebo, Lavine, and Monk. These are huge salaries for, in many cases, not elite players like KG/Pierce or Westbrook/George. We will need to take back junk to match salaries (not always easy, since often players with such high salaries are producing at a good level. Even our vets are doing that) if we want to be compensated with picks/prospects. Then, we hope that Keon, Carter, and Keegan will like to stick around and grow as franchise centerpieces.

Bottomline, full on rebuild is not easy. It's easier if you have high level stars surrounded by role players. Teams will pay for them. Highly/Reasonably paid good players, not so much.

Firing Monte will be in the same class of mistake as firing Malone.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Fair point. I'd call that the mythical 3 and D guy. A non-ball dominant scorer who can defend 2-4. Wait I think I just described Keegan Murray.

Ya most teams have multiple of those guys the other teams are losing Laveria was a nice start

 

[Kingster]

And I think you might be overestimating the willingness of a competent GM to be willing to accept the job without being given assurances that he can hire his own personnel. Or do you expect Ranadivé to fire McNair and then turn around and downgrade at the position? Because nobody who's more competent than he is is going to take the job just to be a figurehead.

I expect a committee approach. Bring in three guys and have them take a vote. Then do a trial run with media, Drapier and Kayte for example, to take the political temperature. Then after the vote Vivek will approve or not based on his limited knowledge of the day and a vote will be taken from the GM group on who should give the news to the media a week after the decision is made.

 

[sactowndog]

Firing Monte will be in the same class of mistake as firing Malone.

 

[captain bill]

Firing Monte will be in the same class of mistake as firing Malone.

My guess is the ship has already sailed. Firing MB was likely a FO decision, now he’s just serving out the remainder of his sentence here.

Hopefully he lands on his feet somewhere. I expect he’ll be a hot prospect for another organization but may unfortunately not get a shot at the catbird seat again.

And of course word gets out so we likely won’t be seriously considered for any of the top up and coming management candidates

 

[NewArena]

We’ll never know what could’ve been with a healthy Sabonis and Monk but I’m encouraged by a lot of what i did see

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1904753755360284701

some people have a weird definition of fun.

 

[SLAB]

I miss the DeMarcus years.