Monte and Trades - Split off from Davion Thread

[sactowndog]

I’m sure Monte knew they would only have 2 in short order. The bigger question to me is should a guy who has no path to start be taken with a top ten pick. Having said that, Monte has shown that he plans to mostly build through trades and that he largely sees draft picks outside of the top of the draft as ancillary pieces.

for a guy planning to build via trades he doesn’t exactly have a stellar record with them.

Monte’s strengths have been in picks. As for trades he has mostly wasted 2nd round picks and failed to get much value for the rest. Bogi and Buddy being two examples.

 

[gunks]

for a guy planning to build via trades he doesn’t exactly have a stellar record with them.

Monte’s strengths have been in picks. As for trades he has mostly wasted 2nd round picks and failed to get much value for the rest. Bogi and Buddy being two examples.

Monte literally made us a playoff team for the first time in over a decade and a half with the Hali trade. I think he's doing alright.

 

[sactowndog]

Monte literally made us a playoff team for the first time in over a decade and a half with the Hali trade. I think he's doing alright.

I don’t think you can reasonably judge a persons trading ability with 1 trade over 1 years time period.

but even if you accept that was a very good trade which many still do not let’s look at Monte’s actions:

Pro:
Tyrese Haliburton, Buddy Hield, Tristan Thompson and a TPE were acquired by the Indiana Pacers from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: Justin Holiday, Jeremy Lamb, Domantas Sabonis, a conditional 2023 2nd round pick (IND own) and a TPE.

Chris Duarte was acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Indiana Pacers in exchange for: a 2028 2nd round pick (DAL own) and a 2030 2nd round pick (SAC own).

Kevin Huerter was acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Atlanta Hawks in exchange for: Maurice Harkless, Justin Holiday, a conditional 2024 1st round pick (SAC own) and a TPE

Donte DiVincenzo (waived) , Josh Jackson (waived), Trey Lyles, the draft rights to Ilkan Karaman, the draft rights to David Michineau, a 2024 2nd round pick (SAC own) and a TPE were acquired by the Sacramento Kings in exchange for Marvin Bagley III, the draft rights to Vanja Marinkovic, a 2024 2nd round pick (POR own) and a TPE.

Nemanja Bjelica was acquired by the Miami Heat from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: Maurice Harkless, Chris Silva and a TPE

A conditional 2022 2nd round pick (SAC own) and a TPE were acquired by the Los Angeles Clippers from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: Mfiondu Kabengele, a conditional 2022 2nd round pick (ATL own) and cash.

Dewayne Dedmon, a More Favorable 2020 2nd round pick and a 2021 2nd round pick (MIA own) were acquired by the Atlanta Hawks from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: Alex Len, Jabari Parker and a TPE

Con:
The draft rights to Dimitrios Agravanis and a TPE were acquired by the Milwaukee Bucks from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: Robin Lopez and cash.

The draft rights to Luka Mitrovic and a TPE were acquired by the Los Angeles Clippers from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: Filip Petrusev and cash.

Richaun Holmes and the draft rights to Olivier-Maxence Prosper were acquired by the Dallas Mavericks from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: cash and a TPE.

Tristan Thompson was acquired by the Sacramento Kings in exchange for Delon Wright. Delon Wright and a TPE were acquired by the Atlanta Hawks in exchange for Kris Dunn, Bruno Fernando and a 2023 2nd round pick (POR own). Kris Dunn, Bruno Fernando, a 2023 2nd round pick (POR own) and a TPE were acquired by the Boston Celtics in exchange for Tristan Thompson and multiple TPEs.

Delon Wright and a TPE were acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Detroit Pistons in exchange for: Cory Joseph, a 2021 2nd round pick (LAL own) and a 2024 2nd round pick (SAC own).

Terence Davis was acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Toronto Raptors in exchange for: a 2021 2nd round pick (MEM own) and a TPE.

Bogdan Bogdanovic, previously with the Sacramento Kings, became a free agent

The draft rights to Robert Woodard II was acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Memphis Grizzlies in exchange for: the draft rights to Xavier Tillman, Sr. and a Swap 2022 2nd round picks.

not trading Barnes to Boston for Aaron Nesmith and a first. And yes I know for a fact this trade was on the table.

Unknown

The draft rights to Colby Jones was acquired by the Sacramento Kings from the Boston Celtics in exchange for: the draft rights to Jordan Walsh and a 2024 2nd round pick (DAL own).

The draft rights to David Michineau and a TPE were acquired by the Brooklyn Nets from the Sacramento Kings in exchange for: Kessler Edwards and cash.

 

[gunks]

I don’t think you can reasonably judge a persons trading ability with 1 trade over 1 years time period.

Bogi deal got messed up by Bucks, Buddy went with Hali. Good riddance to both those scrubs btw.

Bagley for Lyles was pretty great.

Honestly, Vlade didn't leave Monte much to work with. My only gripe was not trading HB when he was a hot commodity.

 

[sactowndog]

Bogi deal got messed up by Bucks, Buddy went with Hali. Good riddance to both those scrubs btw.

Bagley for Lyles was pretty great.

Honestly, Vlade didn't leave Monte much to work with. My only gripe was not trading HB when he was a hot commodity.

letting Bogi walk for nothing was a clear con.

Buddy you can debate but considering Indiana got Furkan Korkmaz and two second-round picks for him and most call the Hali/Sabonis at best equal either getting nothing for Buddy or the Hali trade has to be a negative.

 

[The_Jamal]

letting Bogi walk for nothing was a clear con.

Buddy you can debate but considering Indiana got Furkan Korkmaz and two second-round picks for him and most call the Hali/Sabonis at best equal either getting nothing for Buddy or the Hali trade has to be a negative.

Your framing of Monte remains unreal. It cracks me up you're trying victory lap Monte being a bad GM, when's he overseen the ONLY good 1.5 year stretch of Kings basketball in 30 years

Buddy's salary was needed to bring Domas back over. Remember, we took swings at Holiday and Lamb as potential wing upgrades. Just didn't work out. Saying we lost Buddy for nothing is just not the truth. Straight up.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Your framing of Monte remains unreal. It cracks me up you're trying victory lap Monte being a bad GM, when's he overseen the ONLY good 1.5 year stretch of Kings basketball in 30 years.

Umm, 20 years? I'm not THAT old yet!

 

[The_Jamal]

Umm, 20 years? I'm not THAT old yet!

I'm trying the new thing around KF.com where I embellish any scenario as much as possible to really hammer home how right my point is.

 

[sactowndog]

Your framing of Monte remains unreal. It cracks me up you're trying victory lap Monte being a bad GM, when's he overseen the ONLY good 1.5 year stretch of Kings basketball in 30 years

Buddy's salary was needed to bring Domas back over. Remember, we took swings at Holiday and Lamb as potential wing upgrades. Just didn't work out. Saying we lost Buddy for nothing is just not the truth. Straight up.

no in essence Buddy off set Holiday or Lamb which were two players we cut.

 

[sactowndog]

Umm, 20 years? I'm not THAT old yet!

yeah was going to point out even 20 years was a stretch. In 2004-05 the team won 50 games. So if he wanted to say 15 years he would be accurate.

Basically his whole post was inaccurate. Indiana got 2 2nds and Korkmaz we got someone we let go after a couple years

 

[iowamcnabb]

yeah was going to point out even 20 years was a stretch. In 2004-05 the team won 50 games. So if he wanted to say 15 years he would be accurate.

Basically his whole post was inaccurate. Indiana got 2 2nds and Korkmaz we got someone we let go after a couple years

we got a second rounder in the Domas trade too. That pick was used to get Colby Jones. It remains to be seen if he works out but considering how good that draft was and how high Colby was on most mock drafts you could make an argument he got first round value.

imo Monte’s wins are

Hali
Domas
Brown
Keegan
Monk
Lyles
Huerter
Keon

his losses

past second rounders
Davion- if he finds a way to shoot 40 percent from 3 and is either a permanent part of the rotation or a solid trade piece he could crawl out of loss and be labeled as mid
If the HB trade was really Nesmith and a first that would be a loss. We don’t know for sure that was the deal though.
Wright for TT

Mid moves

I’m putting the trade of the ‘23 pick here. I totally get why he did it. Wanted flexibility to sign a big time free agent if one became available and it ultimately allowed us to have Domas locked in with none of that hanging over our heads. Would have been nice to have one more young player in a good draft to add in future trade package.

rest of the moves are either insignificant or not enough data to make a determination

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Indiana got 2 2nds and Korkmaz we got someone we let go after a couple years

You do realize that Indiana immediately waived Korkmaz?

no in essence Buddy off set Holiday or Lamb which were two players we cut.

It kind of looks like you're trying too hard here. Hield was a necessary salary piece in the Hali/Sabonis trade. This wasn't a Justin Holiday/Tyler Lamb trade. Hali was making $4M, Domas was making $18.5M. The trade was NOT happening without a salary offset of Sabonis. Holiday and Lamb were the cost of doing business. We weren't going to be getting a whole lot for Hield otherwise in any case. Dude can shoot, but he plays less-than-zero defense and manages to bonehead a play about once every ten times down the court. There are zero people here saying "Man, I wish we still had Buddy Hield!"

 

[Tetsujin]

You do realize that Indiana immediately waived Korkmaz?



It kind of looks like you're trying too hard here. Hield was a necessary salary piece in the Hali/Sabonis trade. This wasn't a Justin Holiday/Tyler Lamb trade. Hali was making $4M, Domas was making $18.5M. The trade was NOT happening without a salary offset of Sabonis. Holiday and Lamb were the cost of doing business. We weren't going to be getting a whole lot for Hield otherwise in any case. Dude can shoot, but he plays less-than-zero defense and manages to bonehead a play about once every ten times down the court. There are zero people here saying "Man, I wish we still had Buddy Hield!"

Yeah but we could have had two extra second round picks (which he inevitably would have complained about us moving or picking someone other than who he wanted with) and a guy currently just sorta floating around on the buyout market because no one really seems to want him instead of the expiring salary of Jeremy Lamb, a contract that we flipped with a first for Kevin Huerter (who is pretty much 90% of Buddy’s offense without the headaches and 200% better defensive effort), and non-All-Star Domantas Sabonis.

 

[sactowndog]

You do realize that Indiana immediately waived Korkmaz?



It kind of looks like you're trying too hard here. Hield was a necessary salary piece in the Hali/Sabonis trade. This wasn't a Justin Holiday/Tyler Lamb trade. Hali was making $4M, Domas was making $18.5M. The trade was NOT happening without a salary offset of Sabonis. Holiday and Lamb were the cost of doing business. We weren't going to be getting a whole lot for Hield otherwise in any case. Dude can shoot, but he plays less-than-zero defense and manages to bonehead a play about once every ten times down the court. There are zero people here saying "Man, I wish we still had Buddy Hield!"

as state in the summary Tristin Thompson was also in the trade. So given the centerpiece was Sabonis and Hali, you could easily added filler to Hali and Thompson to get Sabonis.

Indiana got 2 seconds for him. We got two guys we waived which I consider a net negative trade by not getting more for Buddy.

 

[sactowndog]

Yeah but we could have had two extra second round picks (which he inevitably would have complained about us moving or picking someone other than who he wanted with) and a guy currently just sorta floating around on the buyout market because no one really seems to want him instead of the expiring salary of Jeremy Lamb, a contract that we flipped with a first for Kevin Huerter (who is pretty much 90% of Buddy’s offense without the headaches and 200% better defensive effort), and non-All-Star Domantas Sabonis.

they are assets. I just looking at did the trade net us an asset still in use 2 years later.

 

[sactowndog]

we got a second rounder in the Domas trade too. That pick was used to get Colby Jones. It remains to be seen if he works out but considering how good that draft was and how high Colby was on most mock drafts you could make an argument he got first round value.
True the 2nd was some value for Buddy, if you want to move from the cons getting nothing for Buddy based on that.
imo Monte’s wins are

Hali - not a trade
Domas
Brown - ???
Keegan - not a trade
Monk - not a trade
Lyles
Huerter
Keon - not a trade

The comment was not about drafting acumen it was about trades.

his losses

past second rounders
Davion- if he finds a way to shoot 40 percent from 3 and is either a permanent part of the rotation or a solid trade piece he could crawl out of loss and be labeled as mid - not a trade

If the HB trade was really Nesmith and a first that would be a loss. We don’t know for sure that was the deal though. - I know it for a fact
Wright for TT

Mid moves

I’m putting the trade of the ‘23 pick here. I totally get why he did it. Wanted flexibility to sign a big time free agent if one became available and it ultimately allowed us to have Domas locked in with none of that hanging over our heads. Would have been nice to have one more young player in a good draft to add in future trade package.

rest of the moves are either insignificant or not enough data to make a determination

I put the entire list of trades. Wasting seconds on guys you waive or let walk for nothing isn’t insignificant for a small market team. The best small market teams get value from 2nds.

 

[sactowndog]

Yeah but we could have had two extra second round picks (which he inevitably would have complained about us moving or picking someone other than who he wanted with) and a guy currently just sorta floating around on the buyout market because no one really seems to want him instead of the expiring salary of Jeremy Lamb, a contract that we flipped with a first for Kevin Huerter (who is pretty much 90% of Buddy’s offense without the headaches and 200% better defensive effort), and non-All-Star Domantas Sabonis.

I called the Huerter trade a plus. I gave a reasonable take on each transaction some of which a non homer board would disagree with as pluses.

 

[Tetsujin]

as state in the summary Tristin Thompson was also in the trade. So given the centerpiece was Sabonis and Hali, you could easily added filler to Hali and Thompson to get Sabonis.

Indiana got 2 seconds for him. We got two guys we waived which I consider a net negative trade by not getting more for Buddy.

We waived neither of those guys

 

[The_Jamal]

We waived neither of those guys

Does he think we did two separate trades or something with Indy?

I'm not entirely sure why he's separating out the Domas trade. It couldn't be to try and make his point look valid could it? Nooooooooooo

Regardless, he's just wrong. Justin Holiday was then flipped to acquire Kevin Huerter. So even if you wanted to make the dumb argument that we traded Buddy for Holiday/Lamb for some reason, we still didn't lose him for nothing. We also got a look at 2 wings, something this team has desperately needed (which this certain poster has crucified Monte for, but now for some reason, is bashing him for acquiring?)

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Indiana got 2 seconds for him. We got two guys we waived which I consider a net negative trade by not getting more for Buddy.

Almost certainly one of the reasons that Buddy didn't manage to bring in more (I mean, you know, other than facilitating a trade for Sabonis) on the trade market is that he had 2.5 years and a prorated ~$50M left on his contract. Dude was checked out and we owed him some serious money. So even if you're right - even if the return for Buddy could have been better by two second-round picks two years down the road (when his contract was finally expiring) - it would have cost us ~$40M in salary on a checked-out player to get those picks. No thank you. Seriously. No thank you. Small market franchises need second round picks, I guess, but small market franchises also have much better ways of spending $40M.

The addition-by-subtraction of Buddy at that moment was much better for our franchise than two second-round picks $40M later would have been. It's kind of hard to argue with the results - we immediately turned around and became a playoff team.

 

[sactowndog]

We waived neither of those guys[/QUOTE

let me be more precise neither are contributing to Kings winning

 

[sactowndog]

Almost certainly one of the reasons that Buddy didn't manage to bring in more (I mean, you know, other than facilitating a trade for Sabonis) on the trade market is that he had 2.5 years and a prorated ~$50M left on his contract. Dude was checked out and we owed him some serious money. So even if you're right - even if the return for Buddy could have been better by two second-round picks two years down the road (when his contract was finally expiring) - it would have cost us ~$40M in salary on a checked-out player to get those picks. No thank you. Seriously. No thank you. Small market franchises need second round picks, I guess, but small market franchises also have much better ways of spending $40M.

The addition-by-subtraction of Buddy at that moment was much better for our franchise than two second-round picks $40M later would have been. It's kind of hard to argue with the results - we immediately turned around and became a playoff team.

fine I’m not going to the mat over this one happy to remove getting nothing for Buddy from the con list. It’s already long enough as it is.

 

[sactowndog]

Just for contrast see this series of trades by OKC:



Ersan Ilyasova, PF
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Orlando (ORL) with Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis for Serge Ibaka


Jerami Grant, PF
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Philadelphia (PHI) for Ersan Ilyasova and 2020 1st round pick [top-20 protected]


Paul George, SG
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Indiana (IND) for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis


Jerami Grant, PF
Traded to Denver (DEN) from Oklahoma City (OKC) for 2020 1st round pick [top-10 protected 2020, 2021, 2022, coveys to two second-rounders if not in 2022]


JUL 10 2019
Paul George, SG
Traded to LA (LAC) from Oklahoma City (OKC) for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, 2021 1st round pick [unprotected MIA pick] , 2022 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick] , 2023 1st round pick [top-14 protected MIA pick] , 2023 1st round pick [right to swap] , 2024 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick] , 2025 1st round pick [right to swap] and 2026 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick]


Danilo Gallinari, PF
Traded to Atlanta (ATL) from Oklahoma City (OKC) with $750k for 2028 2nd round pick [conditional]


to turn Serge Ibaka into all that is some first level wheeling and dealing

 

[Tetsujin]

Just for contrast see this series of trades by OKC:



Ersan Ilyasova, PF
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Orlando (ORL) with Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis for Serge Ibaka


Jerami Grant, PF
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Philadelphia (PHI) for Ersan Ilyasova and 2020 1st round pick [top-20 protected]


Paul George, SG
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Indiana (IND) for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis


Jerami Grant, PF
Traded to Denver (DEN) from Oklahoma City (OKC) for 2020 1st round pick [top-10 protected 2020, 2021, 2022, coveys to two second-rounders if not in 2022]


JUL 10 2019
Paul George, SG
Traded to LA (LAC) from Oklahoma City (OKC) for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, 2021 1st round pick [unprotected MIA pick] , 2022 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick] , 2023 1st round pick [top-14 protected MIA pick] , 2023 1st round pick [right to swap] , 2024 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick] , 2025 1st round pick [right to swap] and 2026 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick]


Danilo Gallinari, PF
Traded to Atlanta (ATL) from Oklahoma City (OKC) with $750k for 2028 2nd round pick [conditional]


to turn Serge Ibaka into all that is some first level wheeling and dealing

1- Serge Ibaka was in contention for the best defensive big in the league When the Thunder traded him. Buddy was in contention for most self-righteously defensive player in the league.
2- There were also other pieces involved in those trades beyond literally just the pieces they got for Serge from an extremely desperate Magic team (a “bust” who turned into an All-Star in Indiana before his legs decided to stop working and a guy who’s on pace for the Hall of Fame in Domantas Sabonis)

also the Clippers trade only happened because Paul George demanded to go to the Clippers to play with Kawhi and Shai and picks were pretty much the only pieces Jerry West could move to make that work.

 

[sactowndog]

1- Serge Ibaka was in contention for the best defensive big in the league When the Thunder traded him. Buddy was in contention for most self-righteously defensive player in the league.
2- There were also other pieces involved in those trades beyond literally just the pieces they got for Serge from an extremely desperate Magic team (a “bust” who turned into an All-Star in Indiana before his legs decided to stop working and a guy who’s on pace for the Hall of Fame in Domantas Sabonis)

also the Clippers trade only happened because Paul George demanded to go to the Clippers to play with Kawhi and Shai and picks were pretty much the only pieces Jerry West could move to make that work.

you can make all the excuses you want but those set of trades are damn good regardless.

 

[Tetsujin]

you can make all the excuses you want but those set of trades are damn good regardless.

Sure but The Thunder trading Serge Ibaka the literal month before his production fell off a cliff for two future all-stars because the Magic GM was desperately trying to not get fired has jackcrap to do with the Kings including Buddy Hield’s terrible contract with Tyrese to complete a trade for Domantas Sabonis.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I'm sure Monte could have done an OKC rebuild if it was 2005 and we had just shipped Webber.

It wasn't an option in the middle of a 17 year playoff drought.

We're still looking at potentially winning 50 games this season even if that doesn't translate to a top 4 seed this year. We still have more time than a few of the teams ahead of us, and after we give up the Huerter pick we own all our picks plus have a few extra seconds still. We're not over any of the aprons. We're still flexible in NBA terms despite having long term security on our core players.

Why can't we be happy? Do people forget that the 99-00 season wasn't exactly a spectacular follow up to 99, we dipped a bit then made huge leaps the next two years. We didn't even trade for Bibby until 3 seasons in. We can afford to be patient to get the right piece.

 

[sactowndog]

Sure but The Thunder trading Serge Ibaka the literal month before his production fell off a cliff for two future all-stars because the Magic GM was desperately trying to not get fired has jackcrap to do with the Kings including Buddy Hield’s terrible contract with Tyrese to complete a trade for Domantas Sabonis.

it’s an example of someone who is recognized as a very good trader of assets. I get you are blindly aligned to Monte and he is the be all to end all just like you were with Vlade when we had these same darn discussions 5 years ago.

Now I’m not saying Monte is a horrible GM or that he is Vlade. He has done pretty well at drafting with a couple exceptions but his record on trades is not exemplary. Presti is an example who across the board utilizes trades to clear advantage. Turning Ibaka into what he did is pretty damn legendary.

 

[Tetsujin]

it’s an example of someone who is recognized as a very good trader of assets. I get you are blindly aligned to Monte and he is the be all to end all just like you were with Vlade when we had these same darn discussions 5 years ago.

Now I’m not saying Monte is a horrible GM or that he is Vlade. He has done pretty well at drafting with a couple exceptions but his record on trades is not exemplary. Presti is an example who across the board utilizes trades to clear advantage. Turning Ibaka into what he did is pretty damn legendary.

he packaged the assets acquired in the Ibaka trade with other assets just like how Monte packaged the guys “traded for Buddy” with other assets though so I literally cannot fathom what sort of asinine point you’re trying to make.

If we’re going with the narrative that Presti turned Ibaka into SGA and a bunch of picks that he still has in his war chest but are pretty much worthless now because he accumulated so many draft assets that people know he has to get rid of them then wouldn’t the same narrative be that Monte turned Buddy Hield into Kevin Huerter, Malik Monk, and Colby Jones?
As an A’s fan, I’m well versed in the idea of looking at cascading trades as some sort of galaxy brained 4D chess thing but sometimes a spade is just a spade?

 

[sactowndog]

he packaged the assets acquired in the Ibaka trade with other assets just like how Monte packaged the guys “traded for Buddy” with other assets though so I literally cannot fathom what sort of asinine point you’re trying to make.

If we’re going with the narrative that Presti turned Ibaka into SGA and a bunch of picks that he still has in his war chest but are pretty much worthless now because he accumulated so many draft assets that people know he has to get rid of them then wouldn’t the same narrative be that Monte turned Buddy Hield into Kevin Huerter, Malik Monk, and Colby Jones?
As an A’s fan, I’m well versed in the idea of looking at cascading trades as some sort of galaxy brained 4D chess thing but sometimes a spade is just a spade?

each trade he dramatically improved the team.

one of those Clipper picks became Jalen Williams who finished second in ROY voting last year…

Just turning Serge Ibaka into SGA and Jalen Williams is Fing amazing…..

Still to come: 2024 first-round pick (unprotected from Clippers), right to swap with Clippers in 2025, 2025 first-round pick (lottery protected via Miami, becomes unprotected in 2026 if it doesn’t convey in 2025), 2025 second-round pick (protected via Atlanta), 2026 first-round pick (unprotected from Clippers).

why don’t you just admit you have absolutely zero objectivity related to anything Kings.