Missing what we had with Webber...
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KP
Starter
Wow I got to this thread late, lots of stuff being said. Right off the bat I gotta say the first post rocked. With TD going down, (maybe for the rest/most of the reg season Iv'e been hearing), we really could have used Webber. He's gone and we have to press on, but that doesn't mean we can't analyze the effect the trade has had on our team. Here are some things "I think" have been proven to be wrong that some people believed... #1 This team moves the ball better on offense without Webber, we are avg over 5 assists less a game and nearly 6 pts. less a game without him. #2 The team would rebound better with the new guys, we are still getting outrebounded nearly every game(9 of 12) at a differential of around -2. (what it's been pretty much all season). #3 Webbers domination of the ball hurt Pejas game... Peja should get more shots cuz he's such a better shooter. If you've been watching, No explanation needed. #4 we will be a "WAY" better interior Defending team without Webb, sorry to say it but although we may be slightly better, especially at shotblocking, we still give up a ton of points in the paint every game. In fact we have been outscored in the paint in 9 out of 12 games since the trade, We are def faster but way undersized, and In my personal opinion even though Tag might help It would not be enough to make a significant difference because you'd be giving up scoring in the paint on the other end. Myth #6 is a more of Philli Myth perpetuated by Napier and some others on Khtk... Philly is a much worse team since the trade, They were 3 games under .500 on the season before getting Webb they are 6-5 in games he's played in, as well as silently sliding into the 8th spot. Even if they don't win their division(unlikely now) They'll prob make the playoffs.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
KP said:
I don't think anyone had the idea that right after the trade our offense would run as smooth or our overall game would exceed what it once was. This team will do better in the playoffs, I truely believe that. Not to mention how hard it is to judge how well we are doing, the injury thing is just too overwhelming. At full strength this team is better than before the trade.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
SacTownKid said:
All evidence to the contrary. I believe in the Easter Bunny too.
As someone who vocally opposed the trade I have to say that I have changed my mind. While this team was better and would be better for this year with Webb, the fact is that both he and B52 were high post bigs in a system that runs through the high post bigs. They were two of the best big man passers in the league, both could hit the mid range jumper.
Given the fact that having two starting high post bigs is really one too many for a balanced offense, realistically one of them should go long term. Of the two, Webber was older, played slightly worse defense, and certainly had more injury concerns.
At the time I was mad because I thought we got nothing back, but Brian Skinner and Kenny Thomas, have proven me wrong on that front, and we could have a killer low post 4 rotation with Brad at the 5 when he returns.
Just to stop the argument ahead of time, I KNOW Vlade was a high post center, and he played with Webb, but that was before the injury when Webb could still go inside occasionally, and Vlade also was more of a low post presense than B52.
Given the fact that having two starting high post bigs is really one too many for a balanced offense, realistically one of them should go long term. Of the two, Webber was older, played slightly worse defense, and certainly had more injury concerns.
At the time I was mad because I thought we got nothing back, but Brian Skinner and Kenny Thomas, have proven me wrong on that front, and we could have a killer low post 4 rotation with Brad at the 5 when he returns.
Just to stop the argument ahead of time, I KNOW Vlade was a high post center, and he played with Webb, but that was before the injury when Webb could still go inside occasionally, and Vlade also was more of a low post presense than B52.
Catalyst
G-League
HndsmCelt said:
Here's a quote from Sportsline.com about Webber's injury.
"Webber's problem is not believed to be long-term and is characterized by a loss of movement or sensation in the foot, leg and toes. It can be caused by trauma to the knee or by something as simple as habitual leg-crossing or pressure to the knee from wearing high boots. He is questionable for Wednesday's game against the Pistons."
Questionable, so it doesn't sound too serious.
Kingsgurl
Starter
It's my belief that you really can't use CURRENT injuries to validate either side of the trade argument.
To put it another way- Let's say you live on C st. To get home, you can take either A st. or B st. Today, you decide to take A st. Some fool runs the light and T-bones you at the intersection. Would this same accident have occured had you taken B st instead? Even if B st. had no light? Were you 'fated' to be involved in that accident no matter what?
Take the Brian Skinner injury, just for example, would he have jammed both thumbs sitting on Philly's bench? Perhaps tripping over a towel on the way back to his seat after a time out?
Maybe there was just something 'wrong' with Brad's leg and he would have broken it that day in practice no matter what, but that seems a little hard for me to believe, as he isn't some 80 year old geriatic with brittle bones and serious calcium deficiencies. Supposedly, he incurred the original injury in either the Philly or Washington game, a game in which he was playing with the new guys. Perhaps it wouldn't have happened at all.
Would Webb be having the problem he is having now if OBrien wasn't making them run full contact practices? Who knows?
To put it another way- Let's say you live on C st. To get home, you can take either A st. or B st. Today, you decide to take A st. Some fool runs the light and T-bones you at the intersection. Would this same accident have occured had you taken B st instead? Even if B st. had no light? Were you 'fated' to be involved in that accident no matter what?
Take the Brian Skinner injury, just for example, would he have jammed both thumbs sitting on Philly's bench? Perhaps tripping over a towel on the way back to his seat after a time out?
Maybe there was just something 'wrong' with Brad's leg and he would have broken it that day in practice no matter what, but that seems a little hard for me to believe, as he isn't some 80 year old geriatic with brittle bones and serious calcium deficiencies. Supposedly, he incurred the original injury in either the Philly or Washington game, a game in which he was playing with the new guys. Perhaps it wouldn't have happened at all.
Would Webb be having the problem he is having now if OBrien wasn't making them run full contact practices? Who knows?
bigbadred00
Starter
HOw is the team much better? Please explain it to me. Are we winning? NO. Maybe in 2 years we might be better, but now? We haven't been winning that many games, we are playing around 500 ball for the last 2 months with and without him. And alot of those wins including the Clippers game we stole in the 4th quarter and OT.
bigbadred00
Starter
I guess so......
F
Fillmoe
Guest
the point everyone loves to neglect on this forum........................
Dallas- No thomas, williamson, skinner(due to trade not finalized) or peja
Philly- No peja
Washington- No peja
Charlotte- No peja, miller, songaila
Orlando- No miller
Miami- No miller
Detroit- No miller, mobley
Memphis- No miller, mobley, thomas(personal reasons)
La Clippers- No miller
Houston- No miller
Orlando- No miller
GS- No miller
La Clippers- No miller
GS- Willamson, Mobley, Skinner(for 2nd half)
*Bobby Jackson, on injured list
its hard to get to know each other as a team when people are in and out of injuries. the last 8 games we are 5-3, the team is beginning to figure out they are gonna have to get the job done with certain people out of the lineup. Once those people come back i think we are gonna be a good team
Dallas- No thomas, williamson, skinner(due to trade not finalized) or peja
Philly- No peja
Washington- No peja
Charlotte- No peja, miller, songaila
Orlando- No miller
Miami- No miller
Detroit- No miller, mobley
Memphis- No miller, mobley, thomas(personal reasons)
La Clippers- No miller
Houston- No miller
Orlando- No miller
GS- No miller
La Clippers- No miller
GS- Willamson, Mobley, Skinner(for 2nd half)
*Bobby Jackson, on injured list
its hard to get to know each other as a team when people are in and out of injuries. the last 8 games we are 5-3, the team is beginning to figure out they are gonna have to get the job done with certain people out of the lineup. Once those people come back i think we are gonna be a good team
Twix
Starter
Thanks for the list, Fillmoe. I believe Brad's injury is what's hurting. Last season, when Brad and Webb was out, at least we had Vlade. This season, no one to run that option. Seeing the Kings at full strength this season looks like it won't happen...so we'll never know how good the team is. If the team was at full strength (with Brad and Bobby off the IL) and lose against non-playoff team, then I'll start worrying more... but I don't think the sky will be falling though.
mikebibby1034
Bench
KP said:
yeah this pretty much somes it up and i agree with everything!
KP
Starter
We've had injuries all season every season and we've always managed to play better than we are right now. You think the Kings have never been decimated with injuries before? Point is we used to have enough talent to win a high percentage of games despite those injuries.You can say we don't know how good they will be with everybody healthy, and thats true. Of course it's all conjecture at this point. It's just my opinion that we are a completely different team now. Even when Brad comes back you will never see these guys move the ball the way you have the last few years. To say you know for a fact that they will be better when they haven't been up to this point, and they still don't have Brad or Bobby back, is just as much an opinion too... since there is absolutely no evidence yet to back it up. There is evidence to the contrary though which I already pointed out. It's been 12 games... we'll def know more after the playoffs. But so far... I miss what we had with Webber.
The bottom line, for now, is that there is absolutely no evidence that supports that our team is better now. None. KP made the case quite well. All of the good things that were supposed to have happened have not happened.
There are hopes, dreams, and, since the reality doesn't fit what some hoped the trades would bring, excuses. Question yourself honestly to determine if Brad's presence would change many of the key issues that KP pointed out. Maybe one, probably no more.
And Kingsgurl is right in that judging the "success" of the roster shuffling by peeking to the opposing team's box scores proves nothing. It doesn't matter what another player does in another system (great or awful or injured)...in another time and space... You can't project that back to here with certainty. All you can do is look at the players WE have NOW and see how they have changed things for US. Even with Brad's injury, you can't say it would have happened under another set of team circumstances, unless you just believe in fate.
KP picked out the key issues that were brought up about how this team should have been better and showed that they have not really changed, or perhaps gotten worse. So far, that's the only true indicator, including W-L record, that we have to latch on to.
There are hopes, dreams, and, since the reality doesn't fit what some hoped the trades would bring, excuses. Question yourself honestly to determine if Brad's presence would change many of the key issues that KP pointed out. Maybe one, probably no more.
And Kingsgurl is right in that judging the "success" of the roster shuffling by peeking to the opposing team's box scores proves nothing. It doesn't matter what another player does in another system (great or awful or injured)...in another time and space... You can't project that back to here with certainty. All you can do is look at the players WE have NOW and see how they have changed things for US. Even with Brad's injury, you can't say it would have happened under another set of team circumstances, unless you just believe in fate.
KP picked out the key issues that were brought up about how this team should have been better and showed that they have not really changed, or perhaps gotten worse. So far, that's the only true indicator, including W-L record, that we have to latch on to.
G_M
Starter
1kingzfan said:
The painful reality of the "business" side of basketball is that sometimes moves are made without regard to immediate improvement of the team. Usually, a trade is made with the hope that it will give a team the lift it needs to get to the next level. Or, trades are financially motivated to put the team in a better financial position.
I do feel bad for those fans who truly believed the (pre-trade) Kings trade could win a championship this year. I did not feel that way. I can appreciate the notion that we were closer than we are now. I remain a huge fan of the trade based simply on the fact that Webber had a huge contact and a bad knee. I think it reasonable to believe his physical condition will only further decline while his contract $$ increases.
As a fan you have to put faith in the organization. I believe the Maloofs want to win a championship. I believe Petrie is a GREAT GM. I think Adelman is a very good coach. I feel very fortunate to be a fan of this team and organization.
KingCookie
Bench
IMO, it's not about what this team is doing right now. This team was never going to seriously compete for the O'Brien this year, anyway. This move was about the future. I was just as shocked as anyone when I saw Corliss Williamson, Kenny Thomas, and Brian Skinner (who?) on the other end of the trade, but after watching these guys, I see promising things.
Think about next year, when BobbyJ is back, Brad is healthy, and we've had a nice training camp with these guys. And you know Petrie isn't going to stand pat over the summer. Another piece is on its way...I don't even try to predict Geoff anymore.
In the long run, I truly feel we will look back and say, "It's a good thing we made that move when we did." Have we taken a step back? Sure, for the meantime. But I simply cannot doubt Petrie's moves until he gives me reason to do so...the shock has worn off now, and the new dudes are becoming more and more familiar with their roles and Adelman's style of play. We will be fine.
Think about next year, when BobbyJ is back, Brad is healthy, and we've had a nice training camp with these guys. And you know Petrie isn't going to stand pat over the summer. Another piece is on its way...I don't even try to predict Geoff anymore.
In the long run, I truly feel we will look back and say, "It's a good thing we made that move when we did." Have we taken a step back? Sure, for the meantime. But I simply cannot doubt Petrie's moves until he gives me reason to do so...the shock has worn off now, and the new dudes are becoming more and more familiar with their roles and Adelman's style of play. We will be fine.
A
Archibald
Guest
Webber is gone and he's not coming back. Gotta move on and deal with the team that's on the court.
KingCookie said:
The Kings' fan base has been divided on the issue of the trades, and those that thought we had a chance this year to go all the way opposed the trades, and those that had already given up support the trades.
Initially, but most recently less so, those that supported the trades made numerous claims to show how the Kings were better NOW. Based on how the team has played since February 23, KingCookie's post, and many other recent ones, that position seems to have been modified considerably.
As an 8-year season ticket holder, I have ridden the rise of our team and truly believed, despite our first half shortcomings, that at 34-20 we had done a decent job, and had some work to do that was, in fact, DOABLE by the time the playoffs rolled around. One of our biggest strengths was that our core folks had been in the playoff trenches together and knew what it took to succeed, even though the ultimate prize had still eluded them.
Today, we are left with a group still trying to find themselves and having to do a helluva lot more work to get to where we, as fans, would like them to be this year.
If you have always been OK since Game 1 of this season of not winning it all, then I understand how you feel about where we stand now at Game 69. I, however, am NOT satisfied and feel that this playoff year we are now relegated to a very long shot of a deep playoff run, much less winning the championship.
Petrie, I'm sure, will work some off-season magic to keep us in the hunt, but it will not change the way I feel about what has gone down this season for a long time.
Will I look back and say, "It's a good thing we made that move when we did?" If we advance further than we ever have this season in the playoffs, I think I will be able to easily do it. If we advance further than we ever have next season in the playoffs, I think I will be able to easily do it.
If we take 2 or more seasons to get back to becoming an "elite" team, I will be OK at that time, but will still question whether or not we tossed a chance at a title out the window this year.
Naturally, winning makes all the hurt go away, so I pray that our new era Kings' team in this year's playoffs will come up with that miracle cure for what ails me.
