Missing what we had with Webber...

Catalyst · Mar 21, 2005

It's amazing how much one player can mean to a team. If we were losing the same games we lost recently WITH Webber these would be the most devastating losses we've had since we became a winning team, yet now, expectations are set so much lower.

It still bugs me how much people disrespected how valuable Webb was to this team -- mostly outside of Sacramento. I don't think we were a favorite for a championship ring or anything like that, but with Webb we at least had a chance.

Now I don't even know what kind of team we have. Brad Miller and Mike Bibby are two very nice players to have on your team. But, beyond them what are we looking at?

Mobley can opt out of his contract and bolt. Peja has been a flop all season long, and now other GMs aren't pointing to Webber as the reason he can't play at a high level. His value is rapidly dropping because of his play. Sac's going to be over the cap for at least the next two seasons...

So, what exactly do we have to look forward to? Trades, yeah... we can still do trades, but WHO are we going to trade now? Bibby and Miller should be completely off limits. Peja's on some other world. Bobby J still has value, but he's also injury prone and getting even older... Most GMs would refuse to talk about Kenny Thomas because of his contract. Ostertag has no value.

Maybe I'm missing some stuff here, but what I absolutely DON'T want to see is "Hey, this is Petrie, he'll make something great happen."

Anyone can spout non-specific comments about the future of this team. If you don't have something beyond that to add, don't click reply. Save it for another thread.

Anyway, so, what bright spots for the future of this team do you guys see?

I see us at best as a mid-range playoff team with a healthy Miller and Bibby. Those two guys are great players, but we're going to need more than them to have a shot at a championship. And being a mid-range playoff team doesn't sound all that great.

Heuge · Mar 21, 2005

34-19 before the Webb trade.....7-8 after the Webb trade.

Diehard Jim · Mar 21, 2005

webber is not even playing now, and they are not sure how bad his injury is!

The kings are not going to win a championship this year with or without webb, that much is obvious!

The kings have a good core if they can get it together. if tag can get him self into shape enough for the coach top lay him maybe we can become a much better defensive team.

I do not see any problems with the team that are not brought on by injuries.

The kings lost to a totally hot team on the back of a B2B.

remember the warriors just beat a healthy Phoenix team 2 days ago!

Rowdyone · Mar 21, 2005

I was as much a Webb fan as many and moreso than some but I think the trade was the right thing to do. I think what you're missing is not so much CWebb as it was what he did for our team especially offensively. What we've been missing is the fluid high post direction of our offense that Vlade did for so many years and CWebb followed up doing much the same. With Brad out so much we don't have the high pick and roll to work anymore either. Let's wait until we get healthy to try to determine if the trade damaged that aspect of our game. But the fact remains we bought a Mercedes that in the last two years has lost a trans and rearend...it was time to sell before the engine blows.

Kingsgurl · Mar 21, 2005

Right now I feel like we are driving a Pinto. Least the Mercedes still looked good

skeletor8 · Mar 21, 2005

Diehard Jim said:

Without their best player...I believe Golden State is 0-9 without Jason Richardson. Chris' injury is day-to-day from what I understand. And please, go back and watch some old Jazz vs. Kings games and tell me how good you really think Tag is. And we make other big men look good usually.

Kingsgurl · Mar 21, 2005

Diehard Jim said:

Yes, obviously the Kings aren't going to win a Championship with Webb, since he isn't on the team.

As for Tag, there are deeper issues at work here than if he can find a way to get in shape. For the last 3 or 4 games, he isn't even sitting with the team on the bench. He is sitting several rows back, off to the side, arms folded. This will not get him back in Adelman's good graces.
When we lost to this totally hot team two games ago, weren't THEY the ones on the back to back?

piksi · Mar 21, 2005

We are not going to get anywhere by looking in the past.

"It is what it is" - by Brad Miller (for people not old enough to remember - he plays for us when he is not INJURED like 5 other players at the moment)

Diehard Jim · Mar 21, 2005

I have watch a ton of Jazz games and the guy is not a visualy pleasing person to watch but he is a defensive presence. He is not going to do anything for the Kings offensivly but set picks and get offensive rebounds.

but this is a guy who average in 20 mins around 6 boards and 2 blocks a game. and 3 fouls and most of those are not the kind of fouls where he swipes at a guy and the other player ended up with a and 1! this is the kind of thing the kings need right now to make them a much better defensive team

Webbers injury is day to day, but is is the kind of injury which could very easily turn into a season ending injury. this is not a resting the knee because it is swollen day to day.

Also the kings players hated playing against tag because he is physical, and this is what the kings are missing defensively when skinner is not on the floor.

I am by no means saying that tag is the savior, but his presense for 12-20 mins a night would sure improve the team defesively a ton!

Joker112 · Mar 21, 2005

Webber's injury is probably a lot like Christie's in that they were both much more willing to tough it out here where they were happy. If you aren't getting playing time or appreciation from the fans, it's much easier to succumb to the nagging injuries than to gut it out.

justthisonce · Mar 21, 2005

webber has peroneal neuropathy. i'm not a doctor but from the explanation (just being curious) i got from the net it sounds pretty serious...

common symptoms:

- foot drop
- unable to pull foot or toes up
- no associated pain
- main complaint is tripping, falling

http://www.teleemg.com/guides/per.htm

Stojakovic · Mar 21, 2005

This is not just the effect of Chris Webber's loss. It is the effect of losing 3 people who were the key pieces to the offense we once ran, namely Vlade Divac, Doug Christie and Chris Webber.

Once Brad Miller comes back, this'll look a bit better.

uolj · Mar 21, 2005

I generally think the Webber trade was a bad idea, but there is no way to know one way or the other based on the games since he left since Miller has been injured for almost all of them (and even then the point of the trade didn't appear to be to get better now). The pre/post trade records are as insignificant to the question as the with/without Webber records for the last two years.

I know you don't want non-specific comments about the future of the team, but I think only non-specific comments are appropriate right now. With a Bibby/Stojakovic/Miller core, you have three excellent players. If you have to trade Stojakovic, you still get something great back, because despite his struggles this year I am sure most of the rest of the league still thinks highly of him.

Yes, that leaves you with a mid-range playoff team. But that is really a good place to be at if your core is young. All it takes is finding that one extra piece to bump the team into true championship contender status. What that piece will end up being is difficult to tell now, it might not come this offseason or even the following offseason, but if you can keep a young core good enough to make the playoffs every year and win a playoff series every so often, you are always one step away from being elite. I think that is where this team is headed, and that is where you can find your optimism.

funsc · Mar 21, 2005

We didn't have Brad, Mobley, Williamson or Bobby last night, plus, we just got back from OT in LA. Yeah.. it's a frustrating loss since they didn't have Richardson or Foyle either. We miss #4 but I wouldn't say our loss is due to Webb's absence. The team has to put together what they have now. What I saw last night is a tired team. Warriors wanted the win more than us.

Fillmoe · Mar 21, 2005

um..................................... are you guys forgetting something? since the webber trade we have had 5 of our players miss atleast one game to do injury. players still havent adapted into the team theres still some work to be done. i think when we have all of our players healthy we gonna be a decent team.

love_them_kings · Mar 21, 2005

Fillmoe said:

I agree, we will be a decent team. But IMHO, with Webb in there we had POTENTIAL to be a GREAT team, not just a decent team. I miss what we had with Webb too, because up till the trade I had held onto my slim hopes that maybe, just maybe, we could make it happen this year. Yeah, it would have taken a Tim Duncan injury, some luck, and yes, some healthy players, but there was a slim chance of something great. I do agree that long term the trade could be a good thing, but for this year I feel like it rightfully lowered our expectations. That said, these constant injuries are heartbreaking and getting almost impossible to overcome. It has been a hard year to be a Kings fan.

Purple Reign · Mar 21, 2005

We all have been waiting for Stojakovic to come around. But to look at it from a big picture perspective, Peja has not played good basketball for close to 1 1/2 seasons. Sure he was an MVP candidate before LAST YEAR'S All Star Break, but he was not very good at the end of last season and the playoffs and it was blamed on Chris Webber, and at best he has been consistantly inconsistant the entire 2004-05 season. In my view, this team is not going anywhere until this situation is addressed. And IMHO it is too late into this season to decide what is going to happen with Peja Stojakovic. So we have to ride it out and hope this guy finds not his game but any game, night in, night out.

VF21 · Mar 21, 2005

justthisonce said:

Where did you get the information that Webber has peroneal neuropathy?

Bricklayer · Mar 21, 2005

VF21 said:

believe it was the stated reason for him missing the last game.

1kingzfan · Mar 21, 2005

Catalyst said:

This is an outstanding post!

Using the stat sheets, before and after, and injuries that are now reported afterwards to argue that we are better off now in the "new era" is specious, at best. Can't compare players in new systems; can't say with certainty that injuries or other bumps and bruises would have manifested themselves in the same time or even at all in another scenario.

Webber did fill up the stat sheet with his gaudy 20/10/5 numbers, but his value to the team was much more than that. Webb brought the Kings certain intangibles that are now missing. IMHO these include leadership and being the glue of the team's chemistry. Webb also brought an identity to our team. I'm not sure WHO we are any more...still trying to figure that out, and I think the team is in a similar quandary.

None of us here can truly assess or quantify the importance of these intangibles, but I am convinced now that I see the new Kings that these intangibles played a role in our historical success.

They may be our undoing now, as we near the post-season.

bigbadred00 · Mar 21, 2005

I don't read the Bee all the time but is Voison eating her words now? I hope she finally fesses up how wrong she was. Or is she quiet, crying her tears out that her boy isn't doing what he did last year. I love Peja but we can't blame Webber or anyone else anymore for his apparent failings this year or in the future. He doesn't have any excuses anymore and we NEED him to show up and show up big. He has to STOP and I mean STOP trying to develop his own shot. Please give him screens because without them he can't shoot. Your not MJ, you can't hit fade aways. Go back to what you did best Peja, shots off screens, open shots off screens.

VF21 · Mar 21, 2005

Bricklayer said:

Ah, thank you. The last I heard it was just slight swelling of the knee.

...................................

VF21 runs off to read more about what CAUSES peroneal neuropathy...

KingKong · Mar 21, 2005

bigbadred00 said:

As are the guys on "Talking Points."

But in all fairness, with all the injuries and the sudden revamped roster, it will take time to really know how good this team is without Webber. We haven't even really seen how Brad is capable of filling in as the a playmaker.

VF21 · Mar 21, 2005

KingKong said:

In all fairness, it will never be "this team without Webber." The team has changed irretrievably. The name on the front is the same, but pretty much everything else is changing.

What we had with Webber was a lot of fun, excitement and the rides of our lives - so far. We can't possibly know what the future will bring.

As far as Voisin goes, she will never "eat her words" because she will never be proven wrong. She said Peja was harmed because of Webber. She won't change that. If anything, she might just say the harm was accumulative and now it's permanently poisoned Peja.

justthisonce · Mar 21, 2005

yeah, i got it from the latest philly game's box score. i didn't know what the heck is peroneal neuropathy until i found it out off the net and it seems pretty serious... and i feel even worse for chris

VF21 said:

KingKong · Mar 21, 2005

VF21 said:

In all fairness, it will never be "this team without Webber." The team has changed irretrievably. The name on the front is the same, but pretty much everything else is changing.

What we had with Webber was a lot of fun, excitement and the rides of our lives - so far. We can't possibly know what the future will bring.

As far as Voisin goes, she will never "eat her words" because she will never be proven wrong. She said Peja was harmed because of Webber. She won't change that. If anything, she might just say the harm was accumulative and now it's permanently poisoned Peja.

It would surely be hard to prove her wrong on that one

bojan_pecanac · Mar 21, 2005

Kings are 10X better without Webber. Just wait until Miller and Jackson come back and you'll see.

VF21 · Mar 21, 2005

Here's some stuff I found out about peroneal neuropathy:

1. It's the same type of condition as carpal tunnel syndrome.
2. If in the knee, it's sometimes called "gardener's knee" and is a result of knelling or squatting.
3. Treatment can range from surgery to correct a severe situation, especially if the nerve involved has been damaged, to simply letting the knee rest and not subjecting it to the activity which caused the condition in the first place.

So, bottom line? I think it's a fancy way of saying he had some swelling in his knee and some numbness.

EDIT: Considering Jim O'Brien's record about Webber so far, I have to wonder if he made that statement so he could point to the "CONDITION" as a reason for not playing Webber, as though the CONDITION was something new and not the same thing Webb had occasionally experienced here... Just a thought. I still think JOB is arguably the worst coach in the NBA today.

VF21 · Mar 21, 2005

bojan_pecanac said:

What if they don't come back?

Saying this team is 10 times better without Webber is simply unsubstantiated by facts. It may end up being the right decision at the right time, but it did NOT make our team better right now.

quick dog · Mar 21, 2005

It bears repeating.

Only the Sacramento Kings could end a regular-season game with a playoff-quality team sitting on the bench with a wide variety of injuries. Bobby Jackson, Cutino Mobley, Corlis Williamson, Brad Miller, and Brian Skinner.

Chris Webber would be irrelevant under these circumstances.

Missing what we had with Webber...

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