D-Mass
Starter
I don't spend a lot of time on here bashing SAR, but I just don't see anything on the court that backs this up.
Mike Bibby - Too early to say goodbye?
- Thread starter most_casual_observer
- Start date
I don't spend a lot of time on here bashing SAR, but I just don't see anything on the court that backs this up.
Elise10
Starter
Thanks for putting in the effort to research those
. Bibby's still looking for that extension:http://www.sacbee.com/351/story/92022.html
There's also something on ESPN's Insider but that's probably the same as the Bee's article today
Roman
Bench
You don't have to "see it on the court". Historically, he's the only player to routinely score 20PPG on limited shots. That's a good thing.
Right now, we don't use the post as a true option so SAR cannot produce his numbers. It's like saying Tim Duncan isn't a good post player or good offensive option when he's on the floor, but he's only touching the ball 9 times a game from his comfort zone. No post player in the league is going to routinely impact a game with those touches.
We've got no offensive gameplan and thus guys like SAR who rely on other players getting him the ball are removed from the offensive threat category.
He's also the best option on the break, off the screen/roll, on the backdoor cut, and off the dribble.
The only reason why he leads the team in assists is because he's the only player who touches the ball on every halfcourt possession.i advise him to just continue running the floor. do what he does. true that ron is the best defener. but look, mike bibby can shoot the ball and he is our leading assist guy. so that's saying that mike shoots the most and he's also our leading assist guy.
Right, that's why he leads the team in free throws... wait, that's not him.
The best player on the team is Artest... unfortunately, Artest can't shoot. Martin is the best shooter, and is quickly developing into the best scorer, but he hasn't proven himself to be a leader yet. Bibby is kind of the leader by attrition, but he's not the best player, and we've already seen evidence that a team led by Bibby isn't going anywhere.
Here's the problem with this line of thinking: you keep pointing to what Abdur-Rahim used to do, more than two years ago, as though it's incontrovertible proof that he can still do it... this is like saying that, if something happened yesterday, it's proof that it'll happen tomorrow, and there's no way of knowing that for sure.
Abdur-Rahim hasn't been a twenty-point scorer for a couple of years; there's no possible way that you can say with absolute certainty that he's still capable of playing at that level until you see it with your own eyes.
Roman
Bench
Unfortunately that's true, but Bibby can't create for anyone else. He doesn't see the floor as well as Miller.
Have you not watched our games so far this year? Have you not watched Peja in the past?
Guys get open through an offense. It's called getting your shots "within an offense". Teams set screens, picks, and move the ball in order to provide open looks to players.
He already gets a lot of open looks, but he'll get more the moment we run an offense and have a true distributor.
mike bibby can shoot the ball and he is our leading assist guy. so that's saying that mike shoots the most and he's also our leading assist guy.
That comes with the territory of bringing the ball up court and initiating the offense. It's not really "getting others involved" when he simply dumps it to Miller who pops a jumper. He didn't really create that look or opportunity.
He CAN create, but he rarely does.
I don't think SAR is the best player on the team. I think the overall best player on the team is Ron Artest. He's simply dominating on defense and his offensive skills (when used in moderation and intelligently) are good. He's well rounded and a great asset.
You've got to play on both sides of the ball to truly be a great player. SAR is a pretty good man-on defender, but can be downright lowsy on rotations and he's about as intimidating as a mouse (although he does challenge). That holds him back from being a really dynamic player, in my opinion.
Roman
Bench
That's true. I won't argue any of this.
All I can point to is his points per shot has remained relatively stable (actually has moved up) while his usage has dwindled. I truly believe he's capable of putting up 20PPG ... if not 20PPG, I think he's capable of contributing as a major scorer on this team ...
Is this what we need? I don't know.
I don't think it hurts us to use the post more and I don't think it hurts us to involve SAR more. 13-15 shots isn't exactly dominating the ball. In my opinion, I believe this team would be more effective using a combination of Miller distributing up high and using the post. We should put it in the post (even if just to initiate the offense) on about half of our possessions. It puts the ball in the most effective spot on the floor and gives it to people that CAN score from there (Artest/SAR). I think from there, it will generate a lot of "team offense" from doubles and kickouts.
I can't vouch for Artest this year, but SAR has never really been a volume guy or a ballhog. I don't think dropping it to those guys will necessarily mean they will force the shot.
It's just how I think this team would work the best ...
Roman
Bench
Jeez ... sad thing is ... it's the truth.
BigWaxer
Starter
Roman were do you come up with this junk? Go make a SAR forum and worship him all you want.
Sar is not our best "Scorer" see other thread, Muss has a gameplan, Martin at this time is probably the best option. I would almost say in this order is who gets the ball on this team.
Martin, Bibby, Ron(inside)/Miller Tied... Then Sar and Kenny.
Need to see if the Artest / Bibby thing is true. If not, then this team just has not chemistry, and time to dump some contracts. As much as I hate to say it SAR is cheap, A great backup to a possible future superstar PF.
Sar is not our best "Scorer" see other thread, Muss has a gameplan, Martin at this time is probably the best option. I would almost say in this order is who gets the ball on this team.
Martin, Bibby, Ron(inside)/Miller Tied... Then Sar and Kenny.
Need to see if the Artest / Bibby thing is true. If not, then this team just has not chemistry, and time to dump some contracts. As much as I hate to say it SAR is cheap, A great backup to a possible future superstar PF.
Roman
Bench
I love that thinking he's a good option and that using the post equates to "worship".
Yes, our coach seems to think the same thing. It's working well.
Unfortunately for you, at the end of the day your opinion holds about as much weight as mine.
If he's not doing that well, it would be silly for him to opt out this year when he might face the reality of not getting as much on the open market as he would wish. If the team chemistry is bad, I'd think the team would most likely attempt to fix that. I don't think there's any real indication the Maloofs are unappreciative and the whole "move to Anaheim" thing is just silly.
You did some nice work on research and the stuff is interesting, BUT it's merely conjecture, rumors, unsubstantied guesses, etc.
Bottom line is none of us know for sure right now - and I think that includes Bibby and his agent. They don't have to make a decision in December. And, some rumors notwithstanding, I'd be willing to bet Petrie and Bibby's agent have already been talking.
It is MHO that people are starting to panic way too soon. We can always panic later over this particular point.
Letting someone like Mobley walk or even someone like Vlade, who was clearly at the end of his career, is entirely different than the situation with Mike Bibby. I just hope the lunacy of some fans, especially on some other NBA boards, doesn't give Bibby the idea he's not wanted or appreciated.
A lot of people probably don't remember, but when Chris Webber's contract was up in the air, a LOT of "analysts" swore he wasn't going to sign with the Kings again, that he was headed for Detroit, and that he and Petrie hated each other to the point where they'd never work together past the end of the first contract.
Webber signed with us and those pundits were left trying to scramble to avoid eating the crow on their plates. The same might be true of Bibby, but at this point I just don't think anyone is in a real position to predict what he or the Kings are going to be discussing.
Not necessarily true.
BigWaxer......The one point I actually agree with you on is the order which you place our offensive options. With that in mind, I have a quick question. Are you satisfied with the results which this current offensive philosophy have produced? If yes, then you have nothing to worry about. I guess that is the way you roll. However, as far as I can tell Coach Muss has no consistent gameplan. It shows in our inconsistent play on the offensive side of the floor. Guys just come down and jack up any ole' shot they feel like taking. Muss needs to get in their faces and let them know that playground ball is not acceptable. And as undisciplined as our offense is, our defense is far more chaotic. There is simply no structure on defense. Nobody is held accountable. Our perimenter defenders seem to simply not give a darn. And when our guards allow such deep penetration, our big's are put in disastrous situations. The one area in which our frontcourt truly struggles is help-side defense. And since our guards are so atrocious on the perimeter, our frontcourt is made to look truly pathetic -- thus, our big's are the scapegoat for the inadequacies of our backcourt on defense. Yet people seem to scream from the top of their lungs that our frontcourt of Brad Miller, Kenny Thomas and Shareef Abdur-Rahim are what is keeping the Kings from being very good. I just do not understand this reasoning.
BigWaxer
Starter
Man I am not for one going to continue going with you on SAR, his stats speak for himself, When I talk about SAR I let facts speak.
As far as muss... I am one of the biggest RA guys here and still am. However IMO Muss cannot be judged on this group of players here. Nobody would make this team win. Coaches can only do so much.
Roman
Bench
I wouldn't either. You haven't made any valid points ... or any points for that matter, but rather just spewed out your opinions without any real backup argument behind it.
Yes, I think you should.
I'm just wondering what fact it is you're referring to? The fact that the coach doesn't emphasize the post and thus SAR is basically left toothless? Or the fact that SAR is still averaging a high point per shot efficiency?
The system we run right now is not benefitting to post players. It's not SARs fault he isn't touching the ball. Basketball is so much about the playcalling and the system. Heck, I remember a player that couldn't even make the floor for the hapless Hawks has flourished since going to the Suns, since the system fit.
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You remember the movie "War Games," BW? Remember the conclusion about playing thermo-nuclear war?
BigWaxer
Starter
BigWaxer......The one point I actually agree with you on is the order which you place our offensive options. With that in mind, I have a quick question. Are you satisfied with the results which this current offensive philosophy have produced? If yes, then you have nothing to worry about. I guess that is the way you roll. However, as far as I can tell Coach Muss has no consistent gameplan. It shows in our inconsistent play on the offensive side of the floor. Guys just come down and jack up any ole' shot they feel like taking. Muss needs to get in their faces and let them know that playground ball is not acceptable. And as undisciplined as our offense is, our defense is far more chaotic. There is simply no structure on defense. Nobody is held accountable. Our perimenter defenders seem to simply not give a darn. And when our guards allow such deep penetration, our big's are put in disastrous situations. The one area in which our frontcourt truly struggles is help-side defense. And since our guards are so atrocious on the perimeter, our frontcourt is made to look truly pathetic -- thus, our big's are the scapegoat for the inadequacies of our backcourt on defense. Yet people seem to scream from the top of their lungs that our frontcourt of Brad Miller, Kenny Thomas and Shareef Abdur-Rahim are what is keeping the Kings from being very good. I just do not understand this reasoning.
No and in the end I am no coach just a fan like you. I just see things pretty much at face value. I said it above... Don't think any coach would make this team good. We just don't have the talent.
Am I happy with the offense? No not at all and honestly not sure what to think about whats going on. Muss runs an upbeat/fast tempo system or at least likes to. He also wants to play D which left after week 2. It's on the players at some point. He has even run the some Princeton this year, Its just the mesh of talent we have.
If it were me in all honesty, (contracts considered in this) I would trade Bibby, Miller, Artest, KT - KT is almost impossible to trade...I am for the complete rebuild action. Keep that in mind with my thoughts
BigWaxer
Starter
Roman...Come on man, I did not insult you. If you cannot discuss your opinion without getting upset then don't respond. I have no reason to get into some name calling debate with you.
Just stating my opinion, I am not Petrie, just how I see things, you see things differently which is cool.
Thats what message boards are about. They are not about insults. In the end what either of us think matters none in the Kings winning.
Just stating my opinion, I am not Petrie, just how I see things, you see things differently which is cool.
Thats what message boards are about. They are not about insults. In the end what either of us think matters none in the Kings winning.
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Roman
Bench
Unfortunately, I felt that you have. In three threads so far you've basically said I pull facts from nowhere and it's all junk and such. That's insulting.
I'm sorry though. No excuse. Check your PM.
I agree.
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Roman
Bench
BigWaxer
Starter
You remember the movie "War Games," BW? Remember the conclusion about playing thermo-nuclear war?
yes and don't try and make me feel old HAHA
what a great movie for its time.
...
Surely I'm not the only former Scout/parent of a Scout on this board...
Surely I'm not the only former Scout/parent of a Scout on this board...
BigSong
Bench
...i wanted bloodshed.
slugking50
All-Star
Reading this thread makes me want to gouge my eyes out...
Ok a slight exaggeration.....
The SAR/KT lovefest is really annoying. I don't get it. You guys must be members of their family. Thats the only rational thing that i can come up with......
In order for this team to win consistently win we need to get rid of the trash and rebuild. We need atleast 2 supestars with several role players. Not the players who pretend to be starters and/or cant help a winning ball club. KT/Sar are like an endless pit where they forget they have (Artest is like this on ocassion)teamates and develop tunnel vision. They dont even see the 3 players surrounding them as they put a shot that has no shot at going in.
They are not players youd want on a winning team. You cannot win with SAR getting 20 ppg. That means your team is getting beat by 10-15 every game. SAR and KT absolurle kill our offensive flow. They simply dont fit here. Its dead... Lets shoot it now and save us the pain now... We need to get rid of them... pronto... Are you listening GP?! There has to be tleast 1 or 2 GMS that are dumb enought to trade for them.
Ok Ifeel a little better now.
Ok a slight exaggeration.....
The SAR/KT lovefest is really annoying. I don't get it. You guys must be members of their family. Thats the only rational thing that i can come up with......
In order for this team to win consistently win we need to get rid of the trash and rebuild. We need atleast 2 supestars with several role players. Not the players who pretend to be starters and/or cant help a winning ball club. KT/Sar are like an endless pit where they forget they have (Artest is like this on ocassion)teamates and develop tunnel vision. They dont even see the 3 players surrounding them as they put a shot that has no shot at going in.
They are not players youd want on a winning team. You cannot win with SAR getting 20 ppg. That means your team is getting beat by 10-15 every game. SAR and KT absolurle kill our offensive flow. They simply dont fit here. Its dead... Lets shoot it now and save us the pain now... We need to get rid of them... pronto... Are you listening GP?! There has to be tleast 1 or 2 GMS that are dumb enought to trade for them.
Ok Ifeel a little better now.
slugking50
All-Star
That Bibby had a S***load of talent around him who worked hard to get him open shots. This teams practically incapable of that.
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