Mbah a Moute-Williams trade? (merged)

[Kingsfan23]

Not figuring in Williams because I don't know how he'll be used, the guy who might benefit minutes wise from this trade in the interim would be Outlaw. Maybe he'll prove he can start and not be a substantial step down from Luc if that is the direction the coaching staff chooses to go in. given the first impression I have had of him where he was a total scrub for this team when he first arrived I'm a little reticent to label him a permanent solution but I hope he keeps up the solid play

 

[randymoss1881]

You never know maybe we might swing him for shumpart which would be an A+ move. Rumor is MN denied a shumpart williams deal

 

[Tetsujin]

To build for the future, you have to stop planning for the present. Trading Luc for a 22-year-old former number 2 pick who performed alright on a ravaged Wolves team last year before falling out of Rick Adelman's usual tight rotations/ falling victim to the Minnesota front office's sudden realization that they need to have some success now before their franchise player starts thinking about bolting for New York or any other city promising some sort of "super team" when his contract expires in a few years.

Has Derrick Williams performed up to the standard of his number 2 pick status? Probably not. But he's only 22 years old, in significantly better shape than he's ever been before, and finally going to have a chance to receive steady minutes at the 3 (hopefully) in Mike Malone's system. Positional concerns aside, I absolutely fell in love with the guy's potential during his run in the NCAA. Now as to whether or not the guy fulfills his potential is another story. The T-Rob comparisons may be fair but Williams seems better suited at the 3 than the 4, unlike Robinson who was built like a 3 but unfortunately lacked any of the skills required for that switch.

Considering this series of trades essentially amounts to a second round pick for a young player three years removed from being one of the most fawned over prospects in all of basketball, I'm fine with the move. It's not like we were likely to pick up a player with the second rounder that was going to have the potential of Williams. If this costs us a few wins this season, oh well. Better draft position might ultimately prove to be the most valuable result of this move.

We've all been complaining about the stream of random veterans flowing onto this roster every year. We can't start complaining that we've acquired a prospect because it cost us a veteran player now.

I'm at least holding off on passing judgement on this trade until a year or two from now. I'll just wish Luc the very best and welcome D-Will to the Kings family.

 

[Uncia03]

I think this D. Williams trade is getting such polar reactions for one simple reason.
Most would agree with me that by and large PDA was an utter failure during the off-season. He signed Cousins to the extension which in all accounts he had no choice to do because Vivek wanted it done.
About the only thing that everyone was happy about was him bringing in Luc for really cheap. Luc is a defensive player which would mesh well with what Malone wanted.
So everyone was happy (including me) with bringing on Luc and he represented the only universally positive thing done as far as personnel during the off-season.
And as soon as he got healthy he won the starting SF job and played great defense, particularly on Chris Paul, but there was that 4 on 2 fastbreak that he also stopped in the last game, ect.
I liked Luc and what he brought to the table.

But with that said, D. Williams is a big, athletic, and powerful player who's game should translate well if you run a half-court offense along-side Cousins. If you dedicate his play to the SF position and he even remotely gets to his potential then it's a tremendous win for our team's future development. Considering how cheaply we got Luc, the fact that we could turn that into a chance to see him develop along-side Cousins and Ben is a great use of our very, very limited assets.

And here is something else to consider. Let's say that you run with him as the starter with 30 minutes a game for the season. If he pans out it means that if we end up with the 5-8 pick in the draft we won't be devastated at our lost chance to get Parker/Wiggins.
If we end up with a top 4 pick then we can still take a SF and hopefully turn him into another asset to shore up another position.
And the worst thing that could happen is that he fails here too, but that failure still won't hurt the organization as much as the failed J.J. Hickson deal.

So I get it. It's possible that if Williams doesn't pan out we would have essentially washed down the drain the only universally positive move made over the off-season. I think it's a gamble worth taking, so we'll have to see how the FO envisions using Williams and how well he responds to the challenge. I'm hoping for the best.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Where did you find a Wolves forum? The only one I found was completely and totally overrun with spam.

You should check out Canis Hoopus (www.canishoopus.com) - it's the SBNation site for the T'Wolves.

 

[Chubbs]

The more I think about it, the more I love this trade.

Very short sighted thinking for many of you. MAM was never part of the future. By the time we got any good, his knees would almost definitely have given out(and if not, he'd be too expensive to keep). He adds 2-3 wins now that frankly the FO should not be seeking. I haven't quite understood the love affair on here for the prince. This is the career 6.8 ppg scorer, right? He fits with Minny, had no real reason to be here at this point in the rebuild. On the kings now, they need a scorer in the starting lineup. Maybe, just maybe, it's Williams. It was never going to be the prince. And if it's not Williams? What's really lost?

This helps both teams now. Helps us get worse in the short term, and takes a chance on a guy who appears to be in the shape of his life. It's tasteful tanking. And there's a chance, maybe a tiny one, that Williams blows up.

As for you harping on this preaching defensive culture nonsense, every coach on every team, from the worst d team to the best, preaches to the press about defense. At every level of basketball ever. What else are they going to say? "We are going to go out there and give as little effort as possible and give up as many layups as we can?" I do enjoy the irony of preaching that and then getting rid of every decent defender you have, but, it was never about winning this season. This move fits that to a T.

 

[KingMilz]

If Williams even proves to be average he could be used in a package with another player to land something we want as well

Best Case Scenario
He is the SF we are looking for and lives up to 3/4's of the hype coming into th NBA, we get a high draft pick and have a chance to draft Wiggins or Parker, that's great we can move Williams for something decent since he will have 1 year left on his contract....if we don't land a Wiggins or Parker....perfect we still have a capable SF and can draft either a PG (Vasquez is not a starter) or a shot blocker with potential (the Kansas) kid.

Worst Case:
He can't play the 3 and is basically Patrick Patterson @ the 4, we lost two 2nd round draft picks.....................and gave ourselfs a chance of finding a potential gem..

 

[jalfa]

The more I think about it, the more I love this trade.

Very short sighted thinking for many of you. MAM was never part of the future. By the time we got any good, his knees would almost definitely have given out(and if not, he'd be too expensive to keep). He adds 2-3 wins now that frankly the FO should not be seeking. I haven't quite understood the love affair on here for the prince. This is the career 6.8 ppg scorer, right? He fits with Minny, had no real reason to be here at this point in the rebuild. On the kings now, they need a scorer in the starting lineup. Maybe, just maybe, it's Williams. It was never going to be the prince. And if it's not Williams? What's really lost?

This helps both teams now. Helps us get worse in the short term, and takes a chance on a guy who appears to be in the shape of his life. It's tasteful tanking. And there's a chance, maybe a tiny one, that Williams blows up.

As for you harping on this preaching defensive culture nonsense, every coach on every team, from the worst d team to the best, preaches to the press about defense. At every level of basketball ever. What else are they going to say? "We are going to go out there and give as little effort as possible and give up as many layups as we can?" I do enjoy the irony of preaching that and then getting rid of every decent defender you have, but, it was never about winning this season. This move fits that to a T.

when Kwame Brown was cut by the Sixers, recently, Evan Turner was asked about Brett Brown's high regard for physical fitness and he said something along the lines of "Doug Collins was preaching it, the new coach is cutting guys over it." with the Kings you have a coach who is sending all the right signals about playing hard and emphasising defence, by sitting guys that won't do as told and all of a sudden one of the guys that has actually fallen in line with this philosophy and produced is sent away. there is a certain discrepancy in the level of consistency between those two approaches that I'm just not a fan of.

I understand that this team is severely lacking talent, but a) am I very sceptical of Derrick William's potential to amount to something special in the league, and b) do I disagree with your assessment of Luc's relevance for this team going forward. in a rebuild, you need veterans to be guides for the young players and teach those players the right way to play. what's more, you need those vets to be good enough to actually see the court. Chuck Hayes sitting on the bench won't do you any good, Luc Mbah A Moute being out there and slowing down the likes of Chris Paul and even friggin Marc Gasol, while the team makes a run against some of the better teams in this league actually might.

I'm not totally against this trade, maybe Williams does get back some of his college mojo with a change in scenery and starts playing like the guy people thought he'd be out of college, hopefully he does. however, I'm not getting my hopes up for that quite yet.

 

[Padrino]

when Kwame Brown was cut by the Sixers, recently, Evan Turner was asked about Brett Brown's high regard for physical fitness and he said something along the lines of "Doug Collins was preaching it, the new coach is cutting guys over it." with the Kings you have a coach who is sending all the right signals about playing hard and emphasising defence, by sitting guys that won't do as told and all of a sudden one of the guys that has actually fallen in line with this philosophy and produced is sent away. there is a certain discrepancy in the level of consistency between those two approaches that I'm just not a fan of.

I understand that this team is severely lacking talent, but a) am I very sceptical of Derrick William's potential to amount to something special in the league, and b) do I disagree with your assessment of Luc's relevance for this team going forward. in a rebuild, you need veterans to be guides for the young players and teach those players the right way to play. what's more, you need those vets to be good enough to actually see the court. Chuck Hayes sitting on the bench won't do you any good, Luc Mbah A Moute being out there and slowing down the likes of Chris Paul and even friggin Marc Gasol, while the team makes a run against some of the better teams in this league actually might.

I'm not totally against this trade, maybe Williams does get back some of his college mojo with a change in scenery and starts playing like the guy people thought he'd be out of college, hopefully he does. however, I'm not getting my hopes up for that quite yet.

i absolutely agree with you about the necessity of surrounding a young core with defensively-minded veterans. i was arguing for a few seasons that the kings needed to surround demarcus cousins and tyreke evans with defensively-minded veteran roleplayers. but that ship sailed when evans was cut loose. ben mclemore is a nice piece of the puzzle, but he's not a #2 talent. now the kings need to put themselves in a position to acquire a #2 talent, so defensively-minded veteran roleplayers, while important on any team that truly wants to compete, are not exactly the priority of this rebuild...

fortunately, cousins isn't going anywhere, not for a few seasons, at least. and mclemore isn't going anywhere, not for a few seasons, at least. and the kings' 2014 draft pick won't be going anywhere, not for a few seasons, at least. this team has time to acquire the kind of defensively-minded veterans that help to stabilize a rebuild, and we can only hope that d'allesandro's intention is to do so once the picture is a little clearer, once the "core" of this new era kings team is established...

in the meantime, young talents like mclemore and williams are raw enough that giving them heavy minutes contributes to the loss total. the kings aren't throwing games. they're not playing to lose. they're simply investing in the development of their young, inexperienced players, and a lotta young, inexperienced players tend to lack the tools necessary to help teams win consistently. so, once more unto the lottery, dear friends. if we're lucky--and yes, it will require a bit of luck, but it's no worse than hoping that the kings can turn their spare parts into gold--the kings will walk away with a potential impact player in a stacked 2014 draft...

 

[Entity]

Most recently is Gerald Green.

really? he locked Gerald Green down? Green averages 15pts per game and had 23 against us.

 

[jalfa]

i absolutely agree with you about the necessity of surrounding a young core with defensively-minded veterans. i was arguing for a few seasons that the kings needed to surround demarcus cousins and tyreke evans with defensively-minded veteran roleplayers. but that ship sailed when evans was cut loose. ben mclemore is a nice piece of the puzzle, but he's not a #2 talent. now the kings need to put themselves in a position to acquire a #2 talent, so defensively-minded veteran roleplayers, while important on any team that truly wants to compete, are not exactly the priority of this rebuild...

fortunately, cousins isn't going anywhere, not for a few seasons, at least. and mclemore isn't going anywhere, not for a few seasons, at least. and the kings' 2014 draft pick won't be going anywhere, not for a few seasons, at least. this team has time to acquire the kind of defensively-minded veterans that help to stabilize a rebuild, and we can only hope that d'allesandro's intention is to do so once the picture is a little clearer, once the "core" of this new era kings team is established...

in the meantime, young talents like mclemore and williams are raw enough that giving them heavy minutes contributes to the loss total. the kings aren't throwing games. they're not playing to lose. they're simply investing in the development of their young, inexperienced players, and a lotta young, inexperienced players tend to lack the tools necessary to help teams win consistently. so, once more unto the lottery, dear friends. if we're lucky--and yes, it will require a bit of luck, but it's no worse than hoping that the kings can turn their spare parts into gold--the kings will walk away with a potential impact player in a stacked 2014 draft...

absolutely agree as far as playing mostly for losses is concerned, I just don't think that the trade will make an appreciable difference in the win-loss column, while I think it'll hurt as far as culture and direction of the team is concerned. also, I fear for Malone's sanity.

really? he locked Gerald Green down? Green averages 15pts per game and had 23 against us.

he scored 20 in the first half vs. Ben and 3 points in the second half, once Luc took over the assignment. Luc took a scorer that had an insanely hot night and basically shut him out. there's ways to support this trade, playing down Luc's defensive impact over the last few games is not one of those.

 

[KingsCitizen]

I would agree that Luc brings a lot of defense on table. But let's not forget that our coach actually turned a lineup of Bogut(playing with injuries), Lee, Barnes, Thompson, and Curry in a decent to above average in team defense last season.
Exhibit number 2 would be Cousin's noticeable switch to blocking more shots this season as well as improved team defense.

Back to the topic, in real sense of things, we just turned Tyreke Evans into Vazquez and Williams a within month into the season.
IMO, that's a decent return.
It's too early to give up on a former number 2 pick, who is a hard worker and not anywhere close to sort of team cancer(like Beasly, who btw is doing doing well in the Heat lately).

Williams/DMC/McLemore is damn nice young core being forward. That's 3 lottery picks right there.

 

[Padrino]

absolutely agree as far as playing mostly for losses is concerned, I just don't think that the trade will make an appreciable difference in the win-loss column, while I think it'll hurt as far as culture and direction of the team is concerned. also, I fear for Malone's sanity.



he scored 20 in the first half vs. Ben and 3 points in the second half, once Luc took over the assignment. Luc took a scorer that had an insanely hot night and basically shut him out. there's ways to support this trade, playing down Luc's defensive impact over the last few games is not one of those.

well, the trade certainly won't make an appreciable difference as far as wins are concerned, but it will likely amount to additional losses. as you've pointed out, luc's defensive impact was keenly felt across the last few games. that said, coach malone is probably not happy about the trade in the immediate sense, especially after having just inserted mbah a moute into the starting unit. luc had finally gotten his legs under him after rehabbing that pesky knee injury, and he was quickly rounding into shape on the defensive side of the ball. whatever nba potential derrick williams may have is not going to rear its head anytime soon, so the kings effectively traded defensive production for overall development, which tends to nod in the direction of the loss column...

however, it should be noted that the organization did hold a recent meeting in which the direction of the franchise was surely discussed. my assumption is that mike malone was a part of that meeting, or was at least kept in the loop. shortly after that meeting, we started hearing reports that the kings were active in trade talks, and were seeking to offload their veteran roleplayers for picks/prospects. and now we've seen the results of those trade talks. out: veteran roleplayer. in: young prospect. i expect similar transactions to occur between now and the trade deadline. connect the dots, and what should we see? a team that is clearly investing in its future, with an eye turned towards the upcoming draft lottery...

coach malone is very likely on the same page with management and ownership, though i expect he will push hard for the acquisition of veteran, defensive personnel in the coming seasons, per his emphasis on defense and rebounding. hell, it only took second rounders to snag mbah a moute in the first place. there will be other defensively-inclined roleplayers available down the line, as long as the kings are intent on pursuing them. that needs to be the major point of difference between this regime and the previous regime...

 

[Chubbs]

when Kwame Brown was cut by the Sixers, recently, Evan Turner was asked about Brett Brown's high regard for physical fitness and he said something along the lines of "Doug Collins was preaching it, the new coach is cutting guys over it." with the Kings you have a coach who is sending all the right signals about playing hard and emphasising defence, by sitting guys that won't do as told and all of a sudden one of the guys that has actually fallen in line with this philosophy and produced is sent away. there is a certain discrepancy in the level of consistency between those two approaches that I'm just not a fan of.

I understand that this team is severely lacking talent, but a) am I very sceptical of Derrick William's potential to amount to something special in the league, and b) do I disagree with your assessment of Luc's relevance for this team going forward. in a rebuild, you need veterans to be guides for the young players and teach those players the right way to play. what's more, you need those vets to be good enough to actually see the court. Chuck Hayes sitting on the bench won't do you any good, Luc Mbah A Moute being out there and slowing down the likes of Chris Paul and even friggin Marc Gasol, while the team makes a run against some of the better teams in this league actually might.

I'm not totally against this trade, maybe Williams does get back some of his college mojo with a change in scenery and starts playing like the guy people thought he'd be out of college, hopefully he does. however, I'm not getting my hopes up for that quite yet.

This may be the result of hiring a coach before the gm. I'd be surprised if Malone doesn't know exactly what is going on here though. From the start no one (besides shaq) in the FO gave any impression the playoffs were part of this seasons picture. I'm not sure the playoffs will be a goal next season either, to be honest. In that scenario, would you rather pay 10 million to LMAM (knowing he likely has no part of the future after next year) or 12 to Williams when he might be.

As sad as it is, Landry is supposed to be the vet presence (he does have a longer term contract).I never heard them say LMAM was that guy. He was just a pawn all along. Pretty sure having him defend everyone out there was making his audition tape to shop him around looking for young talent. Somehow he was too hurt to play the first couple weeks, then suddenly he's starting. That wasn't odd to anyone else? And honestly, they won big here. If Williams can do anything at all and can be developed, it's an easy win. I think it's still a win even if, and maybe especially if, he can't play. If he's avg at this point, he probably won't affect the win total too much.

I know it's been so long since the kings had an above avg defender. But those are not that hard to get. Guys that can avg 15 and 8 when given time are. Now, that's not spectacular, but that's better than what we have.

Sure, everyone would rather trade Hayes for Williams. Well, of course. That's not reality.

It's not likely anyone from this team save for mclemore, cousins, and possibly Landry and next years pick are here in two seasons. That's reality. Brace yourselves. And yes, that includes everyone, including IT.

We've gotta let this all play out and see what is left after next season. It could get very ugly short term. But I'd rather it be ugly with young talent. I'll give Williams a chance.

 

[jalfa]

admittedly, most of my reaction is coloured by my liking of Luc's game, who's really been the precise kind of player I've been wanting for the SF spot for a loooong time (lack of three point shot notwithstanding) and my scepticism as far as Derrick Williams is concerned. I've never really subscribed to the belief in winning habits, nor do I have any strong attachments to anybody outside of Cuz and suspect that at best, there's three other guys currently on the roster that feature in the long-term plans (the fact that one of those guys seems to be Carl Landry still confuses me greatly, but whatever).

I hadn't heard about the team meeting and if the entire organisation is on the same page as far as the direction going forward is concerned -a direction, I might add, that hopefully includes acquiring serious defensive personnel at some point- then alright, fine. Luc could've functioned as a bridge between the lousy defensive teams of yesterday and today and the, hopefully better defensive teams of the future and I'd disagree that a guy like him is easy, seeing as how few defenders of Luc's calibre are readily available, but that's an issue for next offseason, at the earliest, apparently.

another selfish part in wanting Luc to stay was that, while he probably wouldn't have meant a lot more wins, he could've given us a few more competitive losses, like that one against the Clippers on Saturday. now, I fear, we'll be in for a lot more blowouts and bad vibes around these parts, I fear. anyway, what's done is done, now, how might one go about legally watching NCAA games from outside the US?

P.S.: if this signals the return of John Salmons to the starting lineup, though...urrrgh...

 

[Chubbs]

admittedly, most of my reaction is coloured by my liking of Luc's game, who's really been the precise kind of player I've been wanting for the SF spot for a loooong time (lack of three point shot notwithstanding) and my scepticism as far as Derrick Williams is concerned. I've never really subscribed to the belief in winning habits, nor do I have any strong attachments to anybody outside of Cuz and suspect that at best, there's three other guys currently on the roster that feature in the long-term plans (the fact that one of those guys seems to be Carl Landry still confuses me greatly, but whatever).

I hadn't heard about the team meeting and if the entire organisation is on the same page as far as the direction going forward is concerned -a direction, I might add, that hopefully includes acquiring serious defensive personnel at some point- then alright, fine. Luc could've functioned as a bridge between the lousy defensive teams of yesterday and today and the, hopefully better defensive teams of the future and I'd disagree that a guy like him is easy, seeing as how few defenders of Luc's calibre are readily available, but that's an issue for next offseason, at the earliest, apparently.

another selfish part in wanting Luc to stay was that, while he probably wouldn't have meant a lot more wins, he could've given us a few more competitive losses, like that one against the Clippers on Saturday. now, I fear, we'll be in for a lot more blowouts and bad vibes around these parts, I fear. anyway, what's done is done, now, how might one go about legally watching NCAA games from outside the US?

P.S.: if this signals the return of John Salmons to the starting lineup, though...urrrgh...

No one said tanking would be fun.

They had to take a chance. The prince was their only asset that could fetch much of anything I have to believe. The rest will be dumped, and probably for a lot less.

Hey, it could have been Michael Beasley.

But salmons stays. And probably starts. He gives us a great chance of losing a lot of games, and shoot they're paying him already anyway. His expiring contract is not going anywhere, that's ours dammit!

I'll admit Luc has a special skill. But with his knee troubles, this seems a nice gamble where the worst case is that we are terrible this year. And Williams is off the books after next season, which I think is when a real move will be made. For now it's acquire young guys with something to prove.

 

[jalfa]

No one said tanking would be fun.

They had to take a chance. The prince was their only asset that could fetch much of anything I have to believe. The rest will be dumped, and probably for a lot less.

Hey, it could have been Michael Beasley.

But salmons stays. And probably starts. He gives us a great chance of losing a lot of games, and shoot they're paying him already anyway. His expiring contract is not going anywhere, that's ours dammit!

oh no, I never wanted to trade Salmons. rearrange the letters in his name, put him in a lion suit and let him walk around on stilts? maybe. but trade him? no. would rather see Outlaw start, though.

 

[Chubbs]

oh no, I never wanted to trade Salmons. rearrange the letters in his name, put him in a lion suit and let him walk around on stilts? maybe. but trade him? no. would rather see Outlaw start, though.

I wonder if salmons gets a bonus for every missed shot.

 

[jalfa]

I wonder if salmons gets a bonus for every missed shot.

it's the Richard Jefferson theory!

The Jazz have released Richard Jefferson from the San Francisco cryo-prison where the Warriors had been storing him, and now that RJ has been thawed out, he’s doing to professional basketball games what Wesley Snipes did to Los Angeles in Demolition Man. His ability to help Utah lose while not doing anything flagrantly wrong is so impressive, I could see future tanking teams freeing up part of their midlevel exceptions to sign Jefferson. He moves within the offense, shoots semi-contested jumpers that he should probably take, and just misses them. He gets to the bucket a couple times to score and make things respectable, and at the end of the night you’re looking at a solid six points on 2-of-10 shooting in 25 minutes.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/82149/a-fate-worse-than-death-nuggets-vs-jazz

 

[Bricklayer]

Amusing blurb from the bee's article on the trade:

No Kings forward averages more than 6.8 points (Patterson) or 5.3 rebounds (Thompson).

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/11/25/5947208/trade-for-former-no-2-pick-close.html#storylink=cpy


Probably as good a summation s any for our reasons.

 

[Hadlowe]

I know it's been so long since the kings had an above avg defender. But those are not that hard to get. Guys that can avg 15 and 8 when given time are. Now, that's not spectacular, but that's better than what we have.

I disagree entirely with this. Defensive stoppers are very rare in the NBA. Players who can stop multiple positions, even moreso.

The rarest of them, though, are the guys who can do that while still putting up positive numbers on offense. It's what makes guys like Nic Batum and Kawhi Leonard so important. If those players are the best guys on your team, you are in trouble. But put them out there as a defensive stopper to take the pressure off your stars and a kickout three target in the corner, and you've got the bare skeleton of a playoff team.

Luc is half of that. He is a less boneheaded Tony Allen. The problem I have with the trade is that you are trading a defensive stopper for more offense, more inefficient offense, and more ball-stopping offense. Maybe Williams proves me wrong, but my initial reaction is that this is a downgrade in talent in the hopes that Jabari Parker is superman.

 

[Padrino]

I disagree entirely with this. Defensive stoppers are very rare in the NBA. Players who can stop multiple positions, even moreso.

The rarest of them, though, are the guys who can do that while still putting up positive numbers on offense. It's what makes guys like Nic Batum and Kawhi Leonard so important. If those players are the best guys on your team, you are in trouble. But put them out there as a defensive stopper to take the pressure off your stars and a kickout three target in the corner, and you've got the bare skeleton of a playoff team.

Luc is half of that. He is a less boneheaded Tony Allen. The problem I have with the trade is that you are trading a defensive stopper for more offense, more inefficient offense, and more ball-stopping offense. Maybe Williams proves me wrong, but my initial reaction is that this is a downgrade in talent in the hopes that Jabari Parker is superman.

i'd hardly call derrick williams a ball-stopper. he's a finisher. he's not particularly gifted with the ball in his hands. if anything, this acquisition will encourage an uptick in vasquez's assist numbers, particularly if malone runs some pick and roll sets between the two of them...

i'm not jazzed about the loss of the kings' only above-average wing defender, but it's definitely a move with an eye toward the 2014 draft. the new regime is clearly communicating that role players who fill in the gaps are not the priority right now. the team isn't good enough to afford the luxury of a mbah a moute. the impact of this trade (and any subsequent trades) won't be felt until after next offseason, when the direction of the roster should be much clearer...

 

[Chubbs]

I disagree entirely with this. Defensive stoppers are very rare in the NBA. Players who can stop multiple positions, even moreso.

The rarest of them, though, are the guys who can do that while still putting up positive numbers on offense. It's what makes guys like Nic Batum and Kawhi Leonard so important. If those players are the best guys on your team, you are in trouble. But put them out there as a defensive stopper to take the pressure off your stars and a kickout three target in the corner, and you've got the bare skeleton of a playoff team.

Luc is half of that. He is a less boneheaded Tony Allen. The problem I have with the trade is that you are trading a defensive stopper for more offense, more inefficient offense, and more ball-stopping offense. Maybe Williams proves me wrong, but my initial reaction is that this is a downgrade in talent in the hopes that Jabari Parker is superman.

Let me rephrase. You don't win cause you have a defensive stopper. You don't build a team around Bruce Bowen or Chris Anderson or MAM, you add them to already good teams. If you see the stats of what our frontline is doing, um, we need help. Our crap isn't fetching a guy like Williams. Can't get something for nothing in the real world.

You'll see with Minny they are not going to play MAM huge mins. Why? He's a role player, a very valuable piece, but not a foundation. Minny has their core, now they add pieces where they are perceived weaker.

You may be right Williams isn't it, that star we need. But neither is anyone else we have now. And this guy is 22 with upside. We have a team where only mclemore has upside really. Cousins is basically there. I can't see IT doing much more than refining what he has now. The rest, and that included MAM, are what they are. Ppat may have some potential still. But he may be the next one gone.

Your initial reaction is spot on. It's hard to stomach, but this is the path the FO is taking. Don't except Landry to rush back.

 

[twslam07]

You may be right Williams isn't it, that star we need. But neither is anyone else we have now. And this guy is 22 with upside. We have a team where only mclemore has upside really. Cousins is basically there. I can't see IT doing much more than refining what he has now. The rest, and that included MAM, are what they are. Ppat may have some potential still. But he may be the next one gone.

Your initial reaction is spot on. It's hard to stomach, but this is the path the FO is taking. Don't except Landry to rush back.

No my friend. This is just the beginning.

 

[Chubbs]

Our leading scorer at forward avgs 6.8. Any questions?

 

[Chubbs]

No my friend. This is just the beginning.

Let us hope playing with this team this season doesn't kill his future. That's my concern right now.

 

[The Chico]

I am suprised so many people are upset about this trade, MAM is a nice role player to have for a condending team, but the Kings are not even close to that, so it is worth taking the gamble to see maybe a change of scenary with a demanding head coach can get to Williams and turn him into be a decent player for the future of the Kings or spin him in another trade to get more value. Worse case Kings increased their odds a little to get the #1 pick in 2014 and land Wiggins which will be the dramatic change this team needs. This a low risk move in my opinion.

Do not get attached to these players, PDA is going to be trading like a madman for a while. HE is good in what he does and gotta look at the big picture in the future not the present because it is going to be ugly for a while and will be some more head scratchers comming, but he has a plan.

 

[Glenn]

well, the trade certainly won't make an appreciable difference as far as wins are concerned, but it will likely amount to additional losses. as you've pointed out, luc's defensive impact was keenly felt across the last few games. that said, coach malone is probably not happy about the trade in the immediate sense, especially after having just inserted mbah a moute into the starting unit. luc had finally gotten his legs under him after rehabbing that pesky knee injury, and he was quickly rounding into shape on the defensive side of the ball. whatever nba potential derrick williams may have is not going to rear its head anytime soon, so the kings effectively traded defensive production for overall development, which tends to nod in the direction of the loss column...

however, it should be noted that the organization did hold a recent meeting in which the direction of the franchise was surely discussed. my assumption is that mike malone was a part of that meeting, or was at least kept in the loop. shortly after that meeting, we started hearing reports that the kings were active in trade talks, and were seeking to offload their veteran roleplayers for picks/prospects. and now we've seen the results of those trade talks. out: veteran roleplayer. in: young prospect. i expect similar transactions to occur between now and the trade deadline. connect the dots, and what should we see? a team that is clearly investing in its future, with an eye turned towards the upcoming draft lottery...

coach malone is very likely on the same page with management and ownership, though i expect he will push hard for the acquisition of veteran, defensive personnel in the coming seasons, per his emphasis on defense and rebounding. hell, it only took second rounders to snag mbah a moute in the first place. there will be other defensively-inclined roleplayers available down the line, as long as the kings are intent on pursuing them. that needs to be the major point of difference between this regime and the previous regime...

I am going to say nothing new. If out of that meeting came the idea of trading away all the vets for young talent or potential talent and I think there is a liklihood that is what was discussed, I am full in support of the trade. As I recall, a practice was canceled to have the meeting so I suspect Malone had full input or at least, was educated as to what was about to happen to assuage his frustration in trying to create a good team. I will leap up and down in joy if a few other vets are unloaded although the other vets are not contributing much to the w/l column and Luc was the only one making our team substantially better. We got rid of the only player who could make us better in order to acquire a big question mark. Why? I think there is more than one answer.

If losing while playing young guys to give the full appearance to the cash paying fans that this year is dedicated to something, that's OK. If the REAL goal is to lose, that's fine. Although the draft is never a guarantee, neither is Williams. Read other of padrino's notes for his explanation of the ways we can get better. We have little if no options other than this year's draft.

Those who cast doubt on the idea that the upcoming draft can be a make or break draft for the Kings (far more on the "make" side) please watch Duke and Kentucky just one time to get an idea of what is making many people salivate. Then come back and complain about this theory if you see nothing that excites you. Two games. With the main detractors being people who spend countless hours on this forum and clearly have time to kill, kill a little time watching two college games. It's four hours out of your life. BTW, I see only two full fledged can't miss players and Wiggins so far hasn't made my list so I am being VERY picky. I think the two can't miss stars are Randle and Parker. Take my word for what it is worth but after them we have a boatload of talent that COULD be stars and probably will be stars. Many, many, many including Wiggins who everyone in the world seems to think is can't miss and has been touted as the #1 pick. I haven't seen Exum (he has played only high school ball in Australia) so I am being very cautious to satisfy the naysayers. Yes, a conservative opinion is that there are two can't miss stars.

I doubt Williams is going to be the third star to go along with Cuz and McLemore. Heck, McLemore is not a star at the moment but gives plenty of hope as a scorer - a scoring role player if I may take liberty with the concept of a role player. My biggest hope is that the third star is found in the upcoming draft giving us Cuz/McLemore/draft pick, we will have the core to a decent and maybe even a great team. There are no guarantees with DWill OR the upcoming draft. If you are for the DWill trade, I cannot understand why you can put down the upcoming draft.

I do not know what Luc's knee injury is/was except that whatever he had recovered without surgery. If he merely banged knees with someone, this worry is being overblown. If it wasn't a case of banged knees and he truly IS on his last legs (pun intended) he will not pass the physical at Minnesota. Somehow he passed our physical a few months ago. Did our skilled FO think Luc's knees were no issue when we acquired him and now have changed their minds? If people wish, I'll see what I can come up with concerning Luc's knees if they give me a head start on finding the info that supports the idea that he is an aging (27?) vet with deteriorating knees who is about to crumble. I like facts.



Who is JLM? I have seen those initials bandied about.

 

[The Chico]

I am going to say nothing new. If out of that meeting came the idea of trading away all the vets for young talent or potential talent and I think there is a liklihood that is what was discussed, I am full in support of the trade. As I recall, a practice was canceled to have the meeting so I suspect Malone had full input or at least, was educated as to what was about to happen to assuage his frustration in trying to create a good team. I will leap up and down in joy if a few other vets are unloaded although the other vets are not contributing much to the w/l column and Luc was the only one making our team substantially better. We got rid of the only player who could make us better in order to acquire a big question mark. Why? I think there is more than one answer.

If losing while playing young guys to give the full appearance to the cash paying fans that this year is dedicated to something, that's OK. If the REAL goal is to lose, that's fine. Although the draft is never a guarantee, neither is Williams. Read other of padrino's notes for his explanation of the ways we can get better. We have little if no options other than this year's draft.

Those who cast doubt on the idea that the upcoming draft can be a make or break draft for the Kings (far more on the "make" side) please watch Duke and Kentucky just one time to get an idea of what is making many people salivate. Then come back and complain about this theory if you see nothing that excites you. Two games. With the main detractors being people who spend countless hours on this forum and clearly have time to kill, kill a little time watching two college games. It's four hours out of your life. BTW, I see only two full fledged can't miss players and Wiggins so far hasn't made my list so I am being VERY picky. I think the two can't miss stars are Randle and Parker. Take my word for what it is worth but after them we have a boatload of talent that COULD be stars and probably will be stars. Many, many, many including Wiggins who everyone in the world seems to think is can't miss and has been touted as the #1 pick. I haven't seen Exum (he has played only high school ball in Australia) so I am being very cautious to satisfy the naysayers. Yes, a conservative opinion is that there are two can't miss stars.

I doubt Williams is going to be the third star to go along with Cuz and McLemore. Heck, McLemore is not a star at the moment but gives plenty of hope as a scorer - a scoring role player if I may take liberty with the concept of a role player. My biggest hope is that the third star is found in the upcoming draft giving us Cuz/McLemore/draft pick, we will have the core to a decent and maybe even a great team. There are no guarantees with DWill OR the upcoming draft. If you are for the DWill trade, I cannot understand why you can put down the upcoming draft.

I do not know what Luc's knee injury is/was except that whatever he had recovered without surgery. If he merely banged knees with someone, this worry is being overblown. If it wasn't a case of banged knees and he truly IS on his last legs (pun intended) he will not pass the physical at Minnesota. Somehow he passed our physical a few months ago. Did our skilled FO think Luc's knees were no issue when we acquired him and now have changed their minds? If people wish, I'll see what I can come up with concerning Luc's knees if they give me a head start on finding the info that supports the idea that he is an aging (27?) vet with deteriorating knees who is about to crumble. I like facts.



Who is JLM? I have seen those initials bandied about.

I agree, The Kings cannot go out and get Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul etc. If the goal is for the Kings to tank then they picked a good year to do so. As Kings fan we are just happy they are playing in Sacramento at the moment so if PDA wants to tank the team then he will never get a better moment to do so.

 

[Larry David]

Fans here can get crazy. They will deny it ... but if you asked most fans here for their take on Luc 5 months ago, the vast majority would say "Oh, he's pretty good. Works hard but pretty limited player." Luc becomes a Kings and now he's very very good and vital. Luc is traded for a guy who is not a King and it's a bad trade for fans that had dreams of how Luc could help us.

Look at how fans viewed Landry. Young Landry with Rockets good player. Trade to Kings, now he could be a top 3 player on a pretty good team. Landry traded, now he's not very good ... maybe done in a few years. Good year with Ws, doesn't matter he's not that good. Now that he's a Kings again, he's better and has 3-4 good years in him (to some here).

This team doesn't play defense and Luc plays defense, but he has no long term future on this roster ... or perhaps the league. He's a replacement level forward that was brought in for a 2nd rounder to help out at the SF sink hole. The team tried not to completely bottom out for a while. It happened any how. So they flipped Luc for a Williams flyer. No big deal but a good idea.