Mark Kreidler: Maloofs need to pay up for a piece that doesn't fit

[Venom]

On the other hand, though, just letting him walk for nothing is ridiculous, especially since we gave up a big part of our team in Doug to get him. Now, if they let him walk and then put a couple of big men and a perimeter defender in the lineup in his place, then I'm fine with that. If they let him walk to free up a few million dollars that otherwise wouldn't be really adding anything to the type of team we want to build, and spend to get what we really need, I'm fine with that.

But DC's career looks like it is over, so we already came out of that trade on top by dropping his salary a year early. I don't think people understand that, although I know you do. Whether we re-sign Cat or not, it is already a successful trade from a front office/ownership standpoint. The need to keep him or even sign and trade him in order to justify the Christie trade does not exist. That trade has already been validated. Now, there is no reason not to explore any S&T options that may be out there, but Cat should not be on our opening day roster. That is too risky. And especially when there are two, maybe three, talented guys behind him in Garcia, Martin, and possibly Evans.

 

[Rowdyone]

I'm confused...why would Mobley re-sign with us to do a sign and trade where he has no say so where he was going? Yeh, he get's his $9 million a year but winds up playing for Atlanta while we get one of their young wings? And if he goes to Orlando to be with his bud, Stevie Franchise, word there is that he's on the block too.

 

[VF21]

He would "sign and trade" with us as a way to be able to go to a team that couldn't sign him outright. He wouldn't sign with us UNLESS he was guaranteed that he would be traded. to the team he wanted.

 

[Alacron]

He would "sign and trade" with us as a way to be able to go to a team that couldn't sign him outright. He wouldn't sign with us UNLESS he was guaranteed that he would be traded. to the team he wanted.

So I guess the big question is, Where does Mobley want to go that doesn't have the cap room to sign him outright, and has something we'd be willing to trade him for?
~~

 

[VF21]

There's a thread about that... but it's only July 4. Since you can't sign free agents until July 22, we might have a couple of weeks to wait before actually knowing anything. You know how Petrie is about not letting his plans become public prematurely.

 

[ONEZERO]

Denver here we come.

 

[ONEZERO]

If I'm not mistaken, the hornets have a good amount of money to spend. With that, can't mobley just sign with them for the salary he wants, and with the hornets needing some size as well, they trade him to denver for nene and fillers possibly? I'm pretty sure that something like this could and just might happen. IMHO, that would really screw us.

 

[Bricklayer]

If I'm not mistaken, the hornets have a good amount of money to spend. With that, can't mobley just sign with them for the salary he wants, and with the hornets needing some size as well, they trade him to denver for nene and fillers possibly? I'm pretty sure that something like this could and just might happen. IMHO, that would really screw us.

No, you can't sign and trade a player not on your roster. They would have to wait for 90? days (not sure of the period) or some such before trading Cat. And that would be an ugly maneuver I've never seen performed anyway. Besides, no advantage to anybody for it to be done that way -- Cat can get the same amount of money, Denver can trade the same pieces to us, by just having us do the sign and trade now. The Hornets are completely unnecessary since we, as his home team, can sign him for however much money we want to without their help. Heck, we coud sing him to the max if we wanted to. So there is no advantage to Cat or anybody else to go get a fourth team involved if he wants to go to Denver. All he has to do is reach an agreement with Denver on salary, come to us, have us go to Denver and say which players we'd like in trade, and then we sign him to whatever the number is and trade him for Nene + filler ourselves.

 

[ONEZERO]

^^oh, I didn't know that. So ur saying we have an advantage over other teams in the S&T? That's a good thing to hear.

 

[AriesMar27]

If I'm not mistaken, the hornets have a good amount of money to spend. With that, can't mobley just sign with them for the salary he wants, and with the hornets needing some size as well, they trade him to denver for nene and fillers possibly? I'm pretty sure that something like this could and just might happen. IMHO, that would really screw us.

thats why we need to get steven hunter..... he's like a bigger blacker version of pollard, skinner and keon but into one..... then we can just start martin or garcia....

 

[Bricklayer]

^^oh, I didn't know that. So ur saying we have an advantage over other teams in the S&T? That's a good thing to hear.

yeah, we should be safe from any dickering around by third party teams.

Our real danger is just that he decides to either take the money from a lesser team with the cap room to sign him outright, or decides to take less money, amybe even the exception, from a team of his choice.

 

[4cwebb]

The Maloofs are not cheap, as some people have decided they are since they let Keon Clark and Jim Jackson walk a couple summers ago to get our payroll down under $80 million, and now since they aren't interested in overpaying for middling-talent players.

From what I can see, upper management and ownership are willing to pay for players that they think can help improve our team. Players like Brad Miller (who got paid the same summer that we let Clark and Jackson go) who actually give us something that we need and that can't be found elsewhere for less.

If a top-tier talent player - or even a player that just adds a dimension that we need - were available, the Maloofs would be willing to pay out for him. That doesn't include Cuttino Mobley.

This is really just me carrying a grudge, but I would take exception to the statement that JJax was let go so that the Kings could find someone else who provided what he did (and more) for less money. On the contrary, the team lost what he provided, and didn't replace it with anything (since Adelman and Gerald Wallace couldn't get on the same page for whatever reason - not pointing fingers at one or the other). The Maloofs, in that instance, were cheap.

 

[4cwebb]

Pierce is NOT less versatile -- probably the opposite. He is also a better help defender (in that he actually does sometimes). And he may even be a better man to man defender, but that's only when he plays like it matters, which is not always.

Peja's effort is more consistent. That's both a good and a bad thing given the results. Pierce can either be better, or considerably worse, depending on his effort. When he is better he can at times be adefensive force and have a real effect on the game. When he doesn't care he's a revolving door. Much like TMac, a change of scenery might do wonders.

One other point to add in the Peja vs. Pierce on defense debate: Pierce does one thing relatively consistently on the defensive end, and that's rebound. It'd be nice to have a SF rebound the basketball consistently at a productive level.

 

[Superman]

Fair enough, me saying that they are in a penny-pinching mode may be a little harsh. But there is evidence of it, such as the Barry(?) and a 1st round pick for Cleaves trade. Pure cost-cutting move to the detriment of the team move. I hope your right that they will put out to improve the team. It seems to me that the last few years there has been an adversion to doing that. Salaries have dropped, prices have raised. I do not expect them to go back to the $80 million dollar level of payroll.

I disagree. What on-court time did we have for Jon Barry? He was a fan favorite, and that's why a lot of people think that move was to the detriment of the team. But it really wasn't. We were set at the two positions that JB played. I'd love to still have him on the team, but we didn't need him.

In the article by Kriedler there was the assertion that the Maloofs would like to be below the Luxury Tax limit (a Maloof imposed hard cap if that is accurate). There isn't much room between what is already commited in salary and what the Luxury tax limit would be (at least the level that has been reported). If they are going to remain close to that level, they can't absorb the salary from a S&T, use the mid-level and exhaust the trade excemptions. That is not even including resigning Songalia if desired (excluding Evans 'cause he will probably take some of the mid-level). I can see them using a combination of those, just not all of them. As I have said before, I am not against doing a S&T immediatly that improves the team, but am against signing him to do a trade at a later date.

I don't think that the Maloofs would pass on a deal that would definitely improve the team in the areas that we need to improve, as long as we could do the deal. If Amare was available via sign and trade and we had a shot at him, I think the Maloofs would do it whether we were in luxury tax land or not, because he's a player that's worth it. The players that have been shaved off of the payroll to lower penalties (Keon Clark, Jim Jackson, Jon Barry, though there was no luxury tax at that time) weren't worth what they would have cost. The Maloofs have paid big money to essential pieces while at the same time moving other pieces that weren't so essential or cost-effective, or both.

I actually think we are saying close to the same thing as far as Mobley goes. I just think we may have a different opinion on the Maloofs willingness to take on substantially more salary. I hope your right because I am afraid that this is one time that it will cost added salary in order to improve.

Like I said, if the right player was available, the purse strings would open, especially with the tax being set a lot higher this season than it has been in the past.

 

[Superman]

But DC's career looks like it is over, so we already came out of that trade on top by dropping his salary a year early. I don't think people understand that, although I know you do. Whether we re-sign Cat or not, it is already a successful trade from a front office/ownership standpoint. The need to keep him or even sign and trade him in order to justify the Christie trade does not exist. That trade has already been validated. Now, there is no reason not to explore any S&T options that may be out there, but Cat should not be on our opening day roster. That is too risky. And especially when there are two, maybe three, talented guys behind him in Garcia, Martin, and possibly Evans.

Don't mistake ownership and upper management for a group that just cares about the bottom line and runs the team strictly as a money-making business. The Maloofs business is the Palms, not the Kings. The Kings are for entertainment, for fun. Of course it's a lucrative industry, but they want to win. They just don't want to pay $80 million plus a dollar for dollar tax for anything over the luxury tax threshold, especially for a team that's not at the top and ready to win.

The Christie trade was not just to get his contract off the books a year early, not knowing that they'd eventually have to fill that hole anyway. That trade was in search of a player that could eventually fill the hole Doug was leaving at off-guard: facilitator, defender, utility man, etc., or either a player that could be used to acquire something else. Besides, there was no guarantee that Cuttino would be opting out this summer anyways, in which case we would have been stuck with him on the roster just as long as we would have been stuck with Doug.

If management lets Cuttino go, they lost Doug for nothing. We at least have some leverage on the trade block and when the shot clock winds down.

I don't understand why so many fans are stuck in the 2003-04 way of thinking, that a player who isn't "pass-first" 24/7 is a cancer and doesn't fit into this team's plans. Maybe Cuttino fits, and everyone else passes too much. Maybe they wanted to get rid of Doug and get a player who wouldn't be afraid to take a money shot in a big game in the playoffs. Maybe Mobley will fit in better with a full training camp and a full season. Why is it so outside of the realm of possibility that he can help the team in more ways than just being used as trade bait?

 

[Superman]

This is really just me carrying a grudge, but I would take exception to the statement that JJax was let go so that the Kings could find someone else who provided what he did (and more) for less money. On the contrary, the team lost what he provided, and didn't replace it with anything (since Adelman and Gerald Wallace couldn't get on the same page for whatever reason - not pointing fingers at one or the other). The Maloofs, in that instance, were cheap.

I carry the same grudge, as I really wish we would have kept Jackson. He didn't even wind up getting that much from Houston.

At the same time, though, we at least had a plan. Develop Gerald (which was done to an extent, but hampered by injuries and Adelman's refusal to use the kid), look for another backup swingman, and deal with it.

But remember, the same things that are being said about Mobley - shoot first, pass later mentality, doesn't really fit the team's "plans", known for being a cancer, etc. - were said about JJ, even after that season, by members of this board.

 

[VF21]

Don't mistake ownership and upper management for a group that just cares about the bottom line and runs the team strictly as a money-making business. The Maloofs business is the Palms, not the Kings. The Kings are for entertainment, for fun. Of course it's a lucrative industry, but they want to win. They just don't want to pay $80 million plus a dollar for dollar tax for anything over the luxury tax threshold, especially for a team that's not at the top and ready to win.

The Christie trade was not just to get his contract off the books a year early, not knowing that they'd eventually have to fill that hole anyway. That trade was in search of a player that could eventually fill the hole Doug was leaving at off-guard: facilitator, defender, utility man, etc., or either a player that could be used to acquire something else. Besides, there was no guarantee that Cuttino would be opting out this summer anyways, in which case we would have been stuck with him on the roster just as long as we would have been stuck with Doug.

If management lets Cuttino go, they lost Doug for nothing. We at least have some leverage on the trade block and when the shot clock winds down.

I don't understand why so many fans are stuck in the 2003-04 way of thinking, that a player who isn't "pass-first" 24/7 is a cancer and doesn't fit into this team's plans. Maybe Cuttino fits, and everyone else passes too much. Maybe they wanted to get rid of Doug and get a player who wouldn't be afraid to take a money shot in a big game in the playoffs. Maybe Mobley will fit in better with a full training camp and a full season. Why is it so outside of the realm of possibility that he can help the team in more ways than just being used as trade bait?

Thank you! I think you've just done an excellent job of presenting another completely possible side to the whole Mobley issue.

 

[chelle]

I must just be confused with the whole salary issue. If we want to keep Cat, we sign him. If not, why not just spend the money on someone who can help us more? Money can't really be the issue. Afterall, what difference does it make if we pay for Mobley or another free agent? Is the real question, "Who is an available free agent that can help us more than Cat and that would demand a comparable salary?" If there is, why not just go after him? If not, then I understand the need to sign and trade him, if he would agree. Am I missing something more about the issue of signing him? I think that making this decision is bigger than we realize and could end up affecting the team for seasons to come. Makes me glad that I do not have to make the final decision. I just get to complain or (hopefully) applaud Petrie's choice.

 

[VF21]

We are over the salary cap. We cannot just spend any amount of money on any player out there. It's different for players who have been on our team. We can pay Cat whatever we like. BUT Cat has to agree to the deal. Since he's opted out of the contract he had with us, he wants more money than we really want to spend for him. So, by doing a sign and trade, we act as the middle man - we essentially commit another team to paying him what he wants in exchange for players of comparable salary level from that team.

You might want to check out this site: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

It has some really good FAQ that might help clear up the confusion.

 

[chelle]

Thanks!

 

[BigSong]

We are over the salary cap. We cannot just spend any amount of money on any player out there. It's different for players who have been on our team. We can pay Cat whatever we like. BUT Cat has to agree to the deal. Since he's opted out of the contract he had with us, he wants more money than we really want to spend for him. So, by doing a sign and trade, we act as the middle man - we essentially commit another team to paying him what he wants in exchange for players of comparable salary level from that team.

You might want to check out this site: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

It has some really good FAQ that might help clear up the confusion.

honestly mobley is kidding himself if he expects to get more than the option that was available via the Kings. Whats more probable is that he wants a 4-5 year deal because he isn't getting any younger.

 

[VF21]

When I said he wanted more money, I was including a longer deal than simply one year...which would obviously mean more money.

 

[Venom]

Don't mistake ownership and upper management for a group that just cares about the bottom line and runs the team strictly as a money-making business. The Maloofs business is the Palms, not the Kings. The Kings are for entertainment, for fun. Of course it's a lucrative industry, but they want to win. They just don't want to pay $80 million plus a dollar for dollar tax for anything over the luxury tax threshold, especially for a team that's not at the top and ready to win.

Yeah, but as rich as everybody here thinks they are, they're not Steinbrenner. And the Palms is pretty well leveraged. It's doing big business, but I have no idea how profitable it is. It also still cannot compete with the big boys on the Strip, and Wynne just opened up his new place. Also, their whole cost cutting thing started when the Palms was being built and opened. I don't find that to be a coincidence. All that effects how the Kings are run. They're not Paul Allen, or even Dr. Buss.

The Christie trade was not just to get his contract off the books a year early, not knowing that they'd eventually have to fill that hole anyway. That trade was in search of a player that could eventually fill the hole Doug was leaving at off-guard: facilitator, defender, utility man, etc., or either a player that could be used to acquire something else. Besides, there was no guarantee that Cuttino would be opting out this summer anyways, in which case we would have been stuck with him on the roster just as long as we would have been stuck with Doug.

If management lets Cuttino go, they lost Doug for nothing. We at least have some leverage on the trade block and when the shot clock winds down.

I'm going to raise the flag on this. At first blush, that's what it looked like, because that is how it was sold. But then all that stuff started coming out about how bad DC's injuries were and that he was gutting them out for the Kings and his teammates. They knew he was done and they unloaded him to clear that contract a year early. And what NBA player opts in to a player option? Everyone knew Cat was opting out, that's why Orlando traded him, and Orlando has his bestest friend in the whole wide world, Stevie Franchise. If he was opting out of that situation he was definitely opting out of the Kings. What leverage on the trade block? When did Cat become some hot commodity? He's a decent player who looks good on bad teams, like the Rockets and Magic. If we still had Webber and were in win now mode, sure, keep him. But, as everybody likes to say, that ship has sailed. Bottom line, no matter what DC meant to the team in the past, you do not keep dead contracts on your roster if you can avoid it, and the Magic provided a way. Another thing, the logic used to justify the Webber trade, that he was old, breaking down, and not worth the contract, somehow does not apply to DC?

I don't understand why so many fans are stuck in the 2003-04 way of thinking, that a player who isn't "pass-first" 24/7 is a cancer and doesn't fit into this team's plans. Maybe Cuttino fits, and everyone else passes too much. Maybe they wanted to get rid of Doug and get a player who wouldn't be afraid to take a money shot in a big game in the playoffs. Maybe Mobley will fit in better with a full training camp and a full season. Why is it so outside of the realm of possibility that he can help the team in more ways than just being used as trade bait?

Look, I wish we did have some cancers on this team, but give me some Artest cancer, or Pierce cancer, not Cat. Here is what I do not understand about the whole Cat situation, and the offseason in general. Everyone talks about improving defense and intensity, and yet they want all our free agents back. That makes no sense. By the bye, Doug was never afraid to take big shots, he just airballed a really important one, but so did Peja. I don't care if Mobley will fit in better after training camp, he should not be on the opening day roster. We are clearly in a slight rebuilding mode, and we have two first round draft picks at his position who are longer, more athletic, better passers, and probably shoot better. If Cat can actually help this team that means we are at the same talent level as the Rockets of old and the Magic of today, which is really just sad. Like I've said, entertain all S&T ideas, but under no circumstances sign him outright. Depending on what goes down with Peja/KT/Corliss/BJax, this team could have some nice cap space as early as next year. There is no reason to screw that up in order to keep Cat in the fold.

 

[whozit]

I never stated that the Maloofs were 'cheap' However, I do believe the days of spending freely to improve the team are many years behind us now. We can all agree that Petrie is a smart GM, correct? As such, I am sure he didn't pull the trigger on the Mobley trade without thinking it through and knowing that Mobley walking and the Kings ending up with squat to show for the trade was a very real possibility, perhaps even a probability. We know, too, that the powers that be had already decided last years team was going nowhere, so the move wasn't made to add the one piece for THAT season, right? Which leads me to believe, if they let him walk without attempting to somehow leverage his available salary slot into someone we can use, I will have to conclude that the deal was made to SHAVE that money.
Trade exeptions are nice, but we have had them before and not used them. Just because they are available doesn't mean they will be used this year either. The moves made this summer should answer the question of which is the more important goal, cap management, team improvement, or a 'do what you can under the lux tax' kind of attitude. All well within their rights as owners, to be sure.

As far as the Maloofs spending goes, I think we are on the same line of thinking and it doesn't make me very confident going into the future. Whether or not they attempt to use him in a S&T probably won't be known unless it happens.

You are right that the team has a history of letting trade exemptions expire. They let 5 million expire with the Keon Clark trade and nearly another million go when they lost Wallace in the expansion draft. But the same thing can be said about the mid-level. I could be wrong, but I believe that the team has left mid-level exemptions unused at least a couple of the years during its existance. The one thing I am pretty certain about is that they WILL NOT use all of the options available. Whatever options the do use, any pieces they pick up must part of upgrades, the team cannot afford any more downgrades in any part of its talent base.

 

[nbrans]

I originally posted this in the other Mobley to Denver thread, but I think here is the better spot for it.

Indiana needs a shooting guard with Miller retiring, but they don't have a lot of cap space. Sign and trade Cuttino for Ron Artest?

On the plus side we get one of the most talented players in the league and we get one of the top five defenders in the league. On the minus side we'll all have to wear helmets to Arco, just in case.

 

[VF21]

There is no way the Pacers would do that deal. If Petrie got Larry Bird to agree to it, the entire Pacer fan base would storm the castle with pitchforks and flaming torches.


Edited: Wrong former Celtic, as pointed out.

 

[Diabeticwonder]

Indiana needs a shooting guard with Miller retiring, but they don't have a lot of cap space. Sign and trade Cuttino for Ron Artest?

Indiana does not need a SG. They have Stephen Jackson and they aren't going to replace him with Cat. Bird also said this past week that they are not going to trade Artest and I really think that if they were going to trade him it would have been last season during his suspension so they could have at least gotten something for him to make a run rather than holding onto a player that was suspended.

 

[nbrans]

Oops, wrong former Celtic, VF21 ;-)

I agree it's not likely, I'm just more curious if people in Sacramento would be happy if it happened. I'm guessing yes.

Stephen Jackson is better suited for the SF. But I think you're right, Diabeticwonder, if they were going to trade Artest, last year would have been the itme to do it.

 

[Bricklayer]

Oops, wrong former Celtic, VF21 ;-)

I agree it's not likely, I'm just more curious if people in Sacramento would be happy if it happened. I'm guessing yes.

Stephen Jackson is better suited for the SF. But I think you're right, Diabeticwonder, if they were going to trade Artest, last year would have been the itme to do it.

Well obviously its so unbalanced that you would just about have to do it regardless of your concerns about Artest's sanity. But that said, its also so unbalanced that I'm not even sure if you could throw in enough sweetneres to even make Indiana sniff. Multiple first round picks maybe. Maybe. But probably not even then. Maybe if Bird has a lobotomy sometime in the next few weeks.

 

[VF21]

Oops, wrong former Celtic, VF21 ;-)

Oops. I was trying to respond to two different threads at the same time and mixed my former Celtics.

I agree it's not likely, I'm just more curious if people in Sacramento would be happy if it happened. I'm guessing yes.

Stephen Jackson is better suited for the SF. But I think you're right, Diabeticwonder, if they were going to trade Artest, last year would have been the itme to do it.

You really need to go back in the past threads and read the stuff about a proposed Peja for Artest trade. Although the Pacer has changed, I think a lot of people made it pretty clear how they feel about Artest.

There were mixed feelings when Webber first came to town, that only became more polarized as time went on. Those were nothing compared to the mixed feelings about Ron Artest. The polarization on him becoming a King is already obvious. IF he came here and anything else happened, it could well cause a virtual melt-down of a good percentage of the fan base.