The Hammer
All-Star
Any questions?
(Any questions about GP, too? I think we can call that two friggin rad trades in a row.)
(Any questions about GP, too? I think we can call that two friggin rad trades in a row.)
Marcus Thornton
- Thread starter The Hammer
- Start date
Showtime
Starter
GP isn't responsible for the idiot on the other line. Just about everybody in the league knew this guy was a up-and-coming scorer, but it was if NOLA was ready and willing to pull the trigger on a deal.
The Hammer
All-Star
Yeah your're right. You convinced me. We shouldn't give Petrie any credit. At all. Especially when he nabs one of the best up and coming scorers in the game for a 6reb a game PF. Unbelievable.
Your silly argument only serves to strengthen GP's performance in the trade, if "everybody" knew about Thornton.
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vikinginferno
Starter
Ummm, I don't think so. A lot of people felt (and likely some still feel) that Thornton was just doing a lot of scoring on a bad team and with him "seeming" to regress in New Orleans, it was not an obvious deal. Go and look at the trade thread on here and you will see that the vast majority didn't like the deal.
Gary
All-Star
Get this... I posted about this a while back in the trade deadline thread about a dream I had...
"He was the type of player that you weren't thinking about trading for but when his name came up you would say "ahhh why didn't I think abou tthis guy". "
But in my dream I think he was from Milwaukee, or Indiana... But a young player that was underacheiving... Fits Thorton to a T.
Showtime
Starter
Again, I really don't understand your stance. GP can't force anybody to agree to a deal, he can only find out if the guys that he's interested in are available and try to make something work. He did his part, but that's only half the battle. We hear about deals being talked about and worked on all the time that fall through. Just because GP wanted Thornton and got him doesn't mean he's such a fantastic GM, because everybody in NBA circles knew what kind of player Marcus was. I might agree with you on this if he was a totally unheard of guy being misused (similar to John Salmons), but this isn't the case. It was just a matter of what NOLA was willing to get in return, and the kings were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to make a deal happen.
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Showtime
Starter
Yes, and that is because most fans on here don't know jack about things that are going on outside of the Sacramento Kings. All that does is prove what kind of knowledge (or lack thereof) kings fans have, not about me being incorrect. I mean really, how many hornets games do people here watch when they aren't playing the Kings? Could you really say you watched even 10-15 games the last two years? I doubt it. Most fans here aren't hardcore NBA fans. They couldn't name 5 players on other teams. But most hornet and hardcore NBA fans knew Marcus's game, knew he put up numbers given the opportunity his rookie season, and that this young guy had potential to be a good scorer in this league. The reason he was dealt was compound. First off, he wasn't meshing well with Monty. Funny thing, since Scott didn't play the rookies Collison and Thornton, and yet when he was replaced, they got time and started producing. Monty comes in, sees guys like Marco and Green making a second year Thornton expendable, plus he doesn't get along with him and doesn't like his defense, and boom he's in the doghouse. Add in some other issues regarding ownership, roster depth, and the GM, and you get the right situation to grab a good prospect who might otherwise not be dealt in another situation.
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ParniValjak
All-Star
Well by your comment previously, just about everybody in the league has known that Thornton is an up and coming scorer but if that was the case, why didn't thay make offers BETTER than Thorton AND cash for Landry?!?!
If Everyone knew that Thornton was SO good and was a certain thing, then other teams would have made offers much better than we did and as a result, he would be playing for other team instead of the Kings.
This leads to a conclusion that not many teams thought that Thornton was an up and coming scoring machine OR they did but didn't want to offer much for him which kind of defeats the argument that everyone knew he was this good.
Gary
All-Star
The fans didn't like Belinelli starting. They wanted Thorton starting over him, and had no idea why Belinelli was getting the nod over Thorton. At least according to their forums.
zo0mmike
G-League
Yeah, sucks that we won't be able to enjoy the fruits of our labor of suffering through all the lins.
kingsnation
All-Star
If this is true, then is there such a thing as a "good," or "great" GM?
As others have said, if Thornton's talent was so demanded, there would've been more on the table for him.
Agent23
Starter
It was just a matter of time before someone said that. Next thing you know, people are going to start making trade Reke threads.
He's being asked to do a lot of the scoring here, too. To his credit, he has mostly delivered. I didn't get to see much of the game, so I don't know if it was in the flow of the offense or still a lot of one on one. Playing against the Warriors, who often think of defense as a contagious disease, also helps.
I think he needs to be that offensive punch off the bench when Tyreke returns, so that he can go buck-wild against the other team's 2nd rotation and either maintain a lead, or increase it. Either way, adding one more (quality) player has added quite a bit of depth to this team. Thornton has definitely helped us out.
UK_King
Starter
I'm pretty sure the Heat fans say "Wade Who?" when lebron scores 40 as well.
They proved in Cleveland you win titles with one great player i guess!
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Frankly, I don't care who gets the credit as long as he's on our team. That aside, your arguement makes no sense at all. Using your logic, no GM would ever get credit for any deal he made. I heard people on this fourm bitching about this trade when it happened. Complaining that if this is all we end up with out of the Martin trade Pertrie should be fired. So people were more than willing to blame him if it turned out badly, but not give him credit now that it appears to have turned out in our favor. Excellent objectivity!!!!
Megalodon
Bench
Tyreke, Cousins, Thornton + Lottery.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Sorry Spike, I couldn't disagree more. Thornton should start. Lets see how good a distributer Tyreke can be now that he has players to pass to. Cisco is a very good spot up shooter. Thornton can score from anywhere on the court. And both Cousins and Dalembert can hurt you inside. I want to see how Tyreke can adjust to having other good scorers on the floor and if he can make himself trust them. The Kings are very dangerous offensively with Thornton out there. I think having Beno come off the bench with Taylor, Casspi, and Thompson, gives us the best depth off the bench we've had in some time.
Tyreke has been called a PG. At worse, he's a combo guard. Lets use the rest of the season once he comes back to see just how good he can be with above average talent around him. Thornton is too good on this team to come off the bench. Plus he gives us a chance to jump on teams early, like last nignt. By the way, I believe he had 4 steals in the game.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
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Peter_Gibbons
Starter
We got really lucky by being able to get Thornton for Landry (someone we most likely wasn't going to resign).
I mentioned this in another thread about this trade, Chris Paul, contrary to what some people believe, is a real drama queen. First they had to trade away all rookie 1st team Darren Collison for an average player Trevor Ariza because Chris Paul apparently didn't like having another young up and coming PG playing on the team. Then when Marcus Thornton shined during CP3's injury, CP had him iced on the bench for most of this season because he didn't want to share the ball with MT or figure out a way to play with him.
It all comes down to that we got a good microwave for our bench for many years if we are able to sign him.
I mentioned this in another thread about this trade, Chris Paul, contrary to what some people believe, is a real drama queen. First they had to trade away all rookie 1st team Darren Collison for an average player Trevor Ariza because Chris Paul apparently didn't like having another young up and coming PG playing on the team. Then when Marcus Thornton shined during CP3's injury, CP had him iced on the bench for most of this season because he didn't want to share the ball with MT or figure out a way to play with him.
It all comes down to that we got a good microwave for our bench for many years if we are able to sign him.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I don't think how Thornton scores is important. So far he's taken what the other team has given him and thats what your suspossed to do. He is an excellent spot up shooter, but to limit him to just that would be tying one hand behind his back. If everyone is focused on Tryeke and they leave the lane open, then Thornton should and will take advantage of it. Thornton is an entirely different animal that Martin. Martin relied on others setting screens and pick for him to get open. Martin wasn't that good a ballhandler, which showed its ugly head when he would dribble into traffic. Not trying to knock Martin, just pointing out the differences. Reggie Miller spent almost all of his career as a spot up shooter and relying on screens. Thornton can create his own shot. He's a very good ballhandler and has little trouble dribbling through traffic. And so far, he's been more than willing to concede to his teammates. I think he and Tyreke can play well together, and there's only one way to find out.
I might add, that although defensively no one will confuse him with the great Mitch Richmond, he's certainly been better than Beno. So while the defense won't become one of the leagues best, it will improve some.
Hopefully Thornton's 40 point scoring explosion (and really, he's been doing it consistently since he got here) will convince Westphal to do the right thing and keep him in the starting lineup when Reke gets back. Our best two guards should be in the starting lineup. What happens next year is going to depend on where we sit in the draft and who's available, but with each game it becomes more and more clear that both Dalembert and Thornton should be retained regardless.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Again on this a huge x-factor is the passing of Cousins, and to a lesser (and surprising) degree, Dalembert. We could once again, as we have for most of the last dozen years, have the best passing big man in the game on the roster. And he's coming into his own. Reke won't necessarily be out there on his own, because a lot fo the offense may eventually be able to be run through Cousins as well.
When Shaq and Kobe were the Lakers stars, how much other passing did they have? No other starter averaged more than 4 assists. They got a little here, a little there. Guys who who were smart enough not to force shots, but few creaters. And both Cousins and Reke are more natural passers comparatively than either Shaq or Kobe. Let's say you added Jeff Green as the SF -- Jeff Green is a good passer, good ball mover. Dalembert, formerly known as a black hole, has shown you can actually run occasional high post passing plays with him. You could get it done. One other note: consider a starting linuep of Reke/Thornton/?/Daly/Cousins. How many of those guys actually NEED soem great creative player out there to get their offense for them. I don't know that there are the shots to go around, but Reke, Cousins and Thronton all create their own offense with little trouble. And Daly is a defensive roleplayer, who actually is develping some real chemsitry with Cousins. Basically with that lineup you wouldn't need extra passing because all the main guuns can take care of themselves.
I would also once agian like to note ITS NOT THE OFFENSE. At least not primarily. We score as many or more points than several of the playoff teams out there already, and that's with young talent who is still not nearly as efficient as it will be. We have to figure out how to make the other side of the ball better. You can be 47-18 scoring like we do (see Boston, Chicago). But you need to sop the other team.
When Shaq and Kobe were the Lakers stars, how much other passing did they have? No other starter averaged more than 4 assists. They got a little here, a little there. Guys who who were smart enough not to force shots, but few creaters. And both Cousins and Reke are more natural passers comparatively than either Shaq or Kobe. Let's say you added Jeff Green as the SF -- Jeff Green is a good passer, good ball mover. Dalembert, formerly known as a black hole, has shown you can actually run occasional high post passing plays with him. You could get it done. One other note: consider a starting linuep of Reke/Thornton/?/Daly/Cousins. How many of those guys actually NEED soem great creative player out there to get their offense for them. I don't know that there are the shots to go around, but Reke, Cousins and Thronton all create their own offense with little trouble. And Daly is a defensive roleplayer, who actually is develping some real chemsitry with Cousins. Basically with that lineup you wouldn't need extra passing because all the main guuns can take care of themselves.
I would also once agian like to note ITS NOT THE OFFENSE. At least not primarily. We score as many or more points than several of the playoff teams out there already, and that's with young talent who is still not nearly as efficient as it will be. We have to figure out how to make the other side of the ball better. You can be 47-18 scoring like we do (see Boston, Chicago). But you need to sop the other team.
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Showtime
Starter
I said people who are hardcore NBA fans knew about him. Not everybody is a hardcore NBA fan. And why didn't another team get him? Because they have a bad GM that thinks that Landry will add some depth, and if resigned, could soften the blow once D West leaves, because West and the team are too far apart in their extension discussions, and he's likely gone from the hornets in free agency. It's poor management decisions that have helped the kings in this circumstance.
Not every team needed a perimeter scorer. My point it this: just because you or other kings fans may not have realized how Thornton produced at the end of last season, or the circumstances of his time this season in NOLA, doesn't mean that people in NBA circles were unaware of him and that GP pulled a rabbit out of the hat on this one.
Again, if anybody paid attention to him at the end of last season, they knew he had potential. You can check his numbers from Feb onward once Scott was replaced and the rookies got some PT:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thornma01/splits/2010/
Second, just because teams weren't salivating over a perimeter scorer doesn't mean he wasn't on the radar. Not everybody is looking for that specific piece, and the hornets management made a poor decision to mortgage their future on trying to win now.
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Showtime
Starter
It's funny, because the same people who evaluate GMs based on deals made are often some of the people who say a guy is a bad GM when deals aren't made, and have no idea what is discussed behind closed doors and what direction the team is going. All we can do is judge by what we know, and what we know is that this trade was in favor of the kings, which is all you can ask. GP took advantage of a situation and made the team better. That's his job, and IMO he's one of the better GM's in the league. But what I don't think is that you can give him most of the credit for the situation the hornets were in that made this deal possible.
I never said his "talent was so demanded". I said people knew about what his game was all about. There's a difference. He's playing right now how he played at the end of last season. He's giving the kings exactly what GP and others saw he gave the hornets. The thing is, not everybody is in the market for a 2 guard whose primary asset is scoring.
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