Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)

He doesn't come out flat. Plays with an edge at all times.

Dropped 21/9/10 when his shot wasn't falling, yet still closed it as that's in his DNA.

His ceiling isn't this 23/7/5 crap people push. It's more 28/8/8 who controls the flow of the game.
 
He doesn't come out flat. Plays with an edge at all times.

Dropped 21/9/10 when his shot wasn't falling, yet still closed it as that's in his DNA.

His ceiling isn't this 23/7/5 crap people push. It's more 28/8/8 who controls the flow of the game.
Didn't you know that his ceiling is Gordon Hayward? And he's not as athletic so probably won't even be that good.

That was some hard-hitting, nuanced analysis.
 
He doesn't come out flat. Plays with an edge at all times.
When I look into the future and want to believe we have one of the best futures in comparison to the conference I find myself comparing Luka/Fox at times. I still think when both are ‘on’ their games Fox is a better two way player, but the above makes me question if he can hang with Luka. The intensity factor. I’m getting concerned it might be a perpetual issue for De’Aaron, given what I’ve seen last year and this year. Hope he helps assuage my concerns
 
I really really hope you are right. If not we will regret this for the next decade.
Marvin will be a very good player.

That said, I won't back off from what my eyes tell me. I wasn't all that interested in the Kings for a few years and during that time, lived in Europe. Had the chance to watch many of Luka's games and see him in person multiple times. As I posted around draft time, he was one of, if not the best 18 yr olds I've ever seen in person.

So when I approach the Luka debate it isn't even about Luka vs Marvin. It's Luka vs the rest of the NBA. I had him as the clear #1 pick before the draft based on what I saw in person. He was already a star, just switching leagues, much like you see in soccer. And because I saw best Euro ever written all over him.

Seems to me the NBA got hit by something they weren't prepared for. Fans of teams many times will attempt to convince themselves those they trust made the right decision. That's never been my approach. I don't care if it was Pho, Sac or ATL, Luka was the top pick in this draft based off what I saw.

I'm surprised by how many are surprised. Really not a good look for the NBA.
 
Marvin will be a very good player.

That said, I won't back off from what my eyes tell me. I wasn't all that interested in the Kings for a few years and during that time, lived in Europe. Had the chance to watch many of Luka's games and see him in person multiple times. As I posted around draft time, he was one of, if not the best 18 yr olds I've ever seen in person.

So when I approach the Luka debate it isn't even about Luka vs Marvin. It's Luka vs the rest of the NBA. I had him as the clear #1 pick before the draft based on what I saw in person. He was already a star, just switching leagues, much like you see in soccer. And because I saw best Euro ever written all over him.

Seems to me the NBA got hit by something they weren't prepared for. Fans of teams many times will attempt to convince themselves those they trust made the right decision. That's never been my approach. I don't care if it was Pho, Sac or ATL, Luka was the top pick in this draft based off what I saw.

I'm surprised by how many are surprised. Really not a good look for the NBA.
Ask Charles "I don't know what I'm talking about but I want to express my opinion" Barkley
 
I don't think the NBA as a whole is that surprised. Luka was the consensus #2 pick most places, and #1 among many of the Blog Boys. It wasn't like picking Dirk when there had been a sparse history of success by European players or picking Giannis based off of grainy video from a tiny gym. It was there for everyone to see on the biggest stage outside of the NBA.

When we hit on #2, it seemed like everything was lining up perfectly. At #1, we'd have had the tough decision between Ayton and Doncic. I wouldn't want to bet my future on Ayton due to his low motivation, but it's also hard to pass on a big man with those tools. Luckily, the Suns were going to pick him so no worries! If there was any worry we might pass on Luka, certainly not with Vlade and Peja in the front office, right? We love Bogdan, so why wouldn't we superlove a bigger, younger version who is likely already better than him?

If somehow we didn't want to go that way and wanted a big man, the pick is obviously Jaren Jackson with his dominant defensive potential (he's already leading the league in defense near the rim.) Bagley was the player that I did not want. He did not have any obvious trait that is elite at the NBA level other than his jumping, which is not in itself a basketball result but can be applied in a few areas. He doesn't have great length or a great frame, and hasn't proven to have great ball skills. When I first heard talk we were zeroing in on Bagley, I didn't believe it, thinking it to be a smokescreen. It wasn't until a couple of days before the draft that I realized they were serious.

So, it took me awhile to get into this season despite the early success and I am still salty about it now, though I am enjoying the team more and more. With where our franchise is and has been, you simply don't pass on an elite talent based on prejudging team fit. Not even now in hindsight with our current success; we are far beyond expectations but still only a bit above .500 on the shaky foundation of late deep-hole comebacks. Great fun, but not enough to erase mistakes that were made. And we certainly weren't in the position back in June to make the pick as if we were sliding in the last piece of our championship lineup. We might not be winning in precisely the same way with Fox and Luka sharing the ball, but we would have more options over now, where we are often screwed when we can't get out and run. We would likely have fewer long dry spells.

So, basically we nightly watch Luka playing at an All-Star or maybe near-MVP consideration level, and Jackson looking like a future All Defensive player at least, while we hope that once Marvin returns from injury he can secure a spot in the starting lineup. Marvin has given me reason for hope with his motor and apparent hard work in adding to his game. His handle and outside shot look smoother than I thought. The times he's used his right hand look smooth enough that I'm not sure why he doesn't use it more than 2 percent of the time. Hopefully with work and development he can become a more versatile player than he appeared in college, because the TYPE of player he has been to this point, even at its highest ideal level, no longer has the value in the current NBA that it once did. I have seen more than enough to be sure that he isn't a bust and will be a productive player, so that is something.

I know many of these points have been hit on repeatedly, but I wasn't posting until a few days ago, so I had to vent. I'm enjoying everything that is happening, but I'm sorry, I will be holding some bitterness in my heart for a while. :p

GO KINGS!
 
I realize you are an unabashed Luka fan, and I like him too, but you’re flat out full of hyperbole. As good as he’s been, he’s nowhere close to a top 4 player in the world. I love De’Aaron Fox as much as anyone and can readily admit he’s not close either. Both very good players that might reach that level someday, but still have a long way to go.
 
I realize you are an unabashed Luka fan, and I like him too, but you’re flat out full of hyperbole. As good as he’s been, he’s nowhere close to a top 4 player in the world. I love De’Aaron Fox as much as anyone and can readily admit he’s not close either. Both very good players that might reach that level someday, but still have a long way to go.
In the past month Luka is a top 10 player in the league. There’s not much to debate there. If you asked NBA executives at this moment which player would they like build their franchise around I don’t think you would find more than 9 ahead of Luka. Thus top 10 for me.

Rebuild franchise around

AD
Jokic
Giannis
Kawhi

These players depends on where your franchise is as a whole

KD
Lebron
Steph (?)
Harden
Russ
PG13


That’s the entire list for me. The only players truly young enough to rebuild around that are in his talent bracket are AD, Kawhi, Jokic and Giannis, right now. He’s behind all four currently but I would not put anyone else ahead of him.
 
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Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
In the past month Luka is a top 10 player in the league. There’s not much to debate there. If you asked NBA executives at this moment which player would they like build their franchise around I don’t think you would find more than 9 ahead of Luka. Thus top 10 for me.

Rebuild franchise around

AD
Jokic
Giannis
Kawhi

These players depends on where your franchise is as a whole

KD
Lebron
Steph (?)
Harden
Russ
PG13


That’s the entire list for me. The only players truly young enough to rebuild around that are in his talent bracket are AD, Kawhi, Jokic and Giannis, right now. He’s behind all four currently but I would not put anyone else ahead of him.
That's still moving the goalposts, a little. "Top Four player in the world" to "Top Four young player to rebuild around" are two very different statements. And, even with that qualifier, you're stipulating that he's, at best, a close fifth. And, for the record, I don't mean anything negative by "at best," that's not me bashing Doncic. That's just me saying, as good as he is, those guys are way better.

EDIT - As I make no secret of my bias towards big men, I would personally place Doncic outside of the Top 15, although I will quickly stipulate that, in 2019, with the way the rules in the "modern NBA" are oriented, it would be easier to build a team around Doncic than several of the players that I'd rank ahead of him. Like, I don't think that anyone could articulate what would make Luka Doncic 'better' than Joel Embiid: at worst, they are on the same level, and I personally value what Embiid does more than I value what Doncic does.
 
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That's still moving the goalposts, a little. "Top Four player in the world" to "Top Four young player to rebuild around" are two very different statements. And, even with that qualifier, you're stipulating that he's, at best, a close fifth. And, for the record, I don't mean anything negative by "at best," that's not me bashing Doncic. That's just me saying, as good as he is, those guys are way better.

EDIT - As I make no secret of my bias towards big men, I would personally place Doncic outside of the Top 15, although I will quickly stipulate that, in 2019, with the way the rules in the "modern NBA" are oriented, it would be easier to build a team around Doncic than several of the players that I'd rank ahead of him. Like, I don't think that anyone could articulate what would make Luka Doncic 'better' than Joel Embiid: at worst, they are on the same level, and I personally value what Embiid does more than I value what Doncic does.
Agree with you completely.

The only thing I'd add is that Luka has only played 33 games. As much as I liked him prior to and after the draft, he's not done enough IMO to compare to a Joel Embiid yet. Embiid has proven over the course of several seasons and nearly 130 games to be a truly dominant player. I don't think most GM's would take Luka over Ben Simmons right now either.

That said, Luka is looking every bit of the player I had hoped he'd be (if the Kings had drafted him) and could very well be better than all these guys in due time. Who knows. I just hope MB3 reaches the potential most believe he has so that I don't have to be pissed off for the next 15-20 years. ;)
 
That's still moving the goalposts, a little. "Top Four player in the world" to "Top Four young player to rebuild around" are two very different statements. And, even with that qualifier, you're stipulating that he's, at best, a close fifth. And, for the record, I don't mean anything negative by "at best," that's not me bashing Doncic. That's just me saying, as good as he is, those guys are way better.

EDIT - As I make no secret of my bias towards big men, I would personally place Doncic outside of the Top 15, although I will quickly stipulate that, in 2019, with the way the rules in the "modern NBA" are oriented, it would be easier to build a team around Doncic than several of the players that I'd rank ahead of him. Like, I don't think that anyone could articulate what would make Luka Doncic 'better' than Joel Embiid: at worst, they are on the same level, and I personally value what Embiid does more than I value what Doncic does.

All of your points are fair. I am just amazed that he is even in the conversation already. I genuinely thought he would be a better Joe Ingles in his first year in the league so I am having to eat a hearty portion of humble pie. I completely forgot about Embiid. His health does worry me but skill wise he’s definitely ahead at the moment you are correct.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
The only thing I'd add is that Luka has only played 33 games. As much as I liked him prior to and after the draft, he's not done enough IMO to compare to a Joel Embiid yet. Embiid has proven over the course of several seasons and nearly 130 games to be a truly dominant player. I don't think most GM's would take Luka over Ben Simmons right now either.
I've got to push back on that, somewhat. At a previous point in my history, I would have felt compelled to rank several other players ahead of Doncic, citing sample size. I've come to reject that notion, because I've come to have a higher regard for the standard of basketball played in EuroLeague.

I think the thing about passing on Doncic was partly due to NBA general managers not being able to overcome deeply-ingrained prejudices about the standard of European basketball. And, owing greatly to that first part, partly due none of the general managers picking in the Top Three of the 2018 NBA draft having the requisite job security or support from ownership to be willing to risk drafting a European player in the Top Three and being wrong. The thing about American-born players is, you can always sell the team's owner on "upside," whereas European players tend to be seen as more finished projects. If Divac had drafted Doncic second overall, and Doncic had underwhelmed, it would have been Jimmermania all over again: Divac would have been accused of passing over certainties, in favor of "Euro bias"; he probably wouldn't have made it to the All-Star break, before being fired.


Dallas had the right combination of a general manager who recognized Doncic's talent, and ownership who would have been willing to risk a "Stanton-esque" swing and a miss. And, lest any Kings fan who is feeling themselves about the team's success, and revising the Cousins trade as a 'win' for Sacramento, we're not going to know who 'won' the Doncic trade until we find out who Atlanta gets with Dallas' pick.
 
I don't think the NBA as a whole is that surprised. Luka was the consensus #2 pick most places, and #1 among many of the Blog Boys. It wasn't like picking Dirk when there had been a sparse history of success by European players or picking Giannis based off of grainy video from a tiny gym. It was there for everyone to see on the biggest stage outside of the NBA.

When we hit on #2, it seemed like everything was lining up perfectly. At #1, we'd have had the tough decision between Ayton and Doncic. I wouldn't want to bet my future on Ayton due to his low motivation, but it's also hard to pass on a big man with those tools. Luckily, the Suns were going to pick him so no worries! If there was any worry we might pass on Luka, certainly not with Vlade and Peja in the front office, right? We love Bogdan, so why wouldn't we superlove a bigger, younger version who is likely already better than him?

If somehow we didn't want to go that way and wanted a big man, the pick is obviously Jaren Jackson with his dominant defensive potential (he's already leading the league in defense near the rim.) Bagley was the player that I did not want. He did not have any obvious trait that is elite at the NBA level other than his jumping, which is not in itself a basketball result but can be applied in a few areas. He doesn't have great length or a great frame, and hasn't proven to have great ball skills. When I first heard talk we were zeroing in on Bagley, I didn't believe it, thinking it to be a smokescreen. It wasn't until a couple of days before the draft that I realized they were serious.

So, it took me awhile to get into this season despite the early success and I am still salty about it now, though I am enjoying the team more and more. With where our franchise is and has been, you simply don't pass on an elite talent based on prejudging team fit. Not even now in hindsight with our current success; we are far beyond expectations but still only a bit above .500 on the shaky foundation of late deep-hole comebacks. Great fun, but not enough to erase mistakes that were made. And we certainly weren't in the position back in June to make the pick as if we were sliding in the last piece of our championship lineup. We might not be winning in precisely the same way with Fox and Luka sharing the ball, but we would have more options over now, where we are often screwed when we can't get out and run. We would likely have fewer long dry spells.

So, basically we nightly watch Luka playing at an All-Star or maybe near-MVP consideration level, and Jackson looking like a future All Defensive player at least, while we hope that once Marvin returns from injury he can secure a spot in the starting lineup. Marvin has given me reason for hope with his motor and apparent hard work in adding to his game. His handle and outside shot look smoother than I thought. The times he's used his right hand look smooth enough that I'm not sure why he doesn't use it more than 2 percent of the time. Hopefully with work and development he can become a more versatile player than he appeared in college, because the TYPE of player he has been to this point, even at its highest ideal level, no longer has the value in the current NBA that it once did. I have seen more than enough to be sure that he isn't a bust and will be a productive player, so that is something.

I know many of these points have been hit on repeatedly, but I wasn't posting until a few days ago, so I had to vent. I'm enjoying everything that is happening, but I'm sorry, I will be holding some bitterness in my heart for a while. :p

GO KINGS!
The roughest part is that, IMO, I can’t have a belief that we got the best player in the draft as Doncic is so far advanced (will be hard to catch JJ’s two way game as well).

Like, usually, even if certain players are better in their first year than others, like Mitchell/Donovan last season, you can justify still your top prospects can still feasibly catch them. Lakers fans probably thought that with Ball, Bulls with Markannen etc etc.

Doncic is showing so much that I feel we are already in damage control, in terms of getting our prospect to close the difference as much as possible

Part of the draft and having prospects is having fun with the belief that your prospect can still be the best of the bunch. Doncic has just been too good to allow it for me, even only a third of one season in
 
I've got to push back on that, somewhat. At a previous point in my history, I would have felt compelled to rank several other players ahead of Doncic, citing sample size. I've come to reject that notion, because I've come to have a higher regard for the standard of basketball played in EuroLeague.

I think the thing about passing on Doncic was partly due to NBA general managers not being able to overcome deeply-ingrained prejudices about the standard of European basketball. And, owing greatly to that first part, partly due none of the general managers picking in the Top Three of the 2018 NBA draft having the requisite job security or support from ownership to be willing to risk drafting a European player in the Top Three and being wrong. The thing about American-born players is, you can always sell the team's owner on "upside," whereas European players tend to be seen as more finished projects. If Divac had drafted Doncic second overall, and Doncic had underwhelmed, it would have been Jimmermania all over again: Divac would have been accused of passing over certainties, in favor of "Euro bias"; he probably wouldn't have made it to the All-Star break, before being fired.

Dallas had the right combination of a general manager who recognized Doncic's talent, and ownership who would have been willing to risk a "Stanton-esque" swing and a miss. And, lest any Kings fan who is feeling themselves about the team's success, and revising the Cousins trade as a 'win' for Sacramento, we're not going to know who 'won' the Doncic trade until we find out who Atlanta gets with Dallas' pick.

Regarding NBA GM’s, Euro League, and American born players, I again agree.

My current view on Doncic vs the likes of Embiid, Simmons and numerous others is strictly based upon NBA experience and sample size.