Looking forward to how Joerger will play WCS

[Sac.1989]

all i will say is this - please start and invest in WCS DJ. The benefits will be reaped at the end of next season when we are heading into the post season.

No jerking him around. Trill and Boogie to start and further solidify that chemistry.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Trill + Cuz + Joerger.......


If all goes well (for once) we could have one of the scariest frontcourts in the league..... If not THE scariest.

I'm definitely looking forward to how Joerger users Trill.

Heck, after Karl poo'd all over our last season I'm excited to see how Joerger uses EVERYBODY. I wouldn't be surprised to see Belli have a bounce back year. Heck, even Ben might get back on track as that serviceable two way SG he showed flashes of becoming under Malone.

..... Goodness Karl was awful. I feel like every optimistic thread makes me think back on what a horrible waste last season was.

Anyways, Trill! Sorry to kinda derail.

im sure joerger will look at some tape of him under malone to see how he was used. karl didn't maximize the talent on this team

 

[206Fan]

Your doing something here that I don't like. Your taking your image of WCS, and trying to make it fact. You have no real idea of what WCS is truely capable of yet. And neither do I. He didn't take his 15 foot jumper very often last year, but he shot it well when he did. I he hadn't had that one game where everyone kept encouraging him to shoot every time he touched the ball, his overall jumpshot percentage would have been around 50%. Players develop and improve. Willie is a hard worker, and he's probably working hard as I write this.

Try and keep an open mind when it comes to young players. You say he's not a good passer. Based on what? How often did he actually have the opportunity to make a meaningful pass, and when he did, was he successful? Look, I'm not saying he's going to be a great passer, but I'm not about to say he won't. I simply don't know. What I do know, is that he seldom turned the ball over, and when he did, it usually wasn't because of trying to pass the ball. What Willie is capable of, or not, is a conversation we should have a couple of years from now.

WCS has done nothing for me to think that he'll develop a good jumpshot. He didn't show it in college. His ft% was still pretty bad at 61.7% on 3attemps/game.
Is that what we're drawing his "potential to become a jumpshooter" on? He shot 33.3% on 2pt jumpers http://hoop-math.com/Kentucky2015.php
For perspective, you can see that Lyles was at 39.2% and KAT was at 43.1%.

I'm looking at his skillset coming out of college. It's what I'm basing that on.

Just from looking at previous NBA track records, there just aren't a lot of 21yearold players coming out of college with almost 0 offense who turn into good jumpshooters and elite passer. Both are essentially what you need to make the high-low action work.

 

[Glenn]

WCS has done nothing for me to think that he'll develop a good jumpshot. He didn't show it in college. His ft% was still pretty bad at 61.7% on 3attemps/game.
Is that what we're drawing his "potential to become a jumpshooter" on? He shot 33.3% on 2pt jumpers http://hoop-math.com/Kentucky2015.php
For perspective, you can see that Lyles was at 39.2% and KAT was at 43.1%.

I'm looking at his skillset coming out of college. It's what I'm basing that on.

Just from looking at previous NBA track records, there just aren't a lot of 21yearold players coming out of college with almost 0 offense who turn into good jumpshooters and elite passer. Both are essentially what you need to make the high-low action work.

Willie took 25 jump shots in three years of college. I personally think he has good mechanics in the NBA. I'm no guru on this but I'm seeing something different than you are. Let's hope I am right. I think he has very good offensive potential. Tune in next year, eh?

 

[206Fan]

Willie took 25 jump shots in three years of college. I personally think he has good mechanics in the NBA. I'm no guru on this but I'm seeing something different than you are. Let's hope I am right. I think he has very good offensive potential. Tune in next year, eh?

I really hope WCS turns into an offensive stud and proves me wrong. I think his mechanics were OK(at best), but it was inconsistent. Could this be a sign of him trying to correct it? Maybe. We'll have to disagree on this one, but let's see what happens

 

[KingMilz]

I really hope WCS turns into an offensive stud and proves me wrong. I think his mechanics were OK(at best), but it was inconsistent. Could this be a sign of him trying to correct it? Maybe. We'll have to disagree on this one, but let's see what happens

if Quincy Acy can turn into a decent jump shooter I really don't see why WCS can't, Acy had equally crap mechanics with a way slower release. This year watching him I was actually far more impressed by WCS offensive feel (made nifty instinct passes, good face up dribble move, nice jump stops, decent hooks) than I was with his defense (defensive rebounding, not being able to defend stretch 4's, general inconsistency), while his defensive potential is clearly massive and bigger than his offensive potential he's got far more natural talent on offense than a lot of NBA C's.

 

[BeerNerd916]

I dont think we can put much stock in what WCS did or didnt show last year under a coach who continuously jerked him around and took absolutely ZERO interest in his development.

The kid has great tools and really good instincts and feel for the game. I cant wait to see what implementation of a real system and some structure can do for his career.

 

[Kingster]

The expectation for WCS coming out of college was that he could guard stretch fours in his rookie year. The reality was that he couldn't. There was also some expectation that he would average around one rebound every three minutes; the reality is he averaged one rebound every four minutes. However, his athleticism, in particular his speed, does augur a pretty high ceiling on defense, but there's no way to tell how quickly he manifests it. The most promising thing I saw from WCS was his BBIQ. He does have a good feel for the game, and can make quick decisions with the ball. This bodes well, imo, for his future progress, unlike what we saw from Jason Thompson or Ben McLemore. He also seems to have a pretty good shooting touch, and if he works at his game and gets good coaching he might be a darn good catch and shoot kind of player.

 

[Livinthedream]

WCS is older than Ben. He has spent time developing who he was prior to entering the NBA. WCS may become a slightly better shooter but not a great one. We have to be careful hoping someone turns into something he's not, or you set yourself up for disappointment if it's never reached.

WCS needs to polish his defensive abilities first and lock that part of his game down. Any improvement on the offensive end is gravy. If we wanted an offensive Center, then we should have drafted one.

 

[Flopi]

WCS is older than Ben.

Nitpicking here but WCS is actually 6 months younger than Ben.
That being said, I agree with you: WCS needs to perform on the defensive end. I love his activity and instincts but he tends to over rely on his athletic abilities and isn't always in good position/stance.
Any offensive improvement would be a bonus but he seems to put a lot of work and I think he can become a good finisher in the paint and on open shots.

 

[kingjatt]

Im interested in seeing better player development overall from the kings as an organization. We have had the worst player development in the league for a long time now, we just seem to throw guys out there who aren't ready and ask them to do too much, there is rarely any grooming involved. There should be detailed off season plans, fitness expectations etc and long term plans for each one of the young prospects, not just throw them out their and see who sticks. Now that everyone seems to be on for the long haul (GM,Coach,Assistants etc) there shouldnt be any job security distracts and we can finally function as a competent organization. I don't expect immediate results but over time taking it slow and being methodical will payoff, not trying to throw money/assets at our problems and trying to sneak into a quick 8 seed as soon as possible.

 

[Larry89]

He will be the best pick and roll defender in the NBA.

 

[Gilles]

The expectation for WCS coming out of college was that he could guard stretch fours in his rookie year. The reality was that he couldn't. There was also some expectation that he would average around one rebound every three minutes; the reality is he averaged one rebound every four minutes. However, his athleticism, in particular his speed, does augur a pretty high ceiling on defense, but there's no way to tell how quickly he manifests it. The most promising thing I saw from WCS was his BBIQ. He does have a good feel for the game, and can make quick decisions with the ball. This bodes well, imo, for his future progress, unlike what we saw from Jason Thompson or Ben McLemore. He also seems to have a pretty good shooting touch, and if he works at his game and gets good coaching he might be a darn good catch and shoot kind of player.

Thing is Kaminsky played in college the same way stretch 4s do in the league, and Willie really struggled to follow Frank after little bumps and changes of direction. Willie is amazing at contesting penetration, working off the ball is absolutely new for him, since only few college teams can really use anything resembling complex NBA sets in their playbook, and Cal concentrates on few fundamentals: Kentucky uses pretty simple plays, so you can only learn to defend them in practice.

 

[hrdboild]

Im interested in seeing better player development overall from the kings as an organization. We have had the worst player development in the league for a long time now, we just seem to throw guys out there who aren't ready and ask them to do too much, there is rarely any grooming involved. There should be detailed off season plans, fitness expectations etc and long term plans for each one of the young prospects, not just throw them out their and see who sticks. Now that everyone seems to be on for the long haul (GM,Coach,Assistants etc) there shouldnt be any job security distracts and we can finally function as a competent organization. I don't expect immediate results but over time taking it slow and being methodical will payoff, not trying to throw money/assets at our problems and trying to sneak into a quick 8 seed as soon as possible.

I couldn't agree more. Player development is how you have sustained success. We're not going to be able to buy a team in our market so we need to be smart about targeting the right kinds of players and investing time and money into giving them the best support possible. Every single player should have an off-season plan and a training staff tracking their health. Ideally we should always have a few young players we're stashing on the bench and grooming for rotation spots down the line.

 

[bajaden]

WCS has done nothing for me to think that he'll develop a good jumpshot. He didn't show it in college. His ft% was still pretty bad at 61.7% on 3attemps/game.
Is that what we're drawing his "potential to become a jumpshooter" on? He shot 33.3% on 2pt jumpers http://hoop-math.com/Kentucky2015.php
For perspective, you can see that Lyles was at 39.2% and KAT was at 43.1%.

I'm looking at his skillset coming out of college. It's what I'm basing that on.

Just from looking at previous NBA track records, there just aren't a lot of 21yearold players coming out of college with almost 0 offense who turn into good jumpshooters and elite passer. Both are essentially what you need to make the high-low action work.

Obviously you know nothing of how it works at Kentucky. Calapari runs a very tight ship. Because a player doesn't show all he's capable of there, doesn't mean he's incapable. Doesn't mean he is capable either. But it does show some prudence to not jump to conclusions, which is what your doing. No one, and I mean no one knew that Cousins had a jumpshot. No one, and I mean no one knew that Cousins could handle the ball as well as he could. No one, knew that Booker was as good as he's shown to be. Calapari puts players into a role, and he won't let them deviate from it.

People have this habit of putting players in a box and labeling them. And sometimes those labels end up being right, but sometimes they end up being wrong. So I like to take a wait and see attitude, especially when it comes to Kentucky players.

 

[bajaden]

WCS is older than Ben. He has spent time developing who he was prior to entering the NBA. WCS may become a slightly better shooter but not a great one. We have to be careful hoping someone turns into something he's not, or you set yourself up for disappointment if it's never reached.

WCS needs to polish his defensive abilities first and lock that part of his game down. Any improvement on the offensive end is gravy. If we wanted an offensive Center, then we should have drafted one.

I'm curious, who it is, under the defensive system that Karl had last year, that looked good playing defense. WCS was totally misused defensively last season. Kingster said he was incapable of guarding stretch fours. When exactly last season was his job to guard only a stretch four. He might start out guarding one, but might end up guarding the other teams PG by the end of the sequence. There was no rhyme or reason to how the Kings played defense last year. It was hardly a measuring stick for WCS's ability.

 

[hrdboild]

I'm curious, who it is, under the defensive system that Karl had last year, that looked good playing defense. WCS was totally misused defensively last season. Kingster said he was incapable of guarding stretch fours. When exactly last season was his job to guard only a stretch four. He might start out guarding one, but might end up guarding the other teams PG by the end of the sequence. There was no rhyme or reason to how the Kings played defense last year. It was hardly a measuring stick for WCS's ability.

Yeah, the switching scheme we used this season was crazy. Nobody was defending the three point line effectively in that scheme so it wasn't a problem specific to Cauley-Stein. I think the biggest thing for him to improve on as a defender will be adding lower body strength to be able to hold position in the post without losing his speed. It's a difficult balance and it may take him a few years to figure it out but for someone who went into the season unimpressed with Cauley-Stein in college he completely turned me around in 6 months. He's a uniquely disruptive weapon to throw out there against teams that rely on dribble penetration and pick and rolls for the majority of their offense. Mostly I was impressed with his mental toughness though. I knew he was particularly mobile for a 7 footer but I was worried he was going to float out there in space without effectively guarding anyone and he looked a lot tougher and more focused than I had given him credit for. He's going to be an important player for us either as a starter or the first big off the bench. And if the current trend of PFs getting smaller and more perimeter oriented continues, holding position in the post may be a non-issue.

 

[kingsboi]

Yeah, the switching scheme we used this season was crazy. Nobody was defending the three point line effectively in that scheme so it wasn't a problem specific to Cauley-Stein. I think the biggest thing for him to improve on as a defender will be adding lower body strength to be able to hold position in the post without losing his speed. It's a difficult balance and it may take him a few years to figure it out but for someone who went into the season unimpressed with Cauley-Stein in college he completely turned me around in 6 months. He's a uniquely disruptive weapon to throw out there against teams that rely on dribble penetration and pick and rolls for the majority of their offense. Mostly I was impressed with his mental toughness though. I knew he was particularly mobile for a 7 footer but I was worried he was going to float out there in space without effectively guarding anyone and he looked a lot tougher and more focused than I had given him credit for. He's going to be an important player for us either as a starter or the first big off the bench. And if the current trend of PFs getting smaller and more perimeter oriented continues, holding position in the post may be a non-issue.

Can't give in to this trend, it's not a long term trend anyway IMO. It's just in the now, we need to think in the now and the future, give me a big bruising team of big men and guards.

 

[Livinthedream]

I'm curious, who it is, under the defensive system that Karl had last year, that looked good playing defense. WCS was totally misused defensively last season. Kingster said he was incapable of guarding stretch fours. When exactly last season was his job to guard only a stretch four. He might start out guarding one, but might end up guarding the other teams PG by the end of the sequence. There was no rhyme or reason to how the Kings played defense last year. It was hardly a measuring stick for WCS's ability.

I didn't criticize his defense. Defense is his best attribute, and I want him to continue to hone that skill. He has a chance to be one of the best defensive players in the league. He's not going to be one of the best offensive players no matter what. So, put your time where it's going to benefit you most. That doesn't mean he shouldn't get better offensively. But putting him in a situation where we want him to be a playmaker on offense is going to have an impact on the other side of the ball.

 

[Telemachus]

I didn't criticize his defense. Defense is his best attribute, and I want him to continue to hone that skill. He has a chance to be one of the best defensive players in the league. He's not going to be one of the best offensive players no matter what. So, put your time where it's going to benefit you most. That doesn't mean he shouldn't get better offensively. But putting him in a situation where we want him to be a playmaker on offense is going to have an impact on the other side of the ball.

What would have happened if GS had taken this approach with Draymond Green?

 

[Livinthedream]

What would have happened if GS had taken this approach with Draymond Green?

Green had a much bigger offensive skill set in college. Including the ability to shoot the three and make plays.

I don't know how else to say that you should cater to a player's strengths and not wish he was someone else.

 

[Telemachus]

Green had a much bigger offensive skill set in college. Including the ability to shoot the three and make plays.

I don't know how else to say that you should cater to a player's strengths and not wish he was someone else.

I think the point you are missing is that we don't know all of his strengths and weaknesses. Coach Cal has a habit of not letting us see all that a player is capable of doing. Someone pointed out that he was only a 61% FT shooter in college. Yet, he shot 64.8% last year and 75% the second half of the season. No one knew he dribble the ball up court on a fast break, or had a nice hook shot in the lane. He was never allowed to do those things at KY.

 

[bajaden]

Can't give in to this trend, it's not a long term trend anyway IMO. It's just in the now, we need to think in the now and the future, give me a big bruising team of big men and guards.

While you could be right, you also have to remember why or how this trend started. It started with rule changes that made if far more difficult to guard quicker, more athletic players on or near the perimeter. So teams started taking advantage of those rule changes by going to smaller quicker players that could shoot the ball. I suspect that it will stay that way until some of the rules change. My point is, that's its more than just a trend.

 

[bajaden]

I didn't criticize his defense. Defense is his best attribute, and I want him to continue to hone that skill. He has a chance to be one of the best defensive players in the league. He's not going to be one of the best offensive players no matter what. So, put your time where it's going to benefit you most. That doesn't mean he shouldn't get better offensively. But putting him in a situation where we want him to be a playmaker on offense is going to have an impact on the other side of the ball.

I don't think anyone is talking about Willie being a playmaker. All I'm disputing is the assumption that he'll never be a good jumpshooter. No one knows. Ibaka didn't have a jumpshot when he came into the league, and to be honest, Willie has a better jumpshot right now than Ibaka had when he arrived. Players improve over time. What I object to is when people make blanket statements about a players future abilities. We Don't know! And that's a fact. We can speculate of course, which means that you, or I may think we know what a players limits are. But we can't state it as fact. And some people do. Not talking about you in this case.

 

[Gliesian]

While you could be right, you also have to remember why or how this trend started. It started with rule changes that made if far more difficult to guard quicker, more athletic players on or near the perimeter. So teams started taking advantage of those rule changes by going to smaller quicker players that could shoot the ball. I suspect that it will stay that way until some of the rules change. My point is, that's its more than just a trend.

It certainly feels like the NBA meta has changed big time. Personally, I'd rather watch a dumb oaf power his way through three guys over a dumb weakling jacking shots without passing. They should nerf the 3 point line and make it a foot longer. It needs to be rebalanced. Make 2 pt jumpers worth something again!

 

[206Fan]

Obviously you know nothing of how it works at Kentucky. Calapari runs a very tight ship. Because a player doesn't show all he's capable of there, doesn't mean he's incapable. Doesn't mean he is capable either. But it does show some prudence to not jump to conclusions, which is what your doing. No one, and I mean no one knew that Cousins had a jumpshot. No one, and I mean no one knew that Cousins could handle the ball as well as he could. No one, knew that Booker was as good as he's shown to be. Calapari puts players into a role, and he won't let them deviate from it.

People have this habit of putting players in a box and labeling them. And sometimes those labels end up being right, but sometimes they end up being wrong. So I like to take a wait and see attitude, especially when it comes to Kentucky players.

While this is true, WCS also showed no capability of playing in the post. He showed very little touch, and very little footwork ability. Do we just discount that? So if WCS sucked in the post, and he actually had a real jumper, why would Calipari hide that? He needed floor spacing on that team with Noel(freshman year). He only had 1 move...jumphook, and it was more of a "potential to develop jumphook for NBA".

I don't think anyone is talking about Willie being a playmaker. All I'm disputing is the assumption that he'll never be a good jumpshooter. No one knows. Ibaka didn't have a jumpshot when he came into the league, and to be honest, Willie has a better jumpshot right now than Ibaka had when he arrived. Players improve over time. What I object to is when people make blanket statements about a players future abilities. We Don't know! And that's a fact. We can speculate of course, which means that you, or I may think we know what a players limits are. But we can't state it as fact. And some people do. Not talking about you in this case.

I'm sorry Baja, I hardly ever strongly disagree with you, but I do right now. You're completely wrong. Ibaka had a jumper coming into the NBA. How could you even possibly say that WCS has a better jumpshot right now? Especially since you're the one who's said he's barely taken any (true). That's so wrong...I remember watching Ibaka hit jumpers, and I remember it was even a strength. Ibaka had a jumpshot WELL before he came into the league. It's an insult to even suggest that WCS had a better jumper than

Aran Smith - 9/27/2007
Strengths: A tremendous athlete blessed with insane length and leaping ability Conjures up memories of Shawn Kemp. Ibaka reportedly had a higher vertical than any of the players drafted in the 2007 draft. Which is extremely unusual for a taller player Despite his immense physical gifts, Ibaka hustles at all times and works hard on his game showing a lot of improvement in a short time He's currently playing in Spain for L'Hospitalet Has solid footwork in the post, and an improving turn around jumper He can even extend out to the 3 pt line and knock down shots on occaision Has the tools to become a first round pick in the next year, as he is not far from having an NBA ready body, and plays hard He's relentless on the boards and his length and athleticism makes him a formidable shot blocker Has good touch on his shot, and solid mechanics, he just needs to become more comfortable with his offensive game so it becomes second nature

NBA.COM 2007

Strengths: Physical specimen with an abundance of raw athletic ability. Possesses an outstanding vertical leap for a taller player and gets off the floor quickly. Has range on his face-up jumper.

Jonathan Giovny 2008 during Reebok camp

. His lack of polished low post skills and his ability to shoot jumpers, even with some fade-away moves, lead some people to believe that he was avoiding contact. In Treviso we’ve seen him going towards the basket and, if he didn’t have space to dunk, seek his rival’s body to get the upper-hand when it comes to finishing around the rim. Also, the few times he decided to play in the low post, he looked pretty physical.

BleacherReport

Synopsis: Ibaka came on strong late in the pre-draft season, as African big men tend to do as they measure out well. While he is raw, he has great athleticism and sound shot blocking and rebounding abilities already. Unlike most imported big men, he also has an 18-footer he can utilize. Obviously, Ibaka will be a project, and with so many failures in recent years he could slip, and a year or two developing in the Spanish League seems likely.

Video with jumpers:

Don't believe me? Look at his shot chart for yourself....
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201586/stats/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular Season

He took nearly 150 mid range jumpers!

 

[kingsboi]

While you could be right, you also have to remember why or how this trend started. It started with rule changes that made if far more difficult to guard quicker, more athletic players on or near the perimeter. So teams started taking advantage of those rule changes by going to smaller quicker players that could shoot the ball. I suspect that it will stay that way until some of the rules change. My point is, that's its more than just a trend.

but don't the rules change as the game changes too? if teams went and started playing big again and started harassing teams on defense, old rules would apply again. maybe not. who knows?

 

[Kingster]

Thing is Kaminsky played in college the same way stretch 4s do in the league, and Willie really struggled to follow Frank after little bumps and changes of direction. Willie is amazing at contesting penetration, working off the ball is absolutely new for him, since only few college teams can really use anything resembling complex NBA sets in their playbook, and Cal concentrates on few fundamentals: Kentucky uses pretty simple plays, so you can only learn to defend them in practice.

Yes, I think you were one who didn't buy into the notion that he was an instant stretch four stopper.

 

[ESP47]

Right he's basically in "chill mode" all game

And for the record, I don't think it's because of lack of effort or that he's lazy. He just doesn't have any instincts. Everything I read is always saying that he's there early to practice and one of the last ones to leave. Sounds like he's putting in the effort, just not getting the results.

 

[Kingster]

I'm curious, who it is, under the defensive system that Karl had last year, that looked good playing defense. WCS was totally misused defensively last season. Kingster said he was incapable of guarding stretch fours. When exactly last season was his job to guard only a stretch four. He might start out guarding one, but might end up guarding the other teams PG by the end of the sequence. There was no rhyme or reason to how the Kings played defense last year. It was hardly a measuring stick for WCS's ability.

There were particular games - New Orleans and Atlanta come to mind - where WCS tried guarding the stretch four. He couldn't do it. Sure, I would expect that the coach discontinued the stretch 4 experiment when he wasn't very good doing it. It was there for everybody to see and many did comment about it. As I recall, at the beginning of last season I asked the question on this board how WCS was going to affect the opposing teams offense, and the general consensus was, yes, he's going to guard those stretch fours, you just wait. It didn't happen. Will he eventually be able to guard those stretch fours? I would expect he will. I just don't know when.