Let's discuss new guys (from June 2016)

[Livinthedream]

Six inches of vertical doesn't exactly make up for six miles of basketball talent.

Vlade said that because of Valentine's knee problems, he was too big of a risk at 13. He would have taken him at 22 if available.

 

[CelticsFan]

Isaiah Cousins reminds me of CJ Watson. Very good backup and great value pick at #59. Won't blow you away with his physical tools, but is tough as nails and competes. Decent passer and shots +40% from 3.

Watching Papa play, he has potential to be a more athletic Marc Gasol IMO without the passing ability.

I don't see the Gasol comparison. Gasol is an elite passer and a former defensive player of the year. Big George is a project and has a high potential to bust.

 

[Dayo]

I don't know how credible those reports are but it could make some sense if Ainge wanted Papagiannis at 16 and Yabusele at 23 (they seem like they would be nice compliments to one another actually) and when the Kings grabbed big Papa the Celts nabbed Yabusele there instead. Also makes sense given that the C's drafted a center at 23 anyway.

Hi! According to BasketballInsiders.com, Celtics were interested in Papagiannis at #23 along with 76ers, Hornets and a few more. 76ers were there ones who showed the most interest because they were monitoring Papa for a really long time. Steve Kyler of BI had once wrote in twitter that according to his inside infos, Papa would be a pick of 76ers either at #24 or #26 if available.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-am-is-derrick-rose-on-his-way-out/

International big man Georgios Papagiannis could be the Philadelphia 76ers’ pick at No. 24 or No. 27 – not as a roster player this season, but more as a draft and stash. The problem for the 76ers is they are not alone in their interest in the 7’2 big man. The Celtics are there at No. 23 and the Hornets are there at No. 22, and both are said to be very high on Papagiannis as well.

You could read the scouting notes about Papagiannis from DraftExpress in the following post, even if i am not entirely sure its visible to all.
http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/lets-discuss-the-new-guys-and-welcome-btw.65981/page-4#post-1262046

 

[CelticsFan]

I don't know if this is credible, but I read on twitter that Celtics had Papa John on their board at 16, and the Pistons wanted him at 18 very much.

If so, Vlade didn't brain freeze... he did what he had to do to get the asset he wanted.

Does anybody know if Celtics and Pistons really had their eye on Papa John in the teens?

Papa came to Boston for workout I wouldn't have been surprised if they took Big George at 16 because they were looking to stash guys for a few years (they drafted two guys in the first to stash). I don't think he's ready for the NBA. It will be fun to see what these guys do in Summer League next week

 

[206Fan]

The more I think about it, I'm very fine with the Papagiannis pick. Vlade is right, we do need to look past this year. I think last year's idea of of winning now made me embrace it, and I thought we were going towards the same direction with this draft.

If Vlade and Co. can develop Papagiannis, he's definitely going to be our starting C for the future. Have no clue what this means for Cousins in 3 years though.

 

[Warhawk]

my issue is not that we picked up a bunch of prospects, but with the way the roster is currently constructed, how are these guys all going to get minutes?

Seems like we're already planning for the eventual departure of Demarcus

Again, why don't you wait until, oh, I don't know, maybe a couple months so we see what trades and FA and the summer league bring? Everyone is wrapped up in how the roster looks the day after the draft instead of realizing this is just the first 8 moves of a chess game. We have a long way to go and a lot of options being considered.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Again, why don't you wait until, oh, I don't know, maybe a couple months so we see what trades and FA and the summer league bring? Everyone is wrapped up in how the roster looks the day after the draft instead of realizing this is just the first 8 moves of a chess game. We have a long way to go and a lot of options being considered.

yup too early. we haven't even hit free agency yet. we really need to get it right this time around. since we have a GM and coach on the same page.. i think we will finally reach some balance and stability going forward.

 

[Bricklayer]

yup too early. we haven't even hit free agency yet. we really need to get it right this time around. since we have a GM and coach on the same page.. i think we will finally reach some balance and stability going forward.

 

[gunks]

Gross, Brick......

 

[Telemachus]

I don't see the Gasol comparison. Gasol is an elite passer and a former defensive player of the year. Big George is a project and has a high potential to bust.

When Gasol was drafted, he was a lumbering overweight player with some skills who looked like he would never be better than a backup center. After his rookie year he lost a lot of weight and proved to be much better than expected. He also was 24 his rookie year.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

i liked mikki, he wasn't used properly in the offense. we should have had posted him more. theuss must've taken a page out of cal's book and hid his 3 point shot from the public's eye.

 

[Glenn]

Again, why don't you wait until, oh, I don't know, maybe a couple months so we see what trades and FA and the summer league bring? Everyone is wrapped up in how the roster looks the day after the draft instead of realizing this is just the first 8 moves of a chess game. We have a long way to go and a lot of options being considered.

This is exactly the attitude of last year.

This idea that the draft could be a "win now" draft are ignoring the fact that there were no players available that matched that job description past pick #7.

 

[ockingsfan]

Vlade said that they knew he wouldn't last past the 18th pick.

We have to remember that our assistant GM Ken Cantenella was the assistant GM in Detroit just 1 month ago. He probably had good insider knowledge of who Detroit liked and he probably knew Detroit was going to take Papa at #18.

Therefore, Vlade jumped Detroit and took Big Papa at #13.

 

[peacelate]

We have to remember that our assistant GM Ken Cantenella was the assistant GM in Detroit just 1 month ago. He probably had good insider knowledge of who Detroit liked and he probably knew Detroit was going to take Papa at #18.

Therefore, Vlade jumped Detroit and took Big Papa at #13.

Good point. If you really, really like a guy, the risk is too much to move back if there is insider knowledge that another team likes the same guy.

 

[funkykingston]

We have to remember that our assistant GM Ken Cantenella was the assistant GM in Detroit just 1 month ago. He probably had good insider knowledge of who Detroit liked and he probably knew Detroit was going to take Papa at #18.

Therefore, Vlade jumped Detroit and took Big Papa at #13.

Possibly, but I wonder/doubt if Detroit had him regarded that highly back when Catanella left the organization. Word was that Papagiannis just started his workouts in front of NBA teams a couple weeks ago. It's possible Detroit had scouted him enough to like him a lot but they wouldn't have had their draft board started, let alone set that many weeks ago.

It's also been suggested that Vlade called Detroit about trading back it slipped out who they wanted to draft. But that makes little sense. It would be an obvious smoke screen not to be trusted. And it also doesn't makes sense if Detroit was looking to move up. Why would they say that they planned to take Papagiannis at 18 if they were negotiating to get to 13?

I'm not sure how the Kings knew that Papagiannis might not make it to 18. But there is SO much chatter on draft day and conversations with other organizations that it would be hard to pin down.

I think Papagiannis was going to go in the first round though. Based on rumors of interest by Detroit, Boston & Philly it sure seems that way, though it sounds like most of them would have preferred he stay in Greece another year.

Vlade wanted to move back and get his guy and that opportunity wasn't there so he probably drafted him higher than necessary (unless the Celtics planned to take him at 16) but in the end all that matters is whether he becomes a good player or not. Draymond Green and Nikola Jokic should have been lottery picks regardless of where draft experts had them slotted or what the draft "grades" the day after would have said. If Papagiannis even becomes an NBA starter he'd be better than more two thirds of all first round picks so we just have to hope Vlade is right about this kid.

 

[Gilles]

When Gasol was drafted, he was a lumbering overweight player with some skills who looked like he would never be better than a backup center. After his rookie year he lost a lot of weight and proved to be much better than expected. He also was 24 his rookie year.

Everyone is clinging to that photo of 17-y.o. Marc. When he was drafted in 2007 he was pretty much at his current level of fitness, and kicking ass in ACB, which pre-crisis was a very strong and deep league.
Good thing, Papagiannis is not 22 though, and he will have top-level trainers at his disposal. If the willingness is there, he'll get in top shape.

 

[biltalent]

Another team that could have been high on Papagiannis is Bosten. They drafted Yabusele at #16 but I really don't think that was their first option there.

If you want to catch film on Papagiannis, all games of the Greece national teams U19 from last years FIBA are on Youtube. For example here against the US:

 

[KingsFan80]

You don't have enough knowledge or access to information to draw this conclusion and to think you can is naive. Teams that win in the 30s need to get the best and most impactful players and figure out the rest afterwards. The Kings are not in a position to draft for need, and needs can be addressed with trades (Koufos, Gay) and free agent signings.

Back in the day, like 4-5 years ago, these players used to make the rounds, we'd get workout videos as they'd make their stops, and more assessments from the involved parties. Back then I used to get more into analysis and projection because there was more to base opinions off. We don't get that anymore and accordingly there is just not enough data to form solid opinions.

I liked Emmanuel Mudiay last year. But one thing I could not ascertain that became an issue as a rookie is that he did NOT have blow-by speed on the perimeter. That's a problem projecting stardom. If a guard has an iffy shot he BETTER have breakdown ability to get to the rim. Mudiay has great size and good handles and solid fundamentals, but his quickness AND perimeter jumper are MIA (missing action). This is difficult to determine based off a few highlight clips.

This brings me to Wade Baldwin. Great size, great length, but difficult to gauge speed and quickness and turning corner. Since we decided to pass on this guy, I think it could be related to that lack of burst of speed....and AGAIN this is really difficult to determine just watching highlight videos (steal rate is a good forecast of speed and anticipation, and I know the scouts like to look at this, so this can be helpful to quantify speed). Anyway I think we have to defer to the guys who see them up close.

In Vlade I trust.

P.S. And we didn't screw up last years draft.
P.P.S. And trading Marco the Brick-o for a 1st rounder and who was due 2 years and $13M was the exact opposite of a screw-up!!!

You don't have enough knowledge or access to information to draw this conclusion and to think you can is naive. Teams that win in the 30s need to get the best and most impactful players and figure out the rest afterwards. The Kings are not in a position to draft for need, and needs can be addressed with trades (Koufos, Gay) and free agent signings.

Back in the day, like 4-5 years ago, these players used to make the rounds, we'd get workout videos as they'd make their stops, and more assessments from the involved parties. Back then I used to get more into analysis and projection because there was more to base opinions off. We don't get that anymore and accordingly there is just not enough data to form solid opinions.

I liked Emmanuel Mudiay last year. But one thing I could not ascertain that became an issue as a rookie is that he did NOT have blow-by speed on the perimeter. That's a problem projecting stardom. If a guard has an iffy shot he BETTER have breakdown ability to get to the rim. Mudiay has great size and good handles and solid fundamentals, but his quickness AND perimeter jumper are MIA (missing action). This is difficult to determine based off a few highlight clips.

This brings me to Wade Baldwin. Great size, great length, but difficult to gauge speed and quickness and turning corner. Since we decided to pass on this guy, I think it could be related to that lack of burst of speed....and AGAIN this is really difficult to determine just watching highlight videos (steal rate is a good forecast of speed and anticipation, and I know the scouts like to look at this, so this can be helpful to quantify speed). Anyway I think we have to defer to the guys who see them up close.

In Vlade I trust.

P.S. And we didn't screw up last years draft.
P.P.S. And trading Marco the Brick-o for a 1st rounder and who was due 2 years and $13M was the exact opposite of a screw-up!!!

So you have enough knowledge to say this project C is going to be good? I think it is a terrible pick. Sounds like you will support Vlade for everything as he walks on water so there is no point for me to debate this. AND even though WCS has seemed to work out, we should have taken Mudiay as he will be an NBA all-star within 3-4 years

 

[dude12]

So you have enough knowledge to say this project C is going to be good? I think it is a terrible pick. Sounds like you will support Vlade for everything as he walks on water so there is no point for me to debate this. AND even though WCS has seemed to work out, we should have taken Mudiay as he will be an NBA all-star within 3-4 years

Mudiay is a turnover machine and will not be an all-star in 3-4 years.

 

[upinsmoke]

So you have enough knowledge to say this project C is going to be good? I think it is a terrible pick. Sounds like you will support Vlade for everything as he walks on water so there is no point for me to debate this. AND even though WCS has seemed to work out, we should have taken Mudiay as he will be an NBA all-star within 3-4 years

Whoa. That's a heck of a statement. You may be right or wrong who knows but to say western conference all star guard the bar starts at D. Lillard.

 

[funkykingston]

Mudiay is a turnover machine and will not be an all-star in 3-4 years.

I love Mudiay's size and his passing ability. And his turnovers don't really bother me - it's typical of rookie PGs. But his shooting woes and especially his lack of burst are big limitations right now.

 

[jcwkings]

I don't know much about Papagiannis but objectively speaking being an 18 year old rotation player on a team like Panathanikos is impressive. Especially considering Euro teams at that level are more about playing veterans than developing kids. His level of competition at the Euroleague specifically is > College basketball. I can see the arguement of picking up five players with upside in the draft for a team that will be down a couple of picks in the next 4-5 years.

 

[Gilles]

Just a note: in Greek Finals (in Greece you have 4 months of basketball, and then the only thing, that matters, starts as Olympiacos and Panatinaikos are 2 heads above everyone else, though this year Aris was trying to upset the order, led by Okaro White, potential 3&D forward, I mentioned some time ago) Panatinaikos was searching for some big man production off the bench, and in the last two games of the series Papagiannis took all the minutes available, so he definitely has some ability to play right now.

 

[IfAt1st]

AND even though WCS has seemed to work out, we should have taken Mudiay as he will be an NBA all-star within 3-4 years

I would be willing to bet that Mudiay will never be an All-Star in the NBA.

 

[BeerNerd916]

If you go by eye test and not advanced analytics... the film on Papa John and Malachi is great. I love the way Malachi looks on film... maybe he's really good??

I have a feeling that Vlade isn't a stats nerd... but more of a gut feel guy.

Last stats nerd in our neckuvdawoods was Das Gerbil...

 

[KingsFan80]

Whoa. That's a heck of a statement. You may be right or wrong who knows but to say western conference all star guard the bar starts at D. Lillard.

In terms of potential, Mudiay is better than WCS. age 19 vs 22 is a big deal in the NBA

 

[dude12]

In terms of potential, Mudiay is better than WCS. age 19 vs 22 is a big deal in the NBA

Then you should be happy we took the 18-19 year old Papa kid....right? Lol.

 

[Livinthedream]

For those who were able to catch it, during rookie press conference, Joerger described Skal as a stretch 4. That is not insignificant. If we're not asking him to put on weight and bang down low, that's less that needs to be developed. It's also not a redundant position on this team.

 

[ESP47]

In terms of potential, Mudiay is better than WCS. age 19 vs 22 is a big deal in the NBA

I agree with you there. It's just the odds of Mudiay reaching that potential seems pretty low to me. Unless WCS develops a sick offensive game, I don't see him being a game changer the way Mudiay could be. Right now the difference is that we pretty much know that WCS is going to have a place in this league for a long time. Mudiay may not unless he improves quite a bit.

I get taking the chances on the first rounders, I just don't like the positions they play being so redundant.

 

[ESP47]

For those who were able to catch it, during rookie press conference, Joerger described Skal as a stretch 4. That is not insignificant. If we're not asking him to put on weight and bang down low, that's less that needs to be developed. It's also not a redundant position on this team.

From looking at his shot, stretch 4 seems like it's in the cards for him. Unfortunately unless he toughens up a bit, I see him as more of a Channing Frye type than anything else. You have to be able to rebound at the 4. Can't rely on Cousins for everything.