KMart ... A Surprising Stat

[1kingzfan]

Kevin takes a hit from many for not "filling up the stat sheet". He had a great year in 07-08, finishing highly ranked in the NBA in the following categories:

Scoring - 6th
3PFG% - 29th
FT% - 12th
FT/Game - 1st
FTA/Game - 5th
PER - 20th (Player Efficiency Rating)

Surprisingly, at least for me, Kevin finished amongst the NBA leaders in rebounding for guards (ie, all guards, both PG and SG):

Total RPG - 14th
Defensive RPG - 8th

In the latter rebounding category, Kevin was only topped by whom you would expect - Kidd, Bryant, McGrady, Carter, Ginobili - plus Mike Miller and Jason Richardson.

When you consider there are 60 starting guards in the league and many others that play significant minutes off the bench at the 1 and 2, I thought that this performance was a nice showing and noteworthy, since most probably did not realize it.

 

[PacMan]

Kevin takes a hit from many for not "filling up the stat sheet". He had a great year in 07-08, finishing highly ranked in the NBA in the following categories:

Scoring - 6th
3PFG% - 29th
FT% - 12th
FT/Game - 1st
FTA/Game - 5th
PER - 20th (Player Efficiency Rating)

Surprisingly, at least for me, Kevin finished amongst the NBA leaders in rebounding for guards (ie, all guards, both PG and SG):

Total RPG - 14th
Defensive RPG - 8th

In the latter rebounding category, Kevin was only topped by whom you would expect - Kidd, Bryant, McGrady, Carter, Ginobili - plus Mike Miller and Jason Richardson.

When you consider there are 60 starting guards in the league and many others that play significant minutes off the bench at the 1 and 2, I thought that this performance was a nice showing and noteworthy, since most probably did not realize it.

Well these stats are somewhat misleading since Kevin Martin plays alot of minute. If you check the rebound per 48 minutes, he rank 44th among all guards

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

Well these stats are somewhat misleading since Kevin Martin plays alot of minute. If you check the rebound per 48 minutes, he rank 44th among all guards

Indeed.

 

[VF21]

Amazing how quickly some have to find a way to downplay the performance of the 2-guard many thought would be a total bust.

Thanks for the stats, 1kingzfan. It doesn't surprise me, however, that it's already turning into the never-ending debate about per 48. And I still think that's a misleading statistic in many instances.

Regardless of what base you use, I think Kevin deserves credit for continuing to improve his game.

 

[Jerryaki]

29th in 3pt%? for some reason i thought he'd be higher. oh well, keep it up, kevin!

 

[PacMan]

Amazing how quickly some have to find a way to downplay the performance of the 2-guard many thought would be a total bust.

Thanks for the stats, 1kingzfan. It doesn't surprise me, however, that it's already turning into the never-ending debate about per 48. And I still think that's a misleading statistic in many instances.

Regardless of what base you use, I think Kevin deserves credit for continuing to improve his game.

I'm not trying to downplay anything but rather give some counter arguement since this is a discussion is it not? Or do i have to praise at the feet of kevin martin in every thread.

 

[1kingzfan]

29th in 3pt%? for some reason i thought he'd be higher. oh well, keep it up, kevin!

Well, not one of the tippy-top performances for sure, but I like to think of the 40% mark as the one that separates the very good shooters from the rest, and Kevin squeezed in there at 40.2%.

Well these stats are somewhat misleading since Kevin Martin plays alot of minute. If you check the rebound per 48 minutes, he rank 44th among all guards

First off, I was not trying to start an "All Hail, Kevin" thread. I just happened to be diddling around looking at stats this morning, I am a KMart fan, and came across the rebounding thing which surprised me.

Secondly, the "per 48" thing has been run through the washer here, and it has its good points and bad points. Everyone has their subjective view about why "per 48" is either telling or misleading. So I will leave it at that so as to not restart that debate in this thread.

What is a fact, though, is that of the leading defensive rebounders in 07-08 at the guard slot, the top 6 averaged more minutes per game than Kevin, and 8 of the top 11 averaged more minutes per game than Kevin.

 

[VF21]

I'm not trying to downplay anything but rather give some counter arguement since this is a discussion is it not? Or do i have to praise at the feet of kevin martin in every thread.

A lot of people have been ubercritical of Martin at every point. Now that he has vastly exceeded the expectations of many, I thought it might actually result in people recognizing that. Instead, the first response to a pretty clear-cut post was one that IMHO did, in fact, downplay his accomplishments.

Do you have to praise at the feet of Kevin martin in every thread? Yeah, that's what this forum is all about.

There has always been spirited discussion about Kevin and there will most likely continue to be. As far as I can recall, no one has been forced to praise him.

The point of this whole thing should be that a young player for whom many had very little expectations is, as I've said, continuing to grow and develop into a much better player than was predicted by all but a few.

Look at those stats again. Those are pretty impressive - especially for a young player who was drafted late in the first round and was pretty much an unknown.

What exactly is a "counter arguement (sic)" to that? I find it strange that Kings fans don't want to celebrate the improvement of a Kings player and, instead, seem hell-bent on finding ways to "downplay" his accomplishments.

Discussion and debate is one thing but it almost seems as though some (and I'm speaking in general terms here) feel a sense of obligation to refute any positive comment that is made about him.

It is honestly very puzzling to me...

 

[1kingzfan]

It is honestly very puzzling to me...

My opinion is that many good Kings fans, although they mostly generally like what they have seen, still just cannot believe what they are seeing with Kevin's progression.

I think those that are critical also don't care for:

* the way Kevin gets his points (different in many ways from Lebron and Kobe, lots of trips to the line due to his explosive speed and no current post-up game)

* how Kevin is not a vocal leader on the floor (with his mouth yapping or arms waving constantly at teammates, refs, and everyone else)

* his slender physique (and that he has not taken steroids like Kobe and LeBron)

It's the St. Thomas Syndrome.

I just prefer to accept him for what he is and what he still can rise up further to be, and it's been fun watching him to do just that.

What is his ceiling? Has Kevin reached it, or is there more room to grow? I feel that it is the latter, and hopefully he will be working on bolstering up those areas where he can improve this summer.

 

[Vlade4GM]

All he did was call out that the high rebounding ranking was due to the minutes Martin played, which is a good point and showing per48 numbers helped back his point. If you have a problem with the argument he made, go after the argument; don't pigeonhole him into some kind of kmart hater just because he didn't break out the pom poms and praise kmart's success. It doesn't mean he doesn't want to celebrate, only that he cared about the stats not misleading people. I guess it's okay for stats to be misleading (intentionally or not) as long as it in the favor of praising a kings player . Why are you getting all bent out of shape over SG's rebounding stats anyways?

 

[PacMan]

A lot of people have been ubercritical of Martin at every point. Now that he has vastly exceeded the expectations of many, I thought it might actually result in people recognizing that. Instead, the first response to a pretty clear-cut post was one that IMHO did, in fact, downplay his accomplishments.

Do you have to praise at the feet of Kevin martin in every thread? Yeah, that's what this forum is all about.

There has always been spirited discussion about Kevin and there will most likely continue to be. As far as I can recall, no one has been forced to praise him.

The point of this whole thing should be that a young player for whom many had very little expectations is, as I've said, continuing to grow and develop into a much better player than was predicted by all but a few.

Look at those stats again. Those are pretty impressive - especially for a young player who was drafted late in the first round and was pretty much an unknown.

What exactly is a "counter arguement (sic)" to that? I find it strange that Kings fans don't want to celebrate the improvement of a Kings player and, instead, seem hell-bent on finding ways to "downplay" his accomplishments.

Discussion and debate is one thing but it almost seems as though some (and I'm speaking in general terms here) feel a sense of obligation to refute any positive comment that is made about him.

It is honestly very puzzling to me...

First off, I'm a kevin martin's fan. I like the way he plays and I do admire his ability to score. When it comes to rebounding, I dont think he's a terrible rebounder or a great rebounder at the 2 guard spot and that's okay because he makes up in other area like scoring. My first response was merely to point out what i think those stats are saying to me. Kevin Martin plays 36 minutes a game: that is alot of minutes to get those rebounds. The stats on the scoring? Yea those are great and I admit that he's a great score. What's hilarious is how big of a homer you are that you have to attack every single post that point out something that Kevin Martin is not great at. How do you want people to respond to this thread? ALL HAIL Kevin Martin for one more rebound?

 

[1kingzfan]

All he did was call out that the high rebounding ranking was due to the minutes Martin played, which is a good point and showing per48 numbers helped back his point....It doesn't mean he doesn't want to celebrate, only that he cared about the stats not misleading people.

The stat is not misleading in any way, just like any other statistical category leader's stats are not misleading in points per game, assists per game, or steals per game.

So, while we're at it, let's heap some praise on the following points per 48 league leaders in 2008:

Ian Mahinmi Spurs 44.7 PP48
Jerome James Knicks 42.0 PP48
Stephen Graham Pacers 32.7 PP48

 

[Vlade4GM]

The stat is not misleading in any way, just like any other statistical category leader's stats are not misleading in points per game, assists per game, or steals per game.

So, while we're at it, let's heap some praise on the following points per 48 league leaders in 2008:

Ian Mahinmi Spurs 44.7 PP48
Jerome James Knicks 42.0 PP48
Stephen Graham Pacers 32.7 PP48

That's a gross exaggeration of the stat, not trying to say per48 is some great statistic but at least it adds some perspective that per game stats lack when you're considering differences between players that put in significant minutes.

Still, my main point was that it was a valid counterpoint yet vf21 jumped on him because it wasn't in the spirit of praising Martin. All I really wanted was for you guys to go after the argument, not the poster.

 

[Spike]

Since I wasn't a part of the big per48 discussion, I don't want to reopen it. In this instance, I think the OP made a pretty good observation based on the data given. The per48 seems like it would be more useful for showing potential/maximum value for players who are given limited minutes. I think its efficacy is lessened for players who play a greater amount of minutes.

That being said, I think it is neat to see that Martin is working towards improving other aspects of his game, not just focusing on scoring...

 

[Bricklayer]

The per 48 is determinative -- as always. Normally attemtps to dodge per48 are ntohing more or less than attempts to pump up a favorite player. As here of course.

But the per48s are respectable here -- Kevin finshed 32nd among 88 offguards. Not all guards, as again that is normally nothing less than an attempt to pump up a guy to use "all guards" as the standard, when the other guards are 6'0" PGs. Might as well go the other way and use "all swingmen" as the standard in an attempt to discredit Kevin because he doesn't rebound as well as a SF. Neither is particularly illuminative.

But amongst his peers, amongst the OGs, he was right about the 37% mark or so. (As in Top 40%). Not a special impact type rebounder to be sure, but a solid one as an OG. He is very much in the main pack of guys though. Kevin at #32 is 5.9/per 48, the #50 guy is 5.4/per 48, the #20 guy (our own John Salmons) at 6.7/per 48. Kevin's 5.9 per 48 this season is identical to what it was last year (5.9/per 48 again), and actually down for what it was 2 years ago when he first started getting minutes (6.5/ per 48) so not sure what the surprise is here. At least on our frontcourtless non-rebounding team of weenies, Kevin is an above average off guard rebounder. We have had to stress team rebounding and little guys getting back to the glass to attempt to cover for our bigs not taking care of business.

 

[1kingzfan]

The per 48 is determinative -- as always. Normally attemtps to dodge per48 are ntohing more or less than attempts to pump up a favorite player. As here of course.

Disagree. Per 48 does not work for translating 5, 10, 15, or 20 minute per game performances to the duration of a game. Many more variables at play as minutes go up, including conditioning, sustaining a performance with changing line-ups, and who you are playing against as minutes increase. Same old arguments.

Again, to clarify, my post was not an attempt to pump up Kevin, although I don't hide the fact that I am a fan of his. When I stumbled upon the rebounding stats for guards, I was surprised and thought that most here would not have known about them either, so I shared.

I did not say that Kevin was God's gift to rebounding guards. All I said was that it was interesting and noteworthy that in defensive rebounding, Kevin was right behind those physical and active rebounding guards that you would expect to be there. Considering also that Kevin often likes to leak out on the break, his finish in the defensive RPG stats amongst guards is notable.

4.5 overall RPG does not seem to be a stat sheet filler, but when placed in perspective with the peer group of starting guards in the NBA, it's not bad.

 

[CruzDude]

My opinion is that many good Kings fans, although they mostly generally like what they have seen, still just cannot believe what they are seeing with Kevin's progression.

I think those that are critical also don't care for:

* the way Kevin gets his points (different in many ways from Lebron and Kobe, lots of trips to the line due to his explosive speed and no current post-up game)

* how Kevin is not a vocal leader on the floor (with his mouth yapping or arms waving constantly at teammates, refs, and everyone else)

* his slender physique (and that he has not taken steroids like Kobe and LeBron)

It's the St. Thomas Syndrome.

I just prefer to accept him for what he is and what he still can rise up further to be, and it's been fun watching him to do just that.

What is his ceiling? Has Kevin reached it, or is there more room to grow? I feel that it is the latter, and hopefully he will be working on bolstering up those areas where he can improve this summer.

YEP!! couldn't agree more. Our Kevin goes about his 20-30 pts a night in a very quiet fashion, which a lot of fans, Kings fans not basketball fans, don't seem to give him credit for. Points are points and to be 6th out of 60 guards or 30 SG says he is in the very top echelon of SG's along with good rebounding. Facts are facts fans and KM is our star. RonRon can be our 2nd star IF he will play a team role as most others do.

 

[Wuster]

Early in Kevin's career, I was decidedly down on him. I honestly did not think he was NBA caliber or had the potential. No matter how you break down his stats, I think he is proving to be not only NBA caliber, but certainly one of the better players at his position in the league.

 

[joemama]

I thought most impressive stat

Kmart was the only player in NBA history to average 9 freethrow makes and shoot over 40% from downtown.....

And if you bring that 9 and 40 to 8 and 40 it would include only two players Kevin Martin and Micheal Jordan.

 

[Kingzrool]

Among guards only, Kevin placed 3rd in PPG behind only Kobe and AI. (If you go with per 48, he is 2nd). He also had the highest FT% of the top ten in that category. He was 1st in free throws made and 2nd in FT attempts among guards and 1st in free throws made and 5th in FT attempts overall.

This guy is on the Kings for years to come.

(Kingzrool is doing the happy dance)

 

[Amanjoy]

Early in Kevin's career, I was decidedly down on him. I honestly did not think he was NBA caliber or had the potential. No matter how you break down his stats, I think he is proving to be not only NBA caliber, but certainly one of the better players at his position in the league.

I know the comparison has been made before, but watching Rip Hamilton get 30 a night for Detroit despite shooting 7 for 20 reminds me a lot of how KMart does his thing. They both are slashers that benefit from a lot of movement without the ball. If the 2007-08 version of K-Mart had played with the 2001 version of CWebb, he would've been an all-star like Peja was!

 

[Aenadin]

what do you think of his defense though i dont doubt him on the offensive side but did his defense improve from last year ?

i hope he works on defense this off season as well as using his length more
he should have loads of Defensive prowess now he played alongside Doug Christie (short term) and now with Ron Artest...

if artest trains garcia and martin on defense they would be a scary back court

 

[JB_kings]

what do you think of his defense though i dont doubt him on the offensive side but did his defense improve from last year ?

i hope he works on defense this off season as well as using his length more
he should have loads of Defensive prowess now he played alongside Doug Christie (short term) and now with Ron Artest...

if artest trains garcia and martin on defense they would be a scary back court

Kevin is just outstanding on offense. I don't really know if you can ask more of him there numbers wise. But you can ask more of him on defense.