Kings waiving papa morphed into Vlade sucks

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#61
You're asking the wrong question. Bogdan and Skal looking like good pick-ups don't make us wasting #13 and #22 acceptable. You can't say "Well, we got two good picks from that trade, who cares what happens with Papa and Malachi?"
During the draft night, he made some mistakes, and made some good moves, and obviously (to me) got ahead overall from what I see.
So lets fire him for getting more from what he started with?
The only way he can be overall criticized for draft 2016 is if keeping the #8 pick would be better, hence my question.

For contrast, changing strategy by trading Cuz for peanuts (which made Philly trade terrible) shows lack of strategic judgement which can be fireable offense.
Drafting in 2016 is not.
 
#63
I'm fine with this. I didn't think Vlade had the ego to admit that he made a mistake on Papagiannis.

I said this last year. If Papa wasn't a 1st round pick, he wouldn't even have made the team.
 
#64
That wasn't the trade. You could have Valentine, Murray, Bogdan and Skal. It's not one or the other.
It is.
You would have only pick #8 if Vlade did nothing.

Comparing the best possible outcome with hindsight 20-20 is not a fair comparison particularly ignoring that the same guy created that opportunity.

Total work for the night:
You go to 2016 draft with pick #8.
You get out of draft with Papa, Skal and Bogdan.
Result is: you won

Or:
You bought BitCoin for $1000
You sold it today for $8000
Lets fire you because you did not sell it for $19,000?
 
#65
It is.
You would have only pick #8 if Vlade did nothing.

Comparing the best possible outcome with hindsight 20-20 is not a fair comparison particularly ignoring that the same guy created that opportunity.

Total work for the night:
You go to 2016 draft with pick #8.
You get out of draft with Papa, Skal and Bogdan.
Result is: you won

Or:
You bought BitCoin for $1000
You sold it today for $8000
Lets fire you because you did not sell it for $19,000?
You're not getting it. Yes, we all get this was a win trade for us with Bogdan and Skal looking solid. That does NOT excuse the fact that we wasted a #13 lottery pick that we gave up on a year and a half later.

We won the trade with PHX (still probably early to call this, but comfortable with Bogdan/Skal over Chriss)
Vlade completely and utterly wasted a #13 pick and #22 pick as evidenced of us giving up on them a year and a half later.

Both things can be (and are) true.
 
#66
I have no clue why anyone would trust Vlade's scouting ability. Drafting Papagiannis at 13th overall in the lotto was ****ing headscratching. No one on draft boards had him that high. He didn't even earn an invite to the green room. He should've never been a lotto pick, nevertheless a 1st round pick. Malachi? He had 1 good run in March, and that was it. I'll be completely honest, I didn't like either player before the draft. I didn't even care to look at Papagiannis. With Malachi, I saw him as an inefficient chucker in college.

How concerning is it that a random Kings fan has more eye for talent than a professional paid GM? Vlade is a bottom 3 GM in the NBA, arguably worst.

I'm glad he's admitted his mistake, but we seriously need someone a lot more qualified than him.

edit: and oh yea, don't forget that we could've picked someone who could've came in and immediately contributed with Cousins in our playoff push, but nope. let's draft a no-named 7ft C to pee off Cousins on twitter.
 
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#67
You're not getting it. Yes, we all get this was a win trade for us with Bogdan and Skal looking solid. That does NOT excuse the fact that we wasted a #13 lottery pick that we gave up on a year and a half later.

We won the trade with PHX (still probably early to call this, but comfortable with Bogdan/Skal over Chriss)
Vlade completely and utterly wasted a #13 pick and #22 pick as evidenced of us giving up on them a year and a half later.

Both things can be (and are) true.
"utter failure" was the description you used.
If somebody does utter failure, that person is incompetent and if true, should be fired. That is how it sounds to me and that is what I reacted to.

If you were just saying that those were just mistakes and you agree that overall in 2016 draft his good moves made us better despite the mistakes he made, we are on the same page.
 
#69
"utter failure" was the description you used.
If somebody does utter failure, that person is incompetent and if true, should be fired. That is how it sounds to me and that is what I reacted to.

If you were just saying that those were just mistakes and you agree that overall in 2016 draft his good moves made us better despite the mistakes he made, we are on the same page.
Well, yeah Vlade has been an utter failure for the most part as GM. Again, two things can be true:

The 2016 draft trade was probably his best move as a GM
He's made head-scratching move after head-scratching move that's hampered us for years. And we haven't even felt the full force of it yet, depending on where our UNPROTECTED pick ends up next season.

I wonder if he wasn't a Kings Hero if he would still have a job.

As far as actually evaulating the draft, it's still too early to really tell, but there have been plenty of guys who have shown some promise drafted after 13:

Denzel Valentine (who I wanted)
Dejounte Murray
Juan Hernangomez
Malik Beasley
Caris Levert
Timothe Luwawu
Pascal Siakim
Deyonta Davis
Malcolm Brogdon

All of whom have a good shot at sticking as rotation players at the very least with a couple good starters thrown in there.
 
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#70
This team won't be successful and go no where until Vivek fires Vlade and hires a true (experianced or up and coming) GM with 100% control. Vlade is a legend (player) but at this point his list of good moves is tiny while the list of failures keeps growing. There was no point in signing G. Hill ZBO or Carter. Almost all of his draft picks, trades and free agent moves have been busts. The Papa pick was espcially bad as many knew it was silly to take a project center that high in a perimeter league.
 
#71
I'd rather take a flyer on Caboclo than Papagiannis but I don't like the asset management from Vlade.

Caboclo is an interesting SF/PF prospect who is still only 22 years old and has a 7'7" wingspan. I wouldn't be afraid to give him a 2 year, $4-6 mil deal with the 2nd year being a team option to really see if this guy with such a unique physical profile can become a player in the league.

He can literally almost touch the rim standing and is a superb asset for his size. His shot is decent and looks like he has good form (34% from 3 and 83% from the line). And again, the guy is only 22. Cauley-Stein & Hield are both two years older than him. If we give him another two years to develop on a $2-3 mil/year deal, we could end up having a steal in a couple years. Low risk, high reward.
 
#72
I don't think anyone would dispute trading that #8 pick was a smart move, but the problem with the Papa pick is that it made no sense at the time, and progressively less as time passes. Ok, if the Kings had picked a raw athletic freak who didn't pen out, so be it. If they had picked a skilled unathletic guy, fine. The point is, sometimes you roll the dice and win, and sometimes you lose. But this pick.... it makes no sense - they picked someone who is both raw and slow. For a while, the only rationale a fan can muster is that Vlade must know someting we don't - Papa must have some ingredients that made him worthy of that pick, even if it isn't visible yet.

Which means the justification for that pick is Vlade saw something special in Papa. It's an acceptable reason - as a GM you have to go with your gut sometimes, and if you are wrong so be it. I'd have applauded Vlade for rolling the dice even if it turns out he is wrong, assuming he truly believed in Papa.

But what is not acceptable is picking a raw, slow, unathletic kid that he didn't truly believes in. That is just a rehash of the Thomas Robinson pick. And the release of Papa (if indeed it is happening) exposes it. You can't tell me that playing 7 minutes a game is enough to convince a GM to give up on a player he considers special. If Vlade had picked Zhou Qi, and if Qi busts out of the league; I'd still be fine with that - he lost the gamble, fine. But Papa isn't a gamble pick, it's not a safe pick, it's not even a reasonable pick (seeing that few had him in the first round), it's just a wasted pick.
.
 
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VF21

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#73
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OK, so this intrigues me a bit more. If we're betting on a long-shot, give me the guy who actually can fit in a role in today's NBA unlike Papa. And you got 4 years of pro basketball/development under his belt. Still atrocious asset management, but Bruno is the better "Long-shot and pray" player than Papa
I disagree. I think Vlade has spent a lot of time assessing the value and potential of our young squad. He's seen the good and I think he's also decided what players simply will not be part of the plan going forward. It doesn't matter where Papa was drafted. That's a sunk cost. It matters that Vlade dumped the two players that I, quite frankly, had little interest in. Papa just didn't seem to get it and Malachi couldn't find a way to stay on the court.

Those of you who keep saying Vlade is doing a crappy job do so and yet also seem to be in favor of what players we got rid of today and what it garnered us in cap space.

If we get the group that we need, I don't care how we got them. We got Bogs, and to me that was the important part of that deal anyway. We got Fox. We got Hield, who although he drives me nuts still looks like a potential excellent 6th man. We got Jackson, who seems to be maturing before our eyes. Skal? Still a question but at least has potential. WCS? A lot better, I think, than some here give him credit for. We've got Mason, who is another good pick and we've got Giles, who could end up being the best of all. All in all, I think Vlade has done about as well as could have been expected...and we're not carrying a bunch of dead wood around. We'll have some really good expiring contracts next season as well.
 
#74
Nope, this is just an excuse. You had a 13th pick and a 22nd pick and they're gone a year and a half later for nothing. No matter how weak the class is, it's an utter failure of the organization and an utter waste of two assets.
So here is a link to that draft--> https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2016.html

Who else in the first round after #11 would you have picked?

By the way, I quoted "The Jamal" but I am calling everyone out to answer this:cool:
 
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#76
So here is a link to that draft--> https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2016.html

Who else in the first round after #11 would you have picked?

By the way, I quoted "The Jamal" but I am calling everyone out to answer this:cool:
Honestly, I liked Wade Baldwin and Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot with DeJounte Murray being the one I was highest on. A lot of us liked Baldwin and he left the league faster than Papa. But Murray at 22 still would have been my pick over Richardson.

I was furious with the Papagiannis pick and upset about Malachi and Skal. Richardson and Labissiere were two of my least favorite prospects that year. Skal may prove me wrong and Malachi showed signs of being more than a chucker. But we were all right to be mad about Georgios at 13
 
#79
I'd rather have Jakkar Sampson signed to a full contract than Papa G. Papa G and Malachi were bad picks but acknowledging it and recognizing when to fold is also important. I honestly don't know who else from that draft we should/would have taken. From what I remember Wade Baldwin and Denzel Valentine were guys being discussed. Wade Baldwin is out of the league and Denzel Valentine looks like he will be a decent rotation guy, not like we missed on even a solid started level player.
 
#80
I can't believe anyone would want Papa over Bruno. Papa has no chance at becoming anything more than a Kosta Koufous. Bruno is already better than Papa and he's a project player.

I know it hurts to think we are realizing the #13 pick from 2016 but be reasonable. The mistake was made and now we are moving on.
 
#81
I can't believe anyone would want Papa over Bruno. Papa has no chance at becoming anything more than a Kosta Koufous. Bruno is already better than Papa and he's a project player.

I know it hurts to think we are realizing the #13 pick from 2016 but be reasonable. The mistake was made and now we are moving on.
People make it sound as if Kosta is a bad player. Newsflash he is not!

He is one of the best back up big men in the league who knows his role, plays it very well and does not step out of what his role is. Kosta actually started on a 57 win team. You don't do that unless you are a good player.

My hope all along was that Papa develops into a Kosta Kufous type. That would have been a pretty solid outcome for the franchise froma pretty crap draft.
 
#82
People make it sound as if Kosta is a bad player. Newsflash he is not!

He is one of the best back up big men in the league who knows his role, plays it very well and does not step out of what his role is. Kosta actually started on a 57 win team. You don't do that unless you are a good player.

My hope all along was that Papa develops into a Kosta Kufous type. That would have been a pretty solid outcome for the franchise froma pretty crap draft.
I like Kosta don't get me wrong. I agree he's a great backup player, but he's pretty one dimensional for the modern NBA--and more importantly I think it's unlikely Papa can even be as good as him. That's basically Papa's ceiling in my eyes. I have absolutely no confidence in PapaG and am constantly puzzled why he gets so much love on this board.

Caboclo probably wont amount to anything either, but he's cheaper and more built for the modern NBA.
 
#83
While I have no problem with this aside from the obvious disappointment of actually "wasting" a pick (as others have said, there weren't many other guys we should have drafted instead), I am bothered by the faith that Vlade had in PapaG becoming not just a solid player, but a very good one. To take a risk on such a player, proclaim his potential and then cut him within 2 seasons is not a good indication on his ability to spot talent or fit in the modern NBA. On the flip side, maybe cutting him does reflect an improvement in said ability.
 
#84
I disagree. I think Vlade has spent a lot of time assessing the value and potential of our young squad. He's seen the good and I think he's also decided what players simply will not be part of the plan going forward. It doesn't matter where Papa was drafted. That's a sunk cost. It matters that Vlade dumped the two players that I, quite frankly, had little interest in. Papa just didn't seem to get it and Malachi couldn't find a way to stay on the court.

Those of you who keep saying Vlade is doing a crappy job do so and yet also seem to be in favor of what players we got rid of today and what it garnered us in cap space.

If we get the group that we need, I don't care how we got them. We got Bogs, and to me that was the important part of that deal anyway. We got Fox. We got Hield, who although he drives me nuts still looks like a potential excellent 6th man. We got Jackson, who seems to be maturing before our eyes. Skal? Still a question but at least has potential. WCS? A lot better, I think, than some here give him credit for. We've got Mason, who is another good pick and we've got Giles, who could end up being the best of all. All in all, I think Vlade has done about as well as could have been expected...and we're not carrying a bunch of dead wood around. We'll have some really good expiring contracts next season as well.
We basically used the trade deadline to undo the mistakes that were made with a lottery pick, 1st rounder and free agent signing. Basically we r where we were last year. Which means another year with no progress. We need to start moving forward at some point
 
#85
I'll tell you the final straw for Papa G. It was the game he played 3 minutes and got yanked. . He runs to the high post and Boggy throws him a simple chest pass and he wasn't even remotely ready for it. He flubbed it under no pressure. Joerger was disgusted yet unsurprised.

Papa G was out there going through the motions with no focus or no passion. That's inexcusable when you have accomplished nothing in the NBA.

Joerger's attitude was "well if you don't play then I won't play you". Can't argue with that!

Behind the scenes I think this was guy was not working hard enough and the Kings got sick of the apathy and self-entitlement and half-inspired work ethic. Yeah he dropped a few lbs but he needed to drop a lot more.

Look at a guy like Nikola Jokic or a guy like Marcin Gortat or even a guy like Koufos. These guys lean out to increase their mobility. They get down to 10% body fat. They are gym warriors who don't feed their face with fast food and carbs. They chow on salmon and sirloin not sloppy joes.

Fans are acting like the sky is falling over the moves today. I am not feeling that way at all. I don't want a guy with questionable work ethic on my team. Good riddens! When you are slow to begin with you need every edge you can get. Papa G needed to carry less weight to get from Point A to Point B. He wasn't quick enough off his feet. He wasn't quick enough to defend out on the perimeter. He had great size and soft hands. He was 2-3 inches taller than Boogie! And he bit of a touch.

But he was more mechanical than advertised. He needed to give 120% in the gym and with his diet not 80% effort. He needed to transform from the Pillsbury Doughboy faster and sooner. The progress was not there. He needed the eye of the tiger not two eyes on the cheeseburger.

Simultaneously the league changed since Papa G was drafted 2 years ago with more emphasis on versatile bigs who can step away. It was already changing when he was drafted and this change has only accelerated since then. Vlade did not anticipate this change.

Five years ago, 10 years ago Papa G had a place in the NBA as a banger in the paint. Bangers in the paint don't survive nowadays unless they can move with some agility and fluidity. Otherwise they will be consistently late and exposed in pick and rolls.

Would I have rather seen the Kings cut loose Vince Carter? Yeah, but I also don't believe in holding out false hope and living in denial. I defer to the Kings training staff and access to data we are not witness to. They are far from unimpeachable in this regard but if Papa G was a tireless worker he would still be on the team.

It comes down to this: Should the Kings front office continue to delude themselves or acknowledge the mistake(s) and move on? The answer is obvious.

This is the ray of hope I offer and what I say to the fans bummed out and sickened and verging on revolt about the casting off Hill for cap space and 2nd round pick and basically two recent 1st round pick relegated to unmitigated bust status:

We can still be a good team with a fairly crummy GM! :)

I have been saying for awhile Vlade can stumble onto success in spite of himself. It is just instead of the most direct route to competency and respectability we take the scenic route and veer off into a ditch or two along the way.

I am not disappointed in the events of today because I already knew George Hill was a disappointment and an impediment to Mason and Fox and Boggy getting 48 minutes at PG with no minutes to spare at SG with Boggy and Buddy.

Where was Hill going to pay without hindering our youth? And if he did play was he going to magically transform into a 17 PPG and fetch us a 1st round pick? No way! And no way in hell were the Kings getting that 1st pick from the Cavs for 30M owed to Hill over the next 1.5 years!

Look what the Lakers had to give: Larry Nance Jr and Clarkson, not world blazers by any mean but far more dynamic assets that the Cavs team needs to revive from the walking dead. The Kings couldn't compete with that offer unless they tossed in Skal and / or Frank.

The Hill trade was good to great move in this regard: I don't want a GM who makes a bad bet then doesn't fold his hand and instead bets more chips. I don't want a GM who compounds his mistake by refusing to admit he made a mistake out of ego and stubbornness.

It was not going to get better for Hill. He has a good chance in Cleveland and I like what they did what their roster. Adding Hill, Hood, Nance and Clarkson gives them shooting and live legs around Love and LeBron. I think they can be pretty formidable quickly.

Anyway it would not be prudent to hold out for a market for Hill that would never manifest. No one is super interested 31 year old PGs with bloated deal. It was only the special circumstances in Cleveland that presented this opportunity:

1. Threat of James walking
2. Isaiah being a shell of his former self
3. The expectations of that team to make it back to the Finals

The Kings absolutely needed to jump at the Cavs offer. No other team was going to take Hill unless they were giving back equally bad contract.

Hill made sense last offseason as a mentor and upgrade to Darren (same scoring, better defense) before we realized the passing wizardry in the half court by Boggy, and the readiness of Mason and Fox. Hill played up to his 20M contract perhaps 2-3 games over his entire tenure.

I think he was instrumental in our first win of the season in Dallas. That was the Hill that Vlade thought he was getting when he gave him 60M with 40M guaranteed. He didn't get that guy. Now whether this signing is lack of prudence or lack of fortune is up to debate.

Was Hill slowed by his bad toe? Was he hindered by the style and structure of Joerger? Ultimately it doesn't matter, because the sorry results spoke for themselves and circumstances around him changed.

It is a positive how expendable Hill became because his disposability was based significantly on the fact that we have three rookies (Boggy, Fox, Mason) who are going to be a big part of any future success the team has! Imagine if they stunk and we needed Hill because they were not ready for rotational minutes?

Minutes for Hill meant the ball would be out of Boggy's hands more in the half court, an inferior proposition, and there would not be 15-20 MPG for Mason nor 30 MPG for Fox.

It was a no-brainer to clear space and backcourt playing time and go after Julius Randle with a 4 year / 80 million this summer! No one is going to match that! Vlade screwed up not going after Jonathan Simmons last summer. I don't have faith or confidence he won't screw it up again. But he doesn't have to be a genius to target Randle as Plan A and throw a massive contract at him he can't refuse on Minute One and Day One of Free Agency!

If the Lakers are googly eyed for LeBron and Paul George they aren't going to want to tie up their cap space making qualifying offer to Randle.

We can get him now thanks to today's brilliant trades! :)

Signing Randle post-season is the best course of action as I previously detailed since to do a deal for Randle now would compromise our draft position unfavorably. Just like we didn't need a shrewd GM to pick De'Aaron at #5 we don't need a brilliant GM to recognize Randle is a perfect fit for our team. Nor will it take a genius to recognize Miles Bridges is a beast and we can probably get him with a Top 5-7 pick!

Lastly, Justin Jackson projects as a better player than Malachi and both of them were unlikely to stick long term.

You could argue that Malachi is the better defender but actually Jackson has been pretty astute with knowing where to be defense of late. He's not a physical defender but does a decent job getting through picks and keeping his man in front of him. Certainly Jackson is the more active off-the-ball player with a more dynamic scoring skillset.

So for the fans in a uproar I suggest that:

(1) We already knew Vlade was no-great-shakes when gave away the farm to Philly for cap space and traded Boogie for peanuts.
(2) Hill will hardly be missed.
(3) Papa G will hardly be missed.
(4) Malachi will hardly be missed.
(5) Hill cap strangle would prevent Vlade from another free agent swing this summer.

Yes he may swing and miss again. But at least he can take a swing! And yes this is confirmation that two recent 1st round draft picks were unqualified busts and Hill was an egregious overpay. But you cannot right your wrongs when you live in fantasyland. Let's live in reality. Let's get players who can play. Let's not keep around guys just because of where they were picked or how much they were paid.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
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#86
We basically used the trade deadline to undo the mistakes that were made with a lottery pick, 1st rounder and free agent signing. Basically we r where we were last year. Which means another year with no progress. We need to start moving forward at some point
DeAaron Fox, Frank Mason, Harry Giles, Justin Jackson, and Bogdan Bogdanovic would beg to differ.
 
#87
We basically used the trade deadline to undo the mistakes that were made with a lottery pick, 1st rounder and free agent signing. Basically we r where we were last year. Which means another year with no progress. We need to start moving forward at some point
Not sure about that!

This time last year there was no Fox, Mason, Bogdanovic, Jackson who are all showing signs of being capable NBA players.

There there is the unknown of what Giles brings. Skal still has a lot of development left and WCS has improved considerably compared to where he was 12 months ago.

Bottom line is, if you look at this Kings team at the start of this season and now, you have to admit there has been improvement across the board from the young players that the franchise has chosen to move forward with.
 
#88
People make it sound as if Kosta is a bad player. Newsflash he is not!

He is one of the best back up big men in the league who knows his role, plays it very well and does not step out of what his role is. Kosta actually started on a 57 win team. You don't do that unless you are a good player.

My hope all along was that Papa develops into a Kosta Kufous type. That would have been a pretty solid outcome for the franchise froma pretty crap draft.
It"s funny when this is brought up. He played 22 mins/game that year, backup minutes.
 
#90
In hindsight, a bad decision on the Kings part was bringing Papa over to the NBA the year they drafted him.

He would had been better served staying in Europe for 2-3 years and develop his game and body before coming over, plus he wouldn't had taken up a big league roster spot.

At this point, I think Papa may be signed to the Reno team after he clears waivers.
 
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