[Game] Kings v. Spurs - 4/18/12

[Admiral]

Is that because we're so often trailing in the third? A better stat would be win% after trialing in the third.

yes and it definitely would I will say I didn't expect a win and am ultimately ok w/ not getting it at this point.

On another note why was Manu running so fast to get there?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Hassan WhiteFlag,

 

[flipray]

This is certainly plausible. It seems equally plausible that Evans will be fine if he can get a full season of playing the same role, in the same position, and having the same expectations every night. For the last two-plus years, these have all changed, for Evans, on a night-to-night basis, on the whim of the head coach.

Now, to be fair, he can work on his jump shot, even without knowing what his role is, and I'm not prepared to say that he isn't. I don't really agree with the assessment that he can't score in bunches, as it seems as though it's something he is particularly good at; he doesn't score on a lot of jump shots, so he's not going to suddenly get hot from outside, but that's not really the same thing as not being able to score in bunches. He is too small to play SF, but is, IMO, everybody else in the league under 6'8". He shouldn't be a full-time forward, he should be a full-time guard. Which guard position? I don't care, one of them. Of larger concern, to me, is the coaching staff's reticence to want to give anyone a consistent assigned role. You can't expect someone to develop when he might have to be a PG tonight, and a SF tomorrow. Makes it difficult to get a foothold, I should think.

Granted, I've never played athletics above the high school level, but I think that, in general, it's hard to have all of the answers, when the people in charge keep changing the questions.

Agreed. I like IT and all, but I think they pulled the plug on Reke at PG too soon. He was actually playing great. Remember the Spurs and Thunder Wins. IT was also playing pretty good off the bench. Weren't they like 6-1 when JT joined the starting lineup also.

 

[Arkitect]

Yeah definitely Honeycutt time.

 

[rhythmless]

This is certainly plausible. It seems equally plausible that Evans will be fine if he can get a full season of playing the same role, in the same position, and having the same expectations every night. For the last two-plus years, these have all changed, for Evans, on a night-to-night basis, on the whim of the head coach.

Now, to be fair, he can work on his jump shot, even without knowing what his role is, and I'm not prepared to say that he isn't. I don't really agree with the assessment that he can't score in bunches, as it seems as though it's something he is particularly good at; he doesn't score on a lot of jump shots, so he's not going to suddenly get hot from outside, but that's not really the same thing as not being able to score in bunches. He is too small to play SF, but is, IMO, everybody else in the league under 6'8". He shouldn't be a full-time forward, he should be a full-time guard. Which guard position? I don't care, one of them. Of larger concern, to me, is the coaching staff's reticence to want to give anyone a consistent assigned role. You can't expect someone to develop when he might have to be a PG tonight, and a SF tomorrow. Makes it difficult to get a foothold, I should think.

Granted, I've never played athletics above the high school level, but I think that, in general, it's hard to have all of the answers, when the people in charge keep changing the questions.

When I mean in bunches, I mean partly mean with quick shots, open shots and I also mean off different types of plays. Tyreke seems the most comfortable with the ball in his hands at the top of the key and then he does his little skip and runs in. If he comes in off the bench, you can't just run this same play 5 times in a row and expect quality looks every time. You have to vary the plays, and he can't pop out to shoot, he hasn't shown the foresight for good cuts, etc.

I think a 6'7" player can play sf fine. Iggy can play SF fine, but he's far more athletic. Tyreke is really only 6'5 in shoes, 6'4 without. I'm not disputing the coaching is yankin him around, but that's also because of Tyreke's special skill set and special lack of other skills. It's really hard to fit him, so Smart is trying to fit him where he can get more ballhandling and more shooting (Tyreke's weaknesses). If Tyreke could handle the point, he would. If Tyreke could shoot, MT or IT wouldn't be there. They are there because Tyreke doesn't give them that in the lineup.

But I digress...

 

[rainmaker]

Whatever happened to Salmons? He had a sore hip, then went on to miss the last 4-6 weeks? Or is it longer? Is there some agreement that they decided not to play him any more and will amnesty him? Never heard anything serious was wrong with him.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Whatever happened to Salmons? He had a sore hip, then went on to miss the last 4-6 weeks? Or is it longer? Is there some agreement that they decided not to play him any more and will amnesty him? Never heard anything serious was wrong with him.

He's probably got idontneedthis****itis.

 

[Padrino]

When I mean in bunches, I mean partly mean with quick shots, open shots and I also mean off different types of plays. Tyreke seems the most comfortable with the ball in his hands at the top of the key and then he does his little skip and runs in. If he comes in off the bench, you can't just run this same play 5 times in a row and expect quality looks every time. You have to vary the plays, and he can't pop out to shoot, he hasn't shown the foresight for good cuts, etc.

I think a 6'7" player can play sf fine. Iggy can play SF fine, but he's far more athletic. Tyreke is really only 6'5 in shoes, 6'4 without. I'm not disputing the coaching is yankin him around, but that's also because of Tyreke's special skill set and special lack of other skills. It's really hard to fit him, so Smart is trying to fit him where he can get more ballhandling and more shooting (Tyreke's weaknesses). If Tyreke could handle the point, he would. If Tyreke could shoot, MT or IT wouldn't be there. They are there because Tyreke doesn't give them that in the lineup.

But I digress...

uhm...

again, its an illusion that tyreke is a one-dimensional player. his head coach's are, for whatever reason, simply unwilling to creatively coach towards his strengths, and towards cousins' strengths, for that matter. they're both talented enough to do the above all day long. and when i say "the above," i don't mean run reiterations of the same play. i mean they can be a dominant duo in the nba if the kings' coaching staff would just commit to developing them as a dominant duo. that means they are options #1 and #2 every time down the floor. you go to thornton or thomas or whoever in the event that those options are taken away, but otherwise, you craft a winner internally, through your two best players, rather than hoping the wins will birth themselves from a hope and a prayer. but that takes work, and gimmick ball is much less work. keith smart is not experienced enough to handle the challenge. gimme nate mcmillan, and the complexion of this team is much different, and likely for the better...

 

[Admiral]

can you imagine thibs or brooks in lieu of westy/smart?

 

[Padrino]

can you imagine thibs or brooks in lieu of westy/smart?

i can. and it hurts to do so.

 

[rainmaker]

can you imagine thibs or brooks in lieu of westy/smart?

Please don't torture me.

 

[Section 101]

Holy molly. 39 3rd quarter pts for SA! Disgusting.

Maybe if I throw a penny in a fountain and make a wish, we'll play defense.

The Spurs are just on fire right now. They destroyed the Lakers last night and Warriors the night before.

 

[rhythmless]

One highlight does not a career make. How many of Tyreke's layups are assisted? I can film a youtube clip of me making a halfcourt shot. Does that mean I should get signed? Sheesh. Of course he's got these clips. Shawn Bradley also has dunks over people, but that's not what defined his career. I like Tyreke. I think Tyreke can become as good as he wants to be. That's why I'm also so disappointed in his lack of progress. He's got a lot of good excuses why he isn't as good as he can be. Everyone has good excuses for why they can't do this or that. At the end of the day, his failure to live up to his potential will be his own.

I'm not sure if Nate is that much better. I'd like JVG, but he's too comfy with that mic.

 

[Gary]

This is certainly plausible. It seems equally plausible that Evans will be fine if he can get a full season of playing the same role, in the same position, and having the same expectations every night. For the last two-plus years, these have all changed, for Evans, on a night-to-night basis, on the whim of the head coach.

He's been PG every game except for when Smart took over. He did split time with Beno in bringing the ball up and setting up the offense for a while, but other than that he was our PG. They haven't been moving him around for two and a half years.

 

[Padrino]

One highlight does not a career make. How many of Tyreke's layups are assisted? I can film a youtube clip of me making a halfcourt shot. Does that mean I should get signed? Sheesh. Of course he's got these clips. Shawn Bradley also has dunks over people, but that's not what defined his career. I like Tyreke. I think Tyreke can become as good as he wants to be. That's why I'm also so disappointed in his lack of progress. He's got a lot of good excuses why he isn't as good as he can be. Everyone has good excuses for why they can't do this or that. At the end of the day, his failure to live up to his potential will be his own.

I'm not sure if Nate is that much better. I'd like JVG, but he's too comfy with that mic.

you miss the point. you attempted to claim that tyreke lacks the foresight to make proper use of the cut in the nba. that clip proves that he does have the foresight to cut properly in the nba. he did it. he's done it on multiple occasions this season. there's evidence. your claim is then incorrect. and, in my estimation, the kings' coaching staff would be so much better served attempting to harness tyreke's ability to get to the basket in a variety of ways. do you honestly believe that, if the coaching staff drew up such a play from time to time, demarcus and tyreke would not be able to repeat the results of the youtube clip i posted? what kind of flimsy conclusion is that? they've done it. they can do it. just because a player is being grossly misused doesn't mean he lacks the capacity to do the things you've claimed. and attempting to correlate shawn bradley's terribly limited usage to tyreke's versatile skillset is folly. there's nothing of substance in such a comparison, except to point out how useless it is...

 

[rhythmless]

you miss the point. you attempted to claim that tyreke lacks the foresight to make proper use of the cut in the nba. that clip proves that he does have the foresight to cut properly in the nba. he did it. he's done it on multiple occasions this season. there's evidence. your claim is then incorrect. and, in my estimation, the kings' coaching staff would be so much better served attempting to harness tyreke's ability to get to the basket in a variety of ways. do you honestly believe that, if the coaching staff drew up such a play from time to time, demarcus and tyreke would not be able to repeat the results of the youtube clip i posted? what kind of flimsy conclusion is that? they've done it. they can do it. just because a player is being grossly misused doesn't mean he lacks the capacity to do the things you've claimed. and attempting to correlate shawn bradley's terribly limited usage to tyreke's versatile skillset is folly. there's nothing of substance in such a comparison, except to point out how useless it is...

So much irony in this post. I'll stop with the derailment of the game thread. I'm not even sure Tyreke played tonight.

 

[Padrino]

He's been PG every game except for when Smart took over. He did split time with Beno in bringing the ball up and setting up the offense for a while, but other than that he was our PG. They haven't been moving him around for two and a half years.

well, yeah. you kinda prove slim's point. in 'reke's first season, he was the man. his role was clear, and he turned out 20/5/5 with relative ease. enter demarcus cousins in year two, and paul westphal is at a loss for how to combine these two young, talented players, one of whom was dealing with unfortunate foot and ankle injuries for the majority of the season. then year three comes around, and, without a training camp, and with exactly two preseason games under the team's belt, westphal decides to unveil a new offense, redefining tyreke's role, as well as cousins' role, and westphal ended up losing his grip on his players. the losses piled up early, and he was fired. enter keith smart, who has done nothing but jerk 'reke around since he took over. tyreke should absolutely be further along. there are things he could be doing on his own to improve in any given offseason. he could jack up 1000 shots a day to help that jumper along. but, regardless, he's got enough existing talent that a good head coach should be able to exploit, grow, and find success with. suppressing those natural talents is foolish, and those who are unwilling to recognize when a player is being misused are fooling themselves...

 

[Padrino]

So much irony in this post. I'll stop with the derailment of the game thread. I'm not even sure Tyreke played tonight.

either you simply do not grasp irony, or you need to elaborate further...

 

[Mal]

Look up Evan's production at point vs his opponents. 82games.com He was poor...at best.

 

[Mal]

Are you talking about the guy with 8 assists and ONE turnover...... The guy with 31 assists and THREE turnovers in the last FIVE GAMES? And, you're complaining about one "almost" turnover. Something very bizarre coming from the peanut gallery.

 

[gunks]

can you imagine thibs or brooks in lieu of westy/smart?

Makes me want to punch George, Joe, Gavin and GP in the face.

 

[Arkitect]

Look up Evan's production at point vs his opponents. 82games.com He was poor...at best.

Well he spent the better part of the 2 years before this one playing PG. He had the greatest differential in net production on the team both years. (+4.9 and +2.0(injured) ) And both of those were higher than IT this year(+1.3). So I don't buy it. His weakness at PG this year is either a statistical anomaly or a result of not having a competently put together or coached team.

 

[Tyndel]

I had a reply typed out for another discussion another thread but here is part of it:

Reke not getting into the offense early enough is really easy to fix.... You yell at him from the sideline and if he does it in practice until he gets the idea. I disagree that Reke at PG is over and I think that if we lose him after next year he will be moved back to PG on another team if we don't already do it ourselves. He was making great progress when smart was implementing a system he was showing promise at pg when Smart was calling plays from the side and when there were actual plays to run. He would have eventually gotten the correct habits retrained if we would have continued correcting his mistakes. His primary mistakes being what not involving team mates enough and not bringing it up fast enough... Easy to fix with plays and coaching.

 

[gunks]

Yep...Which makes the coaching situation even more frustrating.

I was excited the first couple weeks of Smart, because both Cousins AND Reke were showing real progress. I dont know what the hell happened since then. The Maloofs IT for ROTY campaign?

This franchise of ours is crazy frustrating.

 

[Padrino]

I had a reply typed out for another discussion another thread but here is part of it:

Reke not getting into the offense early enough is really easy to fix.... You yell at him from the sideline and if he does it in practice until he gets the idea. I disagree that Reke at PG is over and I think that if we lose him after next year he will be moved back to PG on another team if we don't already do it ourselves. He was making great progress when smart was implementing a system he was showing promise at pg when Smart was calling plays from the side and when there were actual plays to run. He would have eventually gotten the correct habits retrained if we would have continued correcting his mistakes. His primary mistakes being what not involving team mates enough and not bringing it up fast enough... Easy to fix with plays and coaching.

in many fewer words, you've managed to sum up arguments i've been attempting to make all season. you coach players through their weaknesses, rather than ignoring those weaknesses, hoping they'll just vanish, or attempting to hide them out-of-position. whether an individual wants to call tyreke evans a PG or a SG makes little difference. he has weaknesses that need to be ironed out, but all the personal motivation in the world isn't enough to bridge those gaps if you aren't privy to the wisdom of coaches and veteran teammates.

its not the 80's anymore. prolific players aren't coming off of four-year stints in college. they're 19 or 20 when they enter the league, and they need to be taught much more than young players of eras long since past. however, at present, the kings have neither veteran players nor veteran coaches, so, if you're willing to do the math, its pretty ****ing easy to see why 'reke has not made the strides we've all wanted to see. but you don't ignore the problem, and you certainly don't ignore the problem while alienating that player's natural gifts at the same time. its mind-numbingly stupid to do so, especially with a top-5 pick. what an absolute waste...

 

[Mal]

Kings are minus 1.6 with Thomas on the court, and minus 9.2 without him...a relative plus of 7.6. Kings are minus 7.2 with Evans on the court and minus 1.9 without him, ...a negative of 5.3.

Net differential between having Thomas on the court and having Evans....12.9 better with Thomas.

The updated figures do show the difference between Thomas and opponents has narrowed to plus 1.3....but considering the guys he has played against that's a good showing.

Is the team better with Thomas on the the court, or with Evans? By a mile, it's Thomas.

Evans has an effective field goal percentage of .456, Thomas .514.

Evans has a net PER of minus 3.1 verses opponents. Thomas has a net PER of plus 1.8.

Thomas has a ball handling/turnover rating of 19.9, Evans 15.7 The difference is even more pronounced in the clutch...Thomas 16.9 Evans 12.5 (Taking care of the ball. of course, is the primary responsibility of a point guard) Thomas has a passer rating of 9.5, Evans 7.4.

Feel free, of course, to use any statistics you think show Evans as a better point guard. Based on the numbers, Thomas makes the team better, Evans make them worse.

 

[Spike]

I'll just use the win/loss metric.

 

[Glenn]

Who are you arguing with? Name people who think that Tyreke is a better point guard. I don't think Tyreke is a better point guard but I DO wish we would try him back at PG a a starter and use a real SF to play that position like TWill and try IT off the bench where he can fire away at will. We are as pitiful as before so play with stats all you wish but nothing is helping us and in the end, I am more concerned with the progression of the Kings than the progression of any individual player.

The fact is, no matter who is playing point guard, we are losing at about the same rate as before IT took over. I don't think our problem is with the players but with the coach. Oh, and as far as I am concerned, won/lost record is the ultimate and most easily and less confusing stat to follow.

I like the name "mal." People ought to look up the Latin meaning.

 

[Lockehead]

On the subject of Reke, he's not as productive at the SF compared to being at the PG is he? That's a part of the problem. SF is not his position, except in the rare instances of smallball should the opportunity for it ever give rise. To me, his natural position is SG. Yes he can look a bit unfamiliar, or lost, out there. But IMO that's because he's been playing the PG position for 2 years. That's 2 years of development in the "wrong" position that he could've spent developing his game for his "natural" position. Imagine if Reke had been developing as a SG for these past 2 years. How much better would he look now? How much more cohesive would he appear next to Cousins?