Kings to keep Gay and Ben

[sactownfan]

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/10/11/vlade-divac-kings-keeping-ben-mclemore-rudy-gay/

I'm gonna have to agree with Vlad here. Ben and gay are at a low as far as league wide value.

Ben is without a doubt extremely talented. He has everything u could hope for in a star player. But just has yet to get his head right. BUT given the teams stability over his time here. All the coaches and other nonsense I don't blame him. I really think this could be a big year for him and cutting him loose now would come back to haunt us. Especially cause he's not bringing anything back in return. Might as well see what Coach Dave can do and roll the dice.

Gay on the other hand is starting to resemble (preseason) that player we traded for and all of a sudden was extremely efficient and productive. He could be back on track this year too. But if the right deal comes along he's most likely to be moved by all-star break. If we don't end up trading him it won't be the end of the world to just let him walk. Especially if we really are playoff bound by the all-star break and he's playing well.

 

[Bricklayer]

The subtext there is of course "since we couldn't get any deal we liked", but still, yeah. Could see this developing in camp, and especially as the team, sans kids, has seemed to be quite competitive.

P.S. Why couldn't you have just said this last week Vlade? Would have made it much easier on me putting together the Season Kickoff vid if I could have been sure I could use Rudy and Ben in it. SMH at the lack of consideration.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Ben getting his head on straight isn't going to suddenly improve his incredibly poor ball handling and inability to create his own shot.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ben getting his head on straight isn't going to suddenly improve his incredibly poor ball handling and inability to create his own shot.

No, but I think one of the early lessons of this preseason, is that Joerger's offense doesn't actually require its SGs to have any great deal of ability with the ball. Which when you think about it makes sense given that Tony Allen and Courtney Lee were holding down the position for him in Memphis. Ben is neither guy, and if he were starting you'd have the same issues as always there. But with Afflalo here to eat up 30min a night, with options in Temple and maybe eventually Malachi, you might be talking about 15min a night and just needing Ben to stay limited and give you 5-7 pts in far fewer minutes than it normally takes him to get those numbers.

When you get down to it, George Karl's system was a talent system, which is the very worst system you can put a guy with no talent with the ball into. On the other hand it looks like Joerger is going to be using a very disciplined system which will help our not terribly talented team to compete. You could rationally decide that Ben could give you limited backup minutes in such a system and just fill a role and a hole in the lineup. And if you're wrong, you just have Temple fill that role instead with little interruption.

 

[sactownfan]

Ben getting his head on straight isn't going to suddenly improve his incredibly poor ball handling and inability to create his own shot.

Ben's not a PG. He's shown enough ball handling to drive by someone to the rack. I totally disagree with the assessment of him having poor handles. AGAIN... its a mental/ court vision thing with him... The game hasn't slowed down enough for him, where he can look up and see what the best options are for him and choose correctly what to do... hes not dribbling the ball off his foot all the time or getting it taken away from him... he's driving into the wrong place at the wrong time.

He had some great dribble moves pull up and step back in the last game... Look if his shot had just fallen more over the last few years and he hadn't been missing so many wide open 3's we wouldn't be nitpicking his all around games.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm not shocked by this. I say revisit the trade market for Rudy and Ben come February and see if anything of worth comes in return. In the mean time, Gay will be playing better this year due to this being a contract season for him and looking for one last pay day, so I see Rudy being more focused and committed. I said this in another thread but I'd give Ben this one last season to see what he can do under Joerger before I decide to ship him out of town, maybe he can do something with the guy.

 

[Hoovtrain]

To sactownfan...we will have to agree to disagree . His handles are poor for a SG as is his ability to create his own shots as is his ability to finish shots at the rim. Basically he better start working on moving without the ball and being able to consistently knock down open shots because that is the only real offensive contribution I see him making .

 

[Bricklayer]

BTW, to whoever threw up the millionth excuse for Ben, on the "the game just hasn't slowed down for him" front: if the game hasn't slowed down for Ben than maybe he should try another sport.

Ben's already played 6300 career minutes in the NBA. That puts him already within the Top 1500 NBA players of all time in minutes. Anthony Tolliver, hoary old vet we just signed, only has a total of 8913. Jae crowder only has 6562. Tiago Spitter only has 6736. Nikola Pekovic is probably going to retire now with 6744. Kentavius Caldwell-Pope from the same draft is thriving with 6959.

 

[New Era]

 

[Glenn]

No, but I think one of the early lessons of this preseason, is that Joerger's offense doesn't actually require its SGs to have any great deal of ability with the ball. Which when you think about it makes sense given that Tony Allen and Courtney Lee were holding down the position for him in Memphis. Ben is neither guy, and if he were starting you'd have the same issues as always there. But with Afflalo here to eat up 30min a night, with options in Temple and maybe eventually Malachi, you might be talking about 15min a night and just needing Ben to stay limited and give you 5-7 pts in far fewer minutes than it normally takes him to get those numbers.

When you get down to it, George Karl's system was a talent system, which is the very worst system you can put a guy with no talent with the ball into. On the other hand it looks like Joerger is going to be using a very disciplined system which will help our not terribly talented team to compete. You could rationally decide that Ben could give you limited backup minutes in such a system and just fill a role and a hole in the lineup. And if you're wrong, you just have Temple fill that role instead with little interruption.

Bingo.

 

[ESP47]

Ben's not a PG. He's shown enough ball handling to drive by someone to the rack. I totally disagree with the assessment of him having poor handles. AGAIN... its a mental/ court vision thing with him... The game hasn't slowed down enough for him, where he can look up and see what the best options are for him and choose correctly what to do... hes not dribbling the ball off his foot all the time or getting it taken away from him... he's driving into the wrong place at the wrong time.

He had some great dribble moves pull up and step back in the last game... Look if his shot had just fallen more over the last few years and he hadn't been missing so many wide open 3's we wouldn't be nitpicking his all around games.

He rarely ever drives and when he does he almost always dribbles off his knee, gets it stolen or throws up a wild layup that's way too hard off the glass.

I'm sorry but Ben's ball handling is about as bad as it gets for an athletic SG. You can defend many parts of his game but ball handling just isn't one of them.

 

[LPKingsFan]

When does the pain relief kick in?

 

[sactownfan]

BTW, to whoever threw up the millionth excuse for Ben, on the "the game just hasn't slowed down for him" front: if the game hasn't slowed down for Ben than maybe he should try another sport.

Ben's already played 6300 career minutes in the NBA. That puts him already within the Top 1500 NBA players of all time in minutes. Anthony Tolliver, hoary old vet we just signed, only has a total of 8913. Jae crowder only has 6562. Tiago Spitter only has 6736. Nikola Pekovic is probably going to retire now with 6744. Kentavius Caldwell-Pope from the same draft is thriving with 6959.

I used that excuse .... but.... I also added the VERY IMPORTANT addendum... How many coaches has Ben had? If all the off the court and coaching changes can affect a player of Boogies pedigree... what effect would that have on a guy that UNLIKE Cousins had confidence issues to begin with????

UNLIKE boogie Ben got hooked and his mins majorly messed with. Boogie no mater what nonsense was unfolding couldn't have his mins messed with so there is that too. Boogie never had to check into a game and wonder how quick was he gonna get pulled out if he made one mistake

 

[sactownfan]

BTW, to whoever threw up the millionth excuse for Ben, on the "the game just hasn't slowed down for him" front: if the game hasn't slowed down for Ben than maybe he should try another sport.

Ben's already played 6300 career minutes in the NBA. That puts him already within the Top 1500 NBA players of all time in minutes. Anthony Tolliver, hoary old vet we just signed, only has a total of 8913. Jae crowder only has 6562. Tiago Spitter only has 6736. Nikola Pekovic is probably going to retire now with 6744. Kentavius Caldwell-Pope from the same draft is thriving with 6959.

U make a point... not a great one... on total mins... I think u can have 2 equally talented players that have an equal number of mins. But if one is in a slightly stable or very stable system where that player feels comfortable and confident checking in that is an entirely different situation compared to what Ben has had to go through and his early years. There's no way around this. The kings of been an absolute mess. It really does seem that coach Dave finally has the team in a better mental place for once.

The idea that Ben would flourish in any other system than ours is the only reason he has trade value to begin with right now. Not all teams or mins are the same

 

[KingsFanGER]

So Vlade hesitates to make a move and everything is focused on the short term goal to reach the PO this year (outside of our draft picks obviously).
Losing Ben for nothing at the end of the year doesn't bother me much. But the very obvious risk to let our second best player walk for nothing to go all in on a first round exit (which is pretty much the best case scenario) doesn't seem all too reasonable for me. I'm not a fan of tanking, but to cut a rebuild short you need to win a few trades like Danny Ainge did for the Celtics or you need to sign impactful FA's.
If it's our goal to avoid a full scale rebuild, we are not doing a great job so far.

 

[Bricklayer]

So Vlade hesitates to make a move and everything is focused on the short term goal to reach the PO this year (outside of our draft picks obviously).
Losing Ben for nothing at the end of the year doesn't bother me much. But the very obvious risk to let our second best player walk for nothing to go all in on a first round exit (which is pretty much the best case scenario) doesn't seem all too reasonable for me. I'm not a fan of tanking, but to cut a rebuild short you need to win a few trades like Danny Ainge did for the Celtics or you need to sign impactful FA's.
If it's our goal to avoid a full scale rebuild, we are not doing a great job so far.

First round exit would be a brilliant accomplishment for us.

It could very well win us one of those 2 year Russell Westbrook extensions from Cuz, breaks the drought, Cuz goes first team all nba, Joerger in the COY running, and we have half our contracts ending just in time to cash in on our sudden free agency sexiness.

The pack of very unready kids we have shows we are still cheating with one foot ready to blow it up and go agonizingly young if it happens, but as I noted after the first game, that starting lineup, and really bulk of the rotation, is really experienced now. The coach has one of the highest winning percentages in the league (.598, for comparison Doc is at .577, Rick Carlisle is at a .584).

Koufos 8yrs
Cousins 6yrs
Gay 10yrs
Afflalo 9yrs
Lawson 7yrs

Collison 7yrs
Casspi 7yrs
Temple 6yrs
Tolliver 8yrs
Barnes 13yrs

McLemore 3yrs
Cauley-Stein 1yr

Is a REALLY experienced group. The two young guys at the end of it are well back in the rotation at the moment because its apparent we aren't wasting time or wins on development anymore. No gifts. That's a bunch of guys right in the prime of their careers (or in Barnes' case even beyond it). And obviously a group that is built to win now. And we have a coach who's had success with that kind of older crew. And that coach thing makes so much difference. You get an experienced crew with a strong organized coach who they believe can make them win, and they can be tough to beat or rattle.

 

[KingsFanGER]

First round exit would be a brilliant accomplishment for us.

It could very well win us one of those 2 year Russell Westbrook extensions from Cuz, breaks the drought, Cuz goes first team all nba, Joerger in the COY running, and we have half our contracts ending just in time to cash in on our sudden free agency sexiness.

The pack of very unready kids we have shows we are still cheating with one foot ready to blow it up and go agonizingly young if it happens, but as I noted after the first game, that starting lineup, and really bulk of the rotation, is really experienced now. The coach has one of the highest winning percentages in the league (.598, for comparison Doc is at .577, Rick Carlisle is at a .584).

Koufos 8yrs
Cousins 6yrs
Gay 10yrs
Afflalo 9yrs
Lawson 7yrs

Collison 7yrs
Casspi 7yrs
Temple 6yrs
Tolliver 8yrs
Barnes 13yrs

McLemore 3yrs
Cauley-Stein 1yr

Is a REALLY experienced group. The two young guys at the end of it are well back in the rotation at the moment because its apparent we aren't wasting time or wins on development anymore. No gifts. That's a bunch of guys right in the prime of their careers (or in Barnes' case even beyond it). And obviously a group that is built to win now. And we have a coach who's had success with that kind of older crew. And that coach thing makes so much difference. You get an experienced crew with a strong organized coach who they believe can make them win, and they can be tough to beat or rattle.

Yes we agree, that Vlade tries to follow a two way strategy. Problem is, that most likely you will end up with mediocre results in both areas, if you are not the Spurs.
Our win now crew is seasoned, but lacks talent. Our young guys are not guys, who are widely expected to have a great future in the NBA by most analysts (not saying they won't have a great future, but the odds favour the consensual high tier draftees in that regard). The risk, that the wheels fall off completely next year, is real. And as usual with the Kings it's always about next year, while other franchises improve this year.
The one thing, that really can change everything is Joerger.

 

[funkykingston]

Here's what Tolliver said after being traded from Phoenix to Detroit:

"There is one big difference between the two teams," Tolliver said. "The Suns' system is more geared to playing one-on-one, and that's really not the type of player I am. Here, it is geared more toward ball movement and sharing the ball. I can automatically feel the difference. For a player like me, that's where I have to be to be successful."

Tolliver, Barnes & Temple aren't guys who you can throw the ball into and say "go get us a bucket". To an extent Afflalo can (especially if he's got an opposing SG that he can effectively post up) but I don't think that's the best use for him.

The four guys signed in free agency are smart, team oriented guys who can be counted on to make the right play more often than not. Make the right rotation on defense, make the right read on a split cut, make the right decision to shoot or move the ball, know whether to roll or fade on the pick & roll etc.

And also, Temple, Tolliver and Barnes have been celebrated as good locker room/chemistry guys. I'm not sure how Afflalo is viewed in that context but he seems to have fit in well so far.

Point being, the Kings are now not only experienced and deep but made up of a lot of smart players content to play their role and contribute positively to the team culture. For a coach with a high level of X's & O's mastery and a desire to run a lot of read and react offense and aggressive defense these may look like great signings as the season rolls along.

 

[John Galt]

the very obvious risk to let our second best player walk for nothing

We don't know what was on the table for Rudy though. If he could have had an expiring contract and a prospect or protected first rounder that's one thing. If all the offers included a crap contract coming back, that's another.

 

[206Fan]

So Vlade hesitates to make a move and everything is focused on the short term goal to reach the PO this year (outside of our draft picks obviously).
Losing Ben for nothing at the end of the year doesn't bother me much. But the very obvious risk to let our second best player walk for nothing to go all in on a first round exit (which is pretty much the best case scenario) doesn't seem all too reasonable for me. I'm not a fan of tanking, but to cut a rebuild short you need to win a few trades like Danny Ainge did for the Celtics or you need to sign impactful FA's.
If it's our goal to avoid a full scale rebuild, we are not doing a great job so far.

Since this is Gay's final year, his value is not high at all.

I'd rather keep Gay because he's a solid #2 option and takes a gigantic scoring load off of Cousins rather than a late 1st round pick that won't help our team out this year.

Danny Ainge is a wizard. Signing impactful FAs is hard to do unless we prove we have something real around Cuz.

 

[pshn80]

Yes we agree, that Vlade tries to follow a two way strategy. Problem is, that most likely you will end up with mediocre results in both areas, if you are not the Spurs.
Our win now crew is seasoned, but lacks talent. Our young guys are not guys, who are widely expected to have a great future in the NBA by most analysts (not saying they won't have a great future, but the odds favour the consensual high tier draftees in that regard). The risk, that the wheels fall off completely next year, is real. And as usual with the Kings it's always about next year, while other franchises improve this year.
The one thing, that really can change everything is Joerger.

The only thing I agree with in your post is your last sentence.

 

[funkykingston]

So far Rudy seems to like Joerger's offense. It's allowing him to be a playmaker again and giving him more of a true role. Rudy has stated that last year he didn't know what his role was. And of course there was Rondo dominating the ball and deciding who got set up on offense. Now the ball moves a lot more and Rudy is back to feeling like he and Cousins are the guys to go get a basket when it's needed.

Rudy will definitely opt out. He may not definitely rule out returning to the Kings.

 

[itzcoatl]

So far Rudy seems to like Joerger's offense. It's allowing him to be a playmaker again and giving him more of a true role. Rudy has stated that last year he didn't know what his role was. And of course there was Rondo dominating the ball and deciding who got set up on offense. Now the ball moves a lot more and Rudy is back to feeling like he and Cousins are the guys to go get a basket when it's needed.

Rudy will definitely opt out. He may not definitely rule out returning to the Kings.

I've noticed the same thing. The thing that has tempered my hopes that Rudy resigns is that Rudy knew Joerger from Memphis but made the trade demand in spite of that. So I'm not altogether certain that a better role for Rudy will convince him to say. But who know? Winning cures all ills, right?

 

[Kingsfan23]

I'm seeing too much smoke. The Dragic and Payne rumors. Gay cavalier about his time here in interviews lately. I want to keep him but it seems apparent he's still being shopped. If so, let's hope he doesn't kill his value like last nights performance

 

[Jimbob]

I'm seeing too much smoke. The Dragic and Payne rumors. Gay cavalier about his time here in interviews lately. I want to keep him but it seems apparent he's still being shopped. If so, let's hope he doesn't kill his value like last nights performance

Hoopshype mentions interest in both Rubio and Payne, for Gay.
Supposedly talks stalled with OKC after Payne broke his foot. Still I like it that they are targeting a more long term starting PG. He's young and not extremely proven but Payne is promising.

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm not sure I like the sound of the Kings going after more unproven youth in a package for arguably one of their top 2 talents especially after the Durant quotes about the reasons he left the Thunder. The Thunder went the same route and tried to play both sides of the fence of stockpiling while competing and look what happened there. Draft night already showed the same potential cracks with Cuz.

 

[Padrino]

I'm not sure I like the sound of the Kings going after more unproven youth in a package for arguably one of their top 2 talents especially after the Durant quotes about the reasons he left the Thunder. The Thunder went the same route and tried to play both sides of the fence of stockpiling while competing and look what happened there. Draft night already showed the same potential cracks with Cuz.

look what happened there? they were perennial contenders in a brutally difficult west who repeatedly reached the conference finals while losing once in the 2012 nba finals and very narrowly losing out on a chance to compete in the 2016 nba finals. yes, you always run the risk of watching superstar talent walk if you can't get over that hump, but small market franchises like the thunder and the kings absolutely must make use of every avenue available to them to improve. like all teams, the thunder missed occasionally, but overall, they're an organization that's largely done right by its team and its fans, remaining competitive and developing young talent in-house to the best of their ability along the way.

 

[SacTownKid]

look what happened there? they were perennial contenders in a brutally difficult west who repeatedly reached the conference finals while losing once in the 2012 nba finals and very narrowly losing out on a chance to compete in the 2016 nba finals. yes, you always run the risk of watching superstar talent walk if you can't get over that hump, but small market franchises like the thunder and the kings absolutely must make use of every avenue available to them to improve. like all teams, the thunder missed occasionally, but overall, they're an organization that's largely done right by its team and its fans, remaining competitive and developing young talent in-house to the best of their ability along the way.

Like I said, look what happened there, their franchise walked because they didn't go out and get veteran players and opted to go the same the basic route as the proposed Gay trade above. Those are his words. Then again, maybe next time Cuz will just coincidentally be in hot yoga class... again.

 

[gunks]

I'm not sure I like the sound of the Kings going after more unproven youth in a package for arguably one of their top 2 talents especially after the Durant quotes about the reasons he left the Thunder. The Thunder went the same route and tried to play both sides of the fence of stockpiling while competing and look what happened there. Draft night already showed the same potential cracks with Cuz.

Well, you gotta factor in that Cuz is loyal as hell and Durant is a *****.

If our FO was able to put together a contender around Cuz, there is no way I see him walking away. Especially to join a rival contender

That's the thing though.... Compared to the Thunder, who have drafted brilliantly, our various FOs have been pooping the bed year after year. And as much as I like Vlade's cohesive vision and what he's done to the roster, it would seem that drafting is his Achilles heel as well.

Hire some damn talent scouts, Vivek! Or invent Scoutbot 5000 already!

Anyways, what were we talking about?

 

[SacTownKid]

Building a contender is obviously the goal, I hope, but the Kings do not have the time to build a contender that's ready to go 5 years down the road. Cuz needs players that are ready to go now. Getting some young talent is fine, but I don't like the idea of trading one of the top veteran talents on the team for that young talent. Draft night was used to get some prospects so that's good enough for now, they can't think too much about long term future because if they do Cuz might not be in it and if he's not in it there will be plenty of time to think about that long term future and probably more than a few more high lotto picks to sift through.

Cuz is a loyal dude, but always consider the circumstances and things we've already seen from Cuz. The Thunder have drafted brilliantly, but in Durants mind that brilliance didn't translate to helping him win a title NOW and apparently that was a deciding factor in him deciding to leave the team.