Kings sign Cory Joseph

#64
Im not sure people realize how higg the cap keeps going every year. The Kings payed the Sacramento tax but they werent significant overpays when you consider that they still have 3-4M in capsoace and a 9M MLE AND all these contracts are short and partially guaranteed on their final year.

Dedmon provides everything WCS did but mut better rim protection and elite outside shooting. He is as good or a better interior defender and probably a slightly better rebounder. The benefit is on offense he opens the lane and wont harm you end game with his free throws.

Ariza is still an above average to elite perimeter defender and shot 34% from 3 last year. Averaged 14 for the wizards grabbed 5 boards and almost 4 assists per game. Still a solid starter on mosts teams. If he is off your bench you have a great depth. Your ability to defend a lebron, kawhi type goes up with him on your team.

With Joseph, I would have preferred Beverly (who was only 1M more per year) but my impression he wants to start. That being said he is a solid defender and a competent player for the second unit. That being said, Bogi will likely be running the second unit and have the ball in his hands more often than not. He will be expected to help as a secondary playmaker for that squad. But he needs to improve his outside shooting to keep teams honest. If he can get to 36-38% i would be super excited. He gives a sort of Fred VanFleet vibe but bigger and better defender. The Kings shooting coaches last year did a great job developing the shooters across the board, especially with Fox and Bagley. They need to target Joseph and Giles a bit this year too.

With respect to barnes, you will not find a better SF at this price anywhere in the league who is not on a rookie scale. Solid defender, good shooter and can go get his own offense as needed. While he is expensive he is probably a top 10 SF.
 
#68
I was hoping for just $9 Mil a year. I like the player just not the price. I guess the non guaranteed 3rd year helps. If we make the playoffs, I'd say all these overpays might be worth it
The common theme with all these signings is we rewarded these guys with big money contracts, but we got flexibility to get out of the deal in the final year in return. Which, is honestly pretty smart with all our young guys being up for extensions at some point in that time-span. And we had to spend the money this off-season, so getting future flexibility out of overpaying (Barnes decreasing contract, 3 NG contracts) is a good play.
 
#69
The common theme with all these signings is we rewarded these guys with big money contracts, but we got flexibility to get out of the deal in the final year in return. Which, is honestly pretty smart with all our young guys being up for extensions at some point in that time-span. And we had to spend the money this off-season, so getting future flexibility out of overpaying (Barnes decreasing contract, 3 NG contracts) is a good play.
Agreed. The per year bump to buy flexibility on the back end seems like a worthy trade off to me.
 
#71
He's absolutely an upgrade over Yogi

Joseph:

1.53 DRPM (4th among PGs)
0.8 VORP
-0.5 BPM (but 1.4 DBPM, his offense was really bad last season)
20.7% AST rate
7.5% TRB
47.4% TS (ick)
12.8% TOV
13.7% USG rate

Yogi:
-1.45 DRPM (88th among PGs)
-0.1 VORP
-2.3 BPM
17.0% AST rate
5.3% TRB
55% TS
9.5% TOV
16.3% USG

So you're taking a hit with floor spacing, but you're getting a massive defensive upgrade, a better playmaker, a better rebounder and doesn't need the same amount of possessions as Yogi did. Think the fit is great with Bogi off the bench, giving him a good secondary playmaker that can swing over and actually guard SG's. Think its reasonable to expect a bounce-back in his efficiency; he's basically been over 51% TS his entire career. He gets back to that along with the defense, that'll give him a strong impact boost.

Back-up guard was probably the weakest hole on the team. Not only were Yogi and Mason just straight bad, they forced Bogdan to play a role he wasn't suited for and made one of our best players from the previous year less effective.
First off, I'm not sure how Joseph helps as a secondary playmaker but Ferrell doesn't. Why do you think that way when the majority of the stats point towards not only Ferrell being a better offensive player but them being on the same level from an assist & turnover perspective?


The impact stats over the past few years have jumped around on these two. I'm not sure how reliable it is to reference last year when we see huge swings like this:

1561999579206.png

Joseph killed it this year across impacts stats, but was bad last year. Ferrell killed it last year across impact stats, but was bad last year. I think any reasonable person would look at this data and say its hard to distinguish who's undoubtedly better. I took a basic average at the bottom for the 3 seasons to give us perhaps a better sense for how these two perhaps perform at their norm. There's not much difference between the two as you can see. Their total impact stats are very close across the board.

I think the other thing to keep in mind when looking at some of the impact stats is that Joseph played 67% of his minutes this year with Sabonis on the floor. Sabonis was a legit MIP candidate this year who went from (per36)...

.567 TS% / .514 FG% / .351 3PT% / .750 FT% / 17.1 PPG / 11.4 RPG / 3.0 APG / 0.8 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 2.7 TOPG

to...

.630 TS% / .590 FG% / .529 3PT% / .715 FT% / 20.4 PPG / 13.5 RPG / 4.2 APG / 0.9 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 3.1 TOPG

I wouldn't be surprised if some of Sabonis impact is rolling into Joseph's metrics this season (especially when we look at how lackluster these metrics were in 2016-17 & 2017-18).

Look I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful to have a better backup PG. I'm just not sure Joseph is going to be leaps & bounds better than Ferrell. The fact that I'm saying that statement while knowing Joseph makes $9.3 mil more per season than Ferrell, makes me cringe at this signing.
 
#72
First off, I'm not sure how Joseph helps as a secondary playmaker but Ferrell doesn't. Why do you think that way when the majority of the stats point towards not only Ferrell being a better offensive player but them being on the same level from an assist & turnover perspective?


The impact stats over the past few years have jumped around on these two. I'm not sure how reliable it is to reference last year when we see huge swings like this:

View attachment 9238

Joseph killed it this year across impacts stats, but was bad last year. Ferrell killed it last year across impact stats, but was bad last year. I think any reasonable person would look at this data and say its hard to distinguish who's undoubtedly better. I took a basic average at the bottom for the 3 seasons to give us perhaps a better sense for how these two perhaps perform at their norm. There's not much difference between the two as you can see. Their total impact stats are very close across the board.

I think the other thing to keep in mind when looking at some of the impact stats is that Joseph played 67% of his minutes this year with Sabonis on the floor. Sabonis was a legit MIP candidate this year who went from (per36)...

.567 TS% / .514 FG% / .351 3PT% / .750 FT% / 17.1 PPG / 11.4 RPG / 3.0 APG / 0.8 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 2.7 TOPG

to...

.630 TS% / .590 FG% / .529 3PT% / .715 FT% / 20.4 PPG / 13.5 RPG / 4.2 APG / 0.9 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 3.1 TOPG

I wouldn't be surprised if some of Sabonis impact is rolling into Joseph's metrics this season (especially when we look at how lackluster these metrics were in 2016-17 & 2017-18).

Look I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful to have a better backup PG. I'm just not sure Joseph is going to be leaps & bounds better than Ferrell. The fact that I'm saying that statement while knowing Joseph makes $9.3 mil more per season than Ferrell, makes me cringe at this signing.
Think the biggest issue with Ferrel is he would get abused defensively, which doesn't pair well with Bogi. Joseph being a very strong defender fits better with Bogi.

Plus, i can see both Ferrel and Joseph playing together. Im sure ferrel is going nowhere. Big upgrade on Frank. Injuries will happen
 
#73
Think the biggest issue with Ferrel is he would get abused defensively, which doesn't pair well with Bogi. Joseph being a very strong defender fits better with Bogi.

Plus, i can see both Ferrel and Joseph playing together. Im sure ferrel is going nowhere. Big upgrade on Frank. Injuries will happen
Abused seems rather harsh. He was a very pesky defender and his energy and effort on that side of the ball was undoubtedly high. He’s not a defensive liability against backup PGs. It’s like we’re acting like he’s Isaiah Thomas out there.

Again, I think Joseph is a better defender, but I don’t see him as a huge upgrade overall over Ferrell, and he’s definitely not $9.3 mil better.
 
#74
First off, I'm not sure how Joseph helps as a secondary playmaker but Ferrell doesn't. Why do you think that way when the majority of the stats point towards not only Ferrell being a better offensive player but them being on the same level from an assist & turnover perspective?


The impact stats over the past few years have jumped around on these two. I'm not sure how reliable it is to reference last year when we see huge swings like this:

View attachment 9238

Joseph killed it this year across impacts stats, but was bad last year. Ferrell killed it last year across impact stats, but was bad last year. I think any reasonable person would look at this data and say its hard to distinguish who's undoubtedly better. I took a basic average at the bottom for the 3 seasons to give us perhaps a better sense for how these two perhaps perform at their norm. There's not much difference between the two as you can see. Their total impact stats are very close across the board.

I think the other thing to keep in mind when looking at some of the impact stats is that Joseph played 67% of his minutes this year with Sabonis on the floor. Sabonis was a legit MIP candidate this year who went from (per36)...

.567 TS% / .514 FG% / .351 3PT% / .750 FT% / 17.1 PPG / 11.4 RPG / 3.0 APG / 0.8 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 2.7 TOPG

to...

.630 TS% / .590 FG% / .529 3PT% / .715 FT% / 20.4 PPG / 13.5 RPG / 4.2 APG / 0.9 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 3.1 TOPG

I wouldn't be surprised if some of Sabonis impact is rolling into Joseph's metrics this season (especially when we look at how lackluster these metrics were in 2016-17 & 2017-18).

Look I'm not saying it wouldn't be helpful to have a better backup PG. I'm just not sure Joseph is going to be leaps & bounds better than Ferrell. The fact that I'm saying that statement while knowing Joseph makes $9.3 mil more per season than Ferrell, makes me cringe at this signing.
I get your point and in a vacuum you're paying a lot of money for not a huge uptick in production but we all saw that the Yogi/Bogi pairing did not work last year. Why continue to beat our heads against the wall and run with that again? It killed the momentum in lots of games last year. How often were you watching and couldn't wait until they put Fox back on the court to stop the bleeding? If you were anything like me it was almost on a night to night basis.

Joseph is a slightly better passer, much better defender and a worse shooter. He had an off year shooting last year so if he returns to his career norms then he's easily better than Ferrell because his defense doesn't go away and his advanced stats have been pretty consistent throughout his career. He fills a huge need that the Kings have in perimeter defense. Yogi's skill is a redundant skill in shooting/scoring. We already have a lot of that. Joseph will fit better because his skills help our needs and his weaknesses won't be exploited because we won't have to depend on his offense. Even if he's inefficient, he doesn't shoot enough to kill you in that department because he knows his limitations.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#75
Believe it or not, Willie didn't join the team last year. Try reading my post again and you might grasp the point being made.
"People are giving Ariza a pass for being demotivated simply because he played for Washington/Phoenix, as if we are a top franchise. The same people wouldn't dream of giving Willie a pass for his inconsistent play despite us being just as dysfunctional, if not moreso, than both of those franchises for most of his tenure here." - Dime Dropper

"Most of his tenure"? Just look at the last two years of WCS's wussy, inconsistent, and lazy play. Who gives a crap about his first two years? It's irrelevant. WCS gets absolutely NO PASS WHATSOEVER because of the supposed unstable, disorderly or dysfunctional organization. He's responsible for his own suckiness. Your comparison of the Kings to the Suns and the Wizards has no basis and is gratuitous, only meant to slander the Kings organization and give WCS a weak excuse for his own inadequacies.
 
#76
Abused seems rather harsh. He was a very pesky defender and his energy and effort on that side of the ball was undoubtedly high. He’s not a defensive liability against backup PGs. It’s like we’re acting like he’s Isaiah Thomas out there.

Again, I think Joseph is a better defender, but I don’t see him as a huge upgrade overall over Ferrell, and he’s definitely not $9.3 mil better.
Abused overstates it for sure. To start the year, yogi was a much better defender than i though he would be, but as year went along ibsae more and more often he would be exploited for a good shot...part of this is you can't "hide" both Yogi and Bogs and Yogi would get the harder assignment. Then on offense id say Bogs and Yogi overlap each other quit a bit, relegating 1 to a less effective role.

Joseph and Bogs fit soooo much better on both ends of the floor.

The jump in "outcome" will show up a lot more when comparing the while 2nd unit with Joseph at the og versus Yogi than just comparing individual stats between them.
 
#77
With have our two point guards this season and the third one just maybe be mason until the trade deadline then we should have a idea on which one of the rookies gets his NBA chance. Heck I agree we just may see a trade happen to free up more room and trade for another good big.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#78
The common theme with all these signings is we rewarded these guys with big money contracts, but we got flexibility to get out of the deal in the final year in return. Which, is honestly pretty smart with all our young guys being up for extensions at some point in that time-span. And we had to spend the money this off-season, so getting future flexibility out of overpaying (Barnes decreasing contract, 3 NG contracts) is a good play.
double like
somebody actually gets it
 
#79
I hope the Kings guarantee Yogi's contract. The deadline is July 4th. I think they both bring something different to the table. Yogi is a great shooter who can play off-ball. Joseph is a good ball handler who can facilitate a little bit. I think we were in trouble last year when we forced Bogdanovic to be our primary playmaker. Yogi is much more of an undersized combo guard than he is a PG. I think that's where the discussion ends when talking about our backup PG need.

But as I said, I would love to have Yogi back. He played very good for us last year with all things considered.
 
#81
I hope the Kings guarantee Yogi's contract. The deadline is July 4th. I think they both bring something different to the table. Yogi is a great shooter who can play off-ball. Joseph is a good ball handler who can facilitate a little bit. I think we were in trouble last year when we forced Bogdanovic to be our primary playmaker. Yogi is much more of an undersized combo guard than he is a PG. I think that's where the discussion ends when talking about our backup PG need.

But as I said, I would love to have Yogi back. He played very good for us last year with all things considered.
Yogi is perfect as a depth 5th guard
 
#82
I get your point and in a vacuum you're paying a lot of money for not a huge uptick in production but we all saw that the Yogi/Bogi pairing did not work last year. Why continue to beat our heads against the wall and run with that again? It killed the momentum in lots of games last year. How often were you watching and couldn't wait until they put Fox back on the court to stop the bleeding? If you were anything like me it was almost on a night to night basis.

Joseph is a slightly better passer, much better defender and a worse shooter. He had an off year shooting last year so if he returns to his career norms then he's easily better than Ferrell because his defense doesn't go away and his advanced stats have been pretty consistent throughout his career. He fills a huge need that the Kings have in perimeter defense. Yogi's skill is a redundant skill in shooting/scoring. We already have a lot of that. Joseph will fit better because his skills help our needs and his weaknesses won't be exploited because we won't have to depend on his offense. Even if he's inefficient, he doesn't shoot enough to kill you in that department because he knows his limitations.
I think the fundamental difference here is that most here think we need to get better right at this moment. Whereas I am okay with being patient and building a team long term around our 20 & 21 year old cornerstones (rather than going all in right now).

In regards to Bogdan & Ferrell not working, I'm not sure I'm following. Bogdanovic's best PG pairing last year was with Ferrell:

Ferrell / Bogdan (434 min): 112.0 ORTG / 108.4 DRTG / +3.7 NetRTG
Fox / Bogdan (328 min):
111.8 ORTG / 108.8 DRTG / +3.0 NetRTG
Mason / Bogdan (68 min):
106.6 ORTG / 109.5 DRTG / -2.8 NetRTG

Perhaps you were thinking of his time when paired up with Mason because the stats show that this pairing helped the team last year, and that was during a year where Bogdanovic was struggling. With Bogdan hopefully bouncing back this season, the expectation would have been to grow on that.

As for Joseph, I don't really agree with the passing take. I'm not sure he is better, so I don't see it as being much of a relief for Bogdan in terms of running the offense. They both were most successful last year when they had a gaurd next to them who could handle the rock and run the offense. For Ferrell, his two best guard pairings were Fox & Bogdan, and for Joseph, his two best pairings were with Oladipo, Evans, Collison, & Holiday.

Ferrell / Fox (52 min): 130.4 ORTG / 122.3 DRTG / +8.0 NetRTG
Ferrell / Bogdan (434 min):
112 ORTG / 108.4 DRTG / +3.7 NetRTG
Ferrell / Hield (95 min):
104 ORTG / 110.8 DRTG / -6.8 NetRTG

Joseph / Oladipo (136 min): 114.2 ORTG / 101.6 DRTG / +12.6 NetRTG
Joseph / Holiday (362 min):
109.2 ORTG / 101 DRTG / +8.2 NetRTG
Joseph / Evans (657 min):
109.1 ORTG / 106.1 DRTG / +3.0 NetRTG
Joseph / Collison (257 min):
107.2 ORTG / 105.1 DRTG / +2.1 NetRTG
Joseph / Matthews (172 min):
108 ORTG / 109.2 DRTG / -1.1 NetRTG

Either of Ferrell & Joseph would have that here with Bogdan, so again, I don't the fit is bad. The question I have is why pay $12.3 mil for a backup PG when he's not much of an upgrade over the current PG on the roster?

I don't know why you think his impact stats have been consistent. The most important ones (or the ones I think are best) are RAPM & RPM as they at least try to account for the level of competition and the teammates on the floor with these guys. He's been inconsistent with those and so has Ferrell.
 
#83
The common theme with all these signings is we rewarded these guys with big money contracts, but we got flexibility to get out of the deal in the final year in return. Which, is honestly pretty smart with all our young guys being up for extensions at some point in that time-span. And we had to spend the money this off-season, so getting future flexibility out of overpaying (Barnes decreasing contract, 3 NG contracts) is a good play.
Also makes them attractive trade chips next year.
 
#84
Where are they currently with roster spots and cap space? Looks like they still need one more big. In additional to Kosta, Ty Chandler, Marjanovic, O'Quinn and Ty Zeller are all among the list of unsigned UFAs at this point.
 
#85
Abused overstates it for sure. To start the year, yogi was a much better defender than i though he would be, but as year went along ibsae more and more often he would be exploited for a good shot...part of this is you can't "hide" both Yogi and Bogs and Yogi would get the harder assignment. Then on offense id say Bogs and Yogi overlap each other quit a bit, relegating 1 to a less effective role.

Joseph and Bogs fit soooo much better on both ends of the floor.

The jump in "outcome" will show up a lot more when comparing the while 2nd unit with Joseph at the og versus Yogi than just comparing individual stats between them.
As I've stated before, I like his fit with Bogdan, but I also Ferrell's fit with Bogdan too. I just don't see Joseph as a huge upgrade over Ferrell; therefore, I don't agree with paying him $9.3 mil/year more.

A Ferrell & Bogdan backcourt last year actually helped us:

Ferrell / Bogdan (434 min): 112 ORTG / 108.4 DRTG / +3.7 NetRTG
 
#86
Tyson Chandler still can be effective on defense against the big centers. But Koufos is a known entity. O’Quinn would be a good 5th also but really want someone who can be extremely effective like Chandler when he’s called upon.
 
#88
"People are giving Ariza a pass for being demotivated simply because he played for Washington/Phoenix, as if we are a top franchise. The same people wouldn't dream of giving Willie a pass for his inconsistent play despite us being just as dysfunctional, if not moreso, than both of those franchises for most of his tenure here." - Dime Dropper

"Most of his tenure"? Just look at the last two years of WCS's wussy, inconsistent, and lazy play. Who gives a crap about his first two years? It's irrelevant. WCS gets absolutely NO PASS WHATSOEVER because of the supposed unstable, disorderly or dysfunctional organization. He's responsible for his own suckiness. Your comparison of the Kings to the Suns and the Wizards has no basis and is gratuitous, only meant to slander the Kings organization and give WCS a weak excuse for his own inadequacies.
Dude, stop embarrassing yourself. Slandering the organisation? Get a grip :rolleyes:

You missed the point again. And your hypocrisy knows no bounds, but you're so oblivious to it that spelling it out wouldn't help.
 
#89
I think the fundamental difference here is that most here think we need to get better right at this moment. Whereas I am okay with being patient and building a team long term around our 20 & 21 year old cornerstones (rather than going all in right now).

In regards to Bogdan & Ferrell not working, I'm not sure I'm following. Bogdanovic's best PG pairing last year was with Ferrell:

Ferrell / Bogdan (434 min): 112.0 ORTG / 108.4 DRTG / +3.7 NetRTG
Fox / Bogdan (328 min):
111.8 ORTG / 108.8 DRTG / +3.0 NetRTG
Mason / Bogdan (68 min):
106.6 ORTG / 109.5 DRTG / -2.8 NetRTG

Perhaps you were thinking of his time when paired up with Mason because the stats show that this pairing helped the team last year, and that was during a year where Bogdanovic was struggling. With Bogdan hopefully bouncing back this season, the expectation would have been to grow on that.

As for Joseph, I don't really agree with the passing take. I'm not sure he is better, so I don't see it as being much of a relief for Bogdan in terms of running the offense. They both were most successful last year when they had a gaurd next to them who could handle the rock and run the offense. For Ferrell, his two best guard pairings were Fox & Bogdan, and for Joseph, his two best pairings were with Oladipo, Evans, Collison, & Holiday.

Ferrell / Fox (52 min): 130.4 ORTG / 122.3 DRTG / +8.0 NetRTG
Ferrell / Bogdan (434 min):
112 ORTG / 108.4 DRTG / +3.7 NetRTG
Ferrell / Hield (95 min):
104 ORTG / 110.8 DRTG / -6.8 NetRTG

Joseph / Oladipo (136 min): 114.2 ORTG / 101.6 DRTG / +12.6 NetRTG
Joseph / Holiday (362 min):
109.2 ORTG / 101 DRTG / +8.2 NetRTG
Joseph / Evans (657 min):
109.1 ORTG / 106.1 DRTG / +3.0 NetRTG
Joseph / Collison (257 min):
107.2 ORTG / 105.1 DRTG / +2.1 NetRTG
Joseph / Matthews (172 min):
108 ORTG / 109.2 DRTG / -1.1 NetRTG

Either of Ferrell & Joseph would have that here with Bogdan, so again, I don't the fit is bad. The question I have is why pay $12.3 mil for a backup PG when he's not much of an upgrade over the current PG on the roster?

I don't know why you think his impact stats have been consistent. The most important ones (or the ones I think are best) are RAPM & RPM as they at least try to account for the level of competition and the teammates on the floor with these guys. He's been inconsistent with those and so has Ferrell.
What site are you using for your stats? Seems like we're getting different numbers. NBA.com is showing Yogi/Bogi at a -0.3 net rtg which still isn't as bad as I thought it was. Here are the 2 man lineups that played at least 500 min together. People hate Willie but he was part of most of our best 2 man lineups. Also not that it means a ton but Cory Joseph is in the top 2 lineups if you switch the team over to the Pacers.

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612758&GroupQuantity=2&sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*500

CoJo has had a VORP between 0.5 and 1.0 for like 6 years straight. His defensive box plus/minus in that span is always somewhere between good and very good. The only players on the team with a negative VORP were Ferrell, Koufos, McLemore, Skal and Mason. Ferrell played twice as many minutes as the next closest in Koufos. He had plenty of time to play better and just didn't. He also didn't facilitate very well. So he comes in and it causes Bogie to be the primary handler and now he can't even use his main skill (shooting) as well as he should because he doesn't have a guy that's good enough to pass him open frequently and he doesn't have the skills to get his own shot very often. Top it off with his defense, which like you said, isn't IT or Mason level but it isn't CoJo level either.....and now you have a player who just isn't very effective on this team.

Last year CoJo was something like 4th in DRPM (for point guards) and Ferrell was 88th or so. I just think in our specific situation, he's a better fit. I would have rather had Satoransky at 30mil over 3 years but that didn't happen so I'm ok with Joseph even if he's overpaid. I think it'll show when the season starts and he covers up for a lot of the negatives that Yogi isn't capable of covering.
 
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#90
I am sure that they could get Joseph and Ariza for less, but then it would be fully guaranteed contracts.. this is better, adds flexibility and you are paying them more when money does not mean that much since there is space in cap..

very interesting FA for Kings.. they added depth, instead of giving big money to one or two players..