Kings should trade Bogdan (redux)

#1
I hereby give credit where credit is due.
Buddy has shown us his value since becoming our 6th man.
If we lose Bogi this summer, I will be disappointed. But I can see a scenario in which Bazemore becomes our starter and Buddy remains our first option off the bench.
I'm starting to think we should trade Bogi if teams actually want him.

Think about it, when does he ever string together good games? Earlier in the season he had a good 3 game stretch and then 2 good games in a row shortly after that. Outside of those 5 games, he's either below average or average with a decent game thrown in every 5 games or so. It could be injuries or something else could be going on but this guy is wildly inconsistent.
 
#2
I'm starting to think we should trade Bogi if teams actually want him.

Think about it, when does he ever string together good games? Earlier in the season he had a good 3 game stretch and then 2 good games in a row shortly after that. Outside of those 5 games, he's either below average or average with a decent game thrown in every 5 games or so. It could be injuries or something else could be going on but this guy is wildly inconsistent.
this reads more as if you are saying he is consistently below average / average with several outliers on the upside than as someone who is wildly inconsistent.

most of the time when people talk about Bogdan/Buddy playing well or not they are talking about shooting percentages. if they shoot well people come away thinking they had a good game. if they shoot poorly people's impressions are that they had a bad game. which makes sense cause they are shooting guards. but as such, their shooting percentages for the season are remarkably similar (except for free throws - yikes!). those shooting percentages are not that good (for the expectations) and they can be generated in one of two ways: being consistently meh with outliers or wildly oscilating, but that goes for both players.

all that said, I think Bogdan should be traded. we already commited to Buddy and trading Bogdan would remove the "who is starting not starting issue" from the equation making a step forward in finally establishing a pecking order this team desperately needs in my opinion. that and the possibility Bogdan gets an offer which we cannot match points to the fact that he should be traded.
 
#3
this reads more as if you are saying he is consistently below average / average with several outliers on the upside than as someone who is wildly inconsistent.

most of the time when people talk about Bogdan/Buddy playing well or not they are talking about shooting percentages. if they shoot well people come away thinking they had a good game. if they shoot poorly people's impressions are that they had a bad game. which makes sense cause they are shooting guards. but as such, their shooting percentages for the season are remarkably similar (except for free throws - yikes!). those shooting percentages are not that good (for the expectations) and they can be generated in one of two ways: being consistently meh with outliers or wildly oscilating, but that goes for both players.

all that said, I think Bogdan should be traded. we already commited to Buddy and trading Bogdan would remove the "who is starting not starting issue" from the equation making a step forward in finally establishing a pecking order this team desperately needs in my opinion. that and the possibility Bogdan gets an offer which we cannot match points to the fact that he should be traded.
I guess it comes in context with who the player is. We don't think of Bogdan as a below average to average player who can give you a good game once in a while. We think of him as a guy who should be able to get you 45% FG, 39% 3pt, 4 ast and 15ppg. So he doesn't need to put up Luka numbers in order to help his team win but he still needs to be consistently average to above average with a few outliers that are good and bad in order to be the player that everyone thinks he should be.

In his last 10 games, he's had the same or less points as field goals attempted 4 times. 2 of the games he had 1 more point than field goal attempted. 2 games he had 2 more points than field goals attempted. Then he had 2 outlier games. One he was good and got 22 points on 12 shots and the other bad with 19 points on 28 shots. Basically 8 out of 10 games have been below average to average with one being really bad and one being really good. You're right, that's consistently below average to average but that's not how people think Bogdan should be playing. If you got those numbers out of JJ right now, you'd be happy with it but Bogdan is on a whole different level of expectations than what he's actually achieving.

Fox and Holmes are averaging about 4-5pts more than FGA. Barnes, Hield and Bjelica around 3pts more and everyone else is about 2pts or less, including Bogie. He's consistently been at 2pts more than FGA his 3 years with us. Buddy might wind up being best as a 6th man when all is said and done but I don't think Bogie is our starting SG going forward and I don't think he should be paid like one.

Obviously there's more to it than that one stat but he's not doing enough of anything else to justify the inefficiency. In the end a lot of it comes down to his inability to get to the FT line. It's a team wide problem with everyone other than Fox and Barnes.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#4
I'm starting to think we should trade Bogi if teams actually want him.

Think about it, when does he ever string together good games? Earlier in the season he had a good 3 game stretch and then 2 good games in a row shortly after that. Outside of those 5 games, he's either below average or average with a decent game thrown in every 5 games or so. It could be injuries or something else could be going on but this guy is wildly inconsistent.
First, James Ham said that Bogi is the most asked about player on the Kings, so yes, there are a lot of teams that would love to have Bogi. Yes, he's been inconsistent, and probably the injuries have had a lot to do with that. But lets not take a shot across the bow of Bogi, and totally ignore Buddy. Up until two games ago, most people on this forum, including me, were ready to start a lynch mob to hang Buddy. The Buddy we saw the last two games is the Buddy we gave the big contract to. The Buddy we watched play last season.

You can live with his mistakes when he scores like that, and if it takes him coming off the bench to ignite that fuse, then so be it. I care about one thing. Winning! Personally, I don't want to trade either Buddy or Bogi, and I don't see why, at this point, we need to. However, give me an offer I can't refuse, and.............
 
#5
Trading away our best decision maker while being one of the worst BBIQ teams in the league does not seem like winning basketball. We have a severe shortage of team players.
Bogdan is finally starting again after losing his spot due to getting injured and Buddy exploding. I've been waiting for this for two years! Give it 10 games and if we are much more successful maybe trade Buddy. If not, keep both!
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#6
Trading away our best decision maker while being one of the worst BBIQ teams in the league does not seem like winning basketball. We have a severe shortage of team players.
Bogdan is finally starting again after losing his spot due to getting injured and Buddy exploding. I've been waiting for this for two years! Give it 10 games and if we are much more successful maybe trade Buddy. If not, keep both!
I "liked" your post but then I saw the bolded part.

So if we get better and finally click, trade Buddy? WHY? WHY??? WHY???????
 
#7
I "liked" your post but then I saw the bolded part.

So if we get better and finally click, trade Buddy? WHY? WHY??? WHY???????
How dare you take back a like! lol ok hear me out:

We have to be MUCH better, then we MAYBE trade Buddy. I'll add that if it does work over 10 games, I'd want to see how it plays out through next year, if Buddy is willing to be the 6th man (which he probably won't be).

The reasoning is that if Bogdan is better for us as a starter than Buddy, how can we justify having a 90 million dollar 6th man??
Well, it doesn't matter who starts, it's who finishes. So we bump out Nemanja or Bagley? I guess, but I'd rather have 5 really good players at their respective positions. We can't go small against every team.
We could get a TON of value back from that trade as he is on a team-friendly contract. Perhaps become a better team. I love both players to death, but to me it makes sense if the prerequisites are met.
I'd rather Buddy play like he did last night as a starter, but he just hasn't and lost his starting spot.
 
#9
How dare you take back a like! lol ok hear me out:

We have to be MUCH better, then we MAYBE trade Buddy. I'll add that if it does work over 10 games, I'd want to see how it plays out through next year, if Buddy is willing to be the 6th man (which he probably won't be).

The reasoning is that if Bogdan is better for us as a starter than Buddy, how can we justify having a 90 million dollar 6th man??
Well, it doesn't matter who starts, it's who finishes. So we bump out Nemanja or Bagley? I guess, but I'd rather have 5 really good players at their respective positions. We can't go small against every team.
We could get a TON of value back from that trade as he is on a team-friendly contract. Perhaps become a better team. I love both players to death, but to me it makes sense if the prerequisites are met.
I'd rather Buddy play like he did last night as a starter, but he just hasn't and lost his starting spot.
Manu was always wildly overpaid for a “6th man”. Don’t worry about the label, worry about the role. In Buddy’s current, and proper, role he is delivering value on his contract.
 
#10
Manu was always wildly overpaid for a “6th man”. Don’t worry about the label, worry about the role. In Buddy’s current, and proper, role he is delivering value on his contract.
Ginobili was at 6 years for 52 million. For the time it was a lot, but still a far cry from Buddy's current contract. But I agree with your point.
I'd love for him to be a 6th man if he just can't find a way to click with Fox. Question is whether or not he is willing to come off the bench. It will never sit right with him.
 
#11
Right now they have to lean towards trading Bogdan. They can't afford to let him walk for nothing and the necessary work by the coaching staff to make sense of the roster hasn't happened. If anything, it's been an utter disaster and now unfortunately time is up. Also, Buddy isn't a 6th man. It's all usage. The Kings are looking for more of a functional role player type at the starting SG, and it's no wonder that now Bogdan is disappearing as well in that same role. That's an easy fix. But so is playing small when needed and that only seems to happen when the molehill has become a mountain.
 
#12
I guess it comes in context with who the player is. We don't think of Bogdan as a below average to average player who can give you a good game once in a while. We think of him as a guy who should be able to get you 45% FG, 39% 3pt, 4 ast and 15ppg. So he doesn't need to put up Luka numbers in order to help his team win but he still needs to be consistently average to above average with a few outliers that are good and bad in order to be the player that everyone thinks he should be.

In his last 10 games, he's had the same or less points as field goals attempted 4 times. 2 of the games he had 1 more point than field goal attempted. 2 games he had 2 more points than field goals attempted. Then he had 2 outlier games. One he was good and got 22 points on 12 shots and the other bad with 19 points on 28 shots. Basically 8 out of 10 games have been below average to average with one being really bad and one being really good. You're right, that's consistently below average to average but that's not how people think Bogdan should be playing. If you got those numbers out of JJ right now, you'd be happy with it but Bogdan is on a whole different level of expectations than what he's actually achieving.

Fox and Holmes are averaging about 4-5pts more than FGA. Barnes, Hield and Bjelica around 3pts more and everyone else is about 2pts or less, including Bogie. He's consistently been at 2pts more than FGA his 3 years with us. Buddy might wind up being best as a 6th man when all is said and done but I don't think Bogie is our starting SG going forward and I don't think he should be paid like one.

Obviously there's more to it than that one stat but he's not doing enough of anything else to justify the inefficiency. In the end a lot of it comes down to his inability to get to the FT line. It's a team wide problem with everyone other than Fox and Barnes.
Thats why I said they should trade him before the deadline for another need. Bogdan and Bjelica are probably the only players that we are willing to trade that can bring in value. Fox, Bagley, and Holmes are off limits. Barnes and Hield are now paid with Sacramento tax included and would be hard to move for equivalent value. Cojo/Dedmon/Giles/The Rookies/ are probably not going to get anything in return. That leaves Bogdan and Bjelica as the only tradeable players that can return value.
 
#13
First, James Ham said that Bogi is the most asked about player on the Kings, so yes, there are a lot of teams that would love to have Bogi. Yes, he's been inconsistent, and probably the injuries have had a lot to do with that. But lets not take a shot across the bow of Bogi, and totally ignore Buddy. Up until two games ago, most people on this forum, including me, were ready to start a lynch mob to hang Buddy. The Buddy we saw the last two games is the Buddy we gave the big contract to. The Buddy we watched play last season.

You can live with his mistakes when he scores like that, and if it takes him coming off the bench to ignite that fuse, then so be it. I care about one thing. Winning! Personally, I don't want to trade either Buddy or Bogi, and I don't see why, at this point, we need to. However, give me an offer I can't refuse, and.............
I've complained a lot about Buddy but I've kinda come around on it lately seeing how he's been misused by the coach. Buddy and Bogdan have had semi equal seasons this year and that's with Buddy's weaknesses being forced upon himself and the team by Luke. Last year Buddy was by far and away the better player.

Bogdan has had 3 years and essentially 3 different systems to show what he's worth and so far he's been underwhelming. He's not bad but he's not really helping the team a whole lot either. He's just kind of existing in this realm where his play kinda drags the team down a little bit many nights but it never really kills them like a bad Buddy game can. The problem is that he hardly ever really puts in the kind of effort where you can say he's the best or second best player on the court either. He may do better in a more structured offense but I just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel with him anymore. Throw in the injury concerns and I'd trade him if the offer was good enough.

Thats why I said they should trade him before the deadline for another need. Bogdan and Bjelica are probably the only players that we are willing to trade that can bring in value. Fox, Bagley, and Holmes are off limits. Barnes and Hield are now paid with Sacramento tax included and would be hard to move for equivalent value. Cojo/Dedmon/Giles/The Rookies/ are probably not going to get anything in return. That leaves Bogdan and Bjelica as the only tradeable players that can return value.
What worries me is Vlade is the GM and he's not going to flip our guys for future assets like draft picks or anything that hints at a rebuild. So they'll probably be flipped for other similar type players or veterans to help the team "win now", which will just keep the team in the same old purgatory they've been in for seemingly forever.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#15
Ginobili was at 6 years for 52 million. For the time it was a lot, but still a far cry from Buddy's current contract. But I agree with your point.
I'd love for him to be a 6th man if he just can't find a way to click with Fox. Question is whether or not he is willing to come off the bench. It will never sit right with him.
I think you're assuming facts not in evidence. After last night, we're gonna see a different Buddy. He became REAL last night; he proved to himself what he's capable of.

Remember, it's who's on the court at the end that matters - not who stands.
 
#16
Trading away our best decision maker while being one of the worst BBIQ teams in the league does not seem like winning basketball. We have a severe shortage of team players.
Bogdan is finally starting again after losing his spot due to getting injured and Buddy exploding. I've been waiting for this for two years! Give it 10 games and if we are much more successful maybe trade Buddy. If not, keep both!
Bjelica and even Fox now days are far superior decision makers, rookie Bogi was a beast solid player post game winning Lakers 3 pointer is the lowest IQ player on the team and the guy looks like he need a year off just to be able to run freely.

I would offer Bogi/Dedmon/Bjelica ( good fits for Zion) for Jrue Holiday/filler and play Fox/Holiday with Buddy off the bench (I originally wanted Brogdan for this role). Fox (if he decides to be a consistant defender) and Holiday can cause havoc and all 3 of them can play together, Holiday also gives us another guy who can get to the rim as good if not better than Fox.
 
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#17
Ginobili was at 6 years for 52 million. For the time it was a lot, but still a far cry from Buddy's current contract. But I agree with your point.
I'd love for him to be a 6th man if he just can't find a way to click with Fox. Question is whether or not he is willing to come off the bench. It will never sit right with him.
He did fine with Fox last year, and while we're talking 6th man it should still be noted that Buddy has been playing large minutes nonetheless, together with Fox etc too (albeit in a small sample size of 2 games), so really what we're saying is don't have him on the floor in the first 6 mins of q1 and 3. If you don't intend to have him in to close out games then trade him - you shouldn't be paying 20mil for a guy you're not relying on in crunch time.

Has anyone actually "clicked" with Fox this year though? If I'm being honest Fox has played a lot more like a 6th man scorer this year than a star PG. When he scores it's typically him going to the rim full speed attempting a layup or getting fouled - barely anyone else touches the ball on those possessions. His poor shooting also means he's rarely converting when the ball is swung around to get him an open shot. He has somehow gotten some games with lots of assists but I would not characterize him as "running the offense" effectively. This is what I mean by nobody has really clicked with him (at least from a guard/wing position) - how often have you actually seen Fox create open shots for anybody playing at the 2/3? Fox seems to be more Westbrook than Liliard/Curry/Wall.
Maybe I need to watch more of Westbrook to get an idea of who would fit around Fox.

Then again with all the injuries and Walton's schemes I'm still not sure what our offense is meant to be exactly...
 
#18
Ginobili was at 6 years for 52 million. For the time it was a lot, but still a far cry from Buddy's current contract. But I agree with your point.
I'd love for him to be a 6th man if he just can't find a way to click with Fox. Question is whether or not he is willing to come off the bench. It will never sit right with him.
If you go by percentage of the lux cap tax line they are both around 17%. You can't compare a $70 million lux tax cap with a $150 million.
 
#19
I think you're assuming facts not in evidence. After last night, we're gonna see a different Buddy. He became REAL last night; he proved to himself what he's capable of.

Remember, it's who's on the court at the end that matters - not who stands.
To ur first point ya, I'm assuming he won't be cool with coming off the bench for his career in sac and I'd bet you a million bucks on it. 2nd point I addressed already- Bogi and Buddy are a bit undersized as a wing duo for too many teams.
 
#20
I understand we could lose Bogdan at the end of the season so yeah perhaps best to trade him now, however, I’m not hearing any trade idea that makes us better.
The idea of picks underwhelms with this management. A package with Bogdan to unload Dedmon?, that’s frustrating. I would like to hear some realistic moves that make us better.
looking closer I see jellyfish did make a trade proposal with NO. perhaps thats a decent move.
 
#21
I understand we could lose Bogdan at the end of the season so yeah perhaps best to trade him now, however, I’m not hearing any trade idea that makes us better.
The idea of picks underwhelms with this management. A package with Bogdan to unload Dedmon?, that’s frustrating. I would like to hear some realistic moves that make us better.
looking closer I see jellyfish did make a trade proposal with NO. perhaps thats a decent move.
The Kings only lose him if they choose too. He's a restricted free agent.
 
#22
Has anyone actually "clicked" with Fox this year though? If I'm being honest Fox has played a lot more like a 6th man scorer this year than a star PG. When he scores it's typically him going to the rim full speed attempting a layup or getting fouled - barely anyone else touches the ball on those possessions. His poor shooting also means he's rarely converting when the ball is swung around to get him an open shot. He has somehow gotten some games with lots of assists but I would not characterize him as "running the offense" effectively. This is what I mean by nobody has really clicked with him (at least from a guard/wing position) - how often have you actually seen Fox create open shots for anybody playing at the 2/3? Fox seems to be more Westbrook than Liliard/Curry/Wall.
Maybe I need to watch more of Westbrook to get an idea of who would fit around Fox.
You mean after they miss open shots on his assists and they team hasn't scored in 3 mins?
 
#23
The Kings only lose him if they choose too. He's a restricted free agent.
yeah, I get the idea most think he will walk for a better offer than the Kings will match. I’m not convinced he will get a great offer considering his inability to stay healthy and inconsistency.
I really like Bogdan but confused as hell as to what’s the best thing to do with him.
 
#24
You mean after they miss open shots on his assists and they team hasn't scored in 3 mins?
Well one could argue that the very fact the team hasn't scored in 3 minutes is evidence enough that the offense isn't being run well. You could blame Walton, which I alluded to as well.

i don't buy the missing shots on assists argument. That happens to every team, and to begin with I'm not even seeing these open shots that Fox creates which are being missed. I can't even recall the last time I saw Fox drive and kick rather than try to score/get fouled. And that's not a knock on Fox as a player, it's a knock on him as a floor general. It just means at some point you have to build around how he's going to play/be played. He's again gone away from the midrange pullups and his 3 point shooting lately has been pretty bad. If that's going to continue you need to build around it and ensure your offense is designed with those limitations in mind.
 
#25
The Kings only lose him if they choose too. He's a restricted free agent.
And hopefully no one will make him an incredible offer that we can't match without compromising our ability to keep our core together. Sort of like what we did to Chicago with our incredible offer of a zillion dollars for Zach LaVine. At some point a team has to ask, are we better off letting him walk?
 
#26
Divac making room for Bogdan?

You'll only be able to read this article if you use Google Translate :)

Anyhow, the Serbian media is speculating that Divac's last trade was made exactly because he wants to keep Bogdan on the Kings and this way, he'll have more money to offer him by the end of the summer. Knowing that Divac is personally in love with Bogdan, I doubt he'd go ahead and trade him... unless Bogdan asks him to.
 
#27
Bogdan is likeable. He has that steely resolve and can score in bunches.
I think his feet are too slow to be much on defense. Not his fault.
I would trade him for a large human that can play.
 
#28
If we were actually in the playoff race before the deadline we would be making small fill in pieces to strengthen our roster.
But we aren’t really in that position and if we get some really good offers for anybody not named fox, Bagley, Buddy or Holmes and it improved our roster go for it.

It really bothers me that we cannot win with this roster as we actually have a lot of players that other teams really want that are not our core. I really think we have built a decent team with maybe a couple of future stars and like a lot of us it’s frustrating with our injuries and setbacks that we are floundering at best but it’s not the time to blowup the roster.

Making moves that are in our favor I am all for that.