KINGS PICKING 4TH IN 2022 NBA DRAFT!

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24 rick barry said:
To quote Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."
Team defensive rating at nba.com
20-21 30th place out of the 30 teams.
21-22 27th place.

I see that Mitch Kupchak also was closing in on the end of his contract this summer and was extended last week.

I think the Kings, extended Vlade, early-like in April 2019 making the Kings extend through 22-23. Remember that 39 game winning season under Joerger with Vlade as GM. Then, how did that one work out.

Monte has another year at the helm of this team. I argue, let us see what the team does and what it looks like, during the 22-23 season before an extension. Evaluate during the season, to see if the team looks promising, more wins, etc and make a decison. If the team does well, you might have to pay up for Monte. If not, you can easily move on.

For the Kings, it seems that you fire a guy after 2 or 3 years, but you pay the guy for 4 or 5 years.

And it looks to me at present, the Kings continue to pay Vlade, Walton, and Gentry...after their services are no longer desired.

Does this make sense to you?

And by the way, I am certainly not a Monte "hater"...I don't even know why people would use this word in context to possibly extending Monte. Of course, I want the Kings to be sucessfull. I understand the hopes, and also, realize the hype. However, I want to see the W's before I would extend.
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I think this is a reasonable assessment, and I say this as a Monte fan. Monte was not dealt the best of hands, and did have some bad luck (the failed Bogdan/Buddy trades, which were largely not his fault). At the end of it, what matters is what the record says.

Clearly, he came in with a mandate to try and make the PO, so a full scale house cleaning was not really an option. How much did that impact his desire/ability to trade folks like Barnes, Holmes or Bagley will never really be known. I am not saying these folks should have been traded for pennies on the dollar, but in the absence of any information, we have no idea if he tried to trade them and if the market was cold, or if he thought they could increase their value.

He has a decent draft record, and has not made any BAD moves, which is equally important. Jury is still out on Davion, though the end of the season was quite promising.

One constant issue is that we don't seem to be able to find value picks. Most other teams, particularly the good ones, will have low draft picks, players signed on the cheap, throw ins from trades, suddenly flourish, and help the team consistently. We probably haven't had a second round success since IT (please correct me if I am wrong). Most of our FAs have played below their historical (and contract) value. Holmes is the only player I can think of who has outperformed expectations when we brought him in. Barnes has been solid, but I think we expected that of him. TD might still make a case, but we have to see a larger sample.

A lot of it happened before Monte took over, so it's not all on him. Perhaps it's the organization, or Luke over the last few years, or something else. I don't know. When we were good though, we consistently found great players with low picks (Peja, Hedo, GW, Martin, even Cisco. Including Peja here, even though he was a lottery pick, but pretty late lottery). Was it drafting, the coaching staff, or the general organization then that allowed these players to flourish? Perhaps a little bit of everything. Point being, it might not all be Monte, but he's the one who gets the credit/blame.
 
hrdboild said:
Which assets has he let walk?
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We lost Bogdan for nothing, though I don't blame Monte for that. He did try a deal for him. Matching the offer and then trading him/Buddy was always going to be a challenge.

We also lost Ramsey and Woodard. I understand that losing 2nd round picks for nothing is common, but I was really hoping that Ramsey will find place in the rotation. Given the fact that Monte traded Tillman, who is playing (not a lot, but still) for a winning Memphis team doesn't help.
 
kingsfan101 said:
We lost Bogdan for nothing, though I don't blame Monte for that. He did try a deal for him. Matching the offer and then trading him/Buddy was always going to be a challenge.

We also lost Ramsey and Woodard. I understand that losing 2nd round picks for nothing is common, but I was really hoping that Ramsey will find place in the rotation. Given the fact that Monte traded Tillman, who is playing (not a lot, but still) for a winning Memphis team doesn't help.
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Monte not bringing back Bogdan at that price was probably one of the best moves any Kings GM has made in a decade +.
 
The_Jamal said:
Who said this?

McNair is the best GM the Kings have had in 15 years. Easily, don't think it's even close. That's the comparison ladder most of us care about. No one knows if he builds a long-term winner, but it can't be disputed that he's the first GM to actually give the Kings a chance at developing a winner. That should be given a real chance to be played out with new hire Brown.
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To me- the comparison ladder is not of past GM's for the Kings, but looking to have the best GM in the NBA now.
 
hrdboild said:
Well, I'm on the extreme end here because I think he's the best player in the draft but I'll give you my take anyway. His ceiling to me is something like a Klay Thompson or Devin Booker -- not so much in playstyle but as wing players who you pencil in to the All Star team every year so long as they're healthy. It's possible he never improves his defense, ballhandling, or playmaking and still makes a living as a spot-up shooter and occasional target for lobs at the rim. So I would describe his floor as someone like Terrance Ross perhaps?

EDIT: Here's a pretty good overview video of his general strengths and weaknesses.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you. Mathurin is the exact type of player I would want to pair in the backcourt with Fox.
 
hrdboild said:
Well, I'm on the extreme end here because I think he's the best player in the draft but I'll give you my take anyway. His ceiling to me is something like a Klay Thompson or Devin Booker -- not so much in playstyle but as wing players who you pencil in to the All Star team every year so long as they're healthy. It's possible he never improves his defense, ballhandling, or playmaking and still makes a living as a spot-up shooter and occasional target for lobs at the rim. So I would describe his floor as someone like Terrance Ross perhaps?

EDIT: Here's a pretty good overview video of his general strengths and weaknesses.

Click to expand...


Barring a trade up, he's the guy I see fitting with the team the most. Great shooter, athleticism, and defensive upside. We need a catch and shoot player badly, so like you said if his handles never improved at least you would have that. Speaking of Ross, he might be the most gettable wing out there.
 
kingsfan101 said:
A lot of it happened before Monte took over, so it's not all on him. Perhaps it's the organization, or Luke over the last few years, or something else. I don't know. When we were good though, we consistently found great players with low picks (Peja, Hedo, GW, Martin, even Cisco. Including Peja here, even though he was a lottery pick, but pretty late lottery). Was it drafting, the coaching staff, or the general organization then that allowed these players to flourish? Perhaps a little bit of everything. Point being, it might not all be Monte, but he's the one who gets the credit/blame.
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Simple really. Rick Adelman working with Geoff Petrie, were a lot better at evaluating players
 
kingsfan101 said:
We lost Bogdan for nothing, though I don't blame Monte for that. He did try a deal for him. Matching the offer and then trading him/Buddy was always going to be a challenge.

We also lost Ramsey and Woodard. I understand that losing 2nd round picks for nothing is common, but I was really hoping that Ramsey will find place in the rotation. Given the fact that Monte traded Tillman, who is playing (not a lot, but still) for a winning Memphis team doesn't help.
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I'm still not over losing Gerald Wallace for nothing.
 
kingsfan101 said:
We lost Bogdan for nothing, though I don't blame Monte for that. He did try a deal for him. Matching the offer and then trading him/Buddy was always going to be a challenge.

We also lost Ramsey and Woodard. I understand that losing 2nd round picks for nothing is common, but I was really hoping that Ramsey will find place in the rotation. Given the fact that Monte traded Tillman, who is playing (not a lot, but still) for a winning Memphis team doesn't help.
Click to expand...

He didn't just try to trade Bogdan, he did trade him. That was 100% a done deal agreed to by all three parties (Kings, Bucks, Bogdan) only Milwaukee's GM didn't observe the unspoken rules of keeping your damn mouth shut on the top-secret, technically illegal, prior to free agency hand-shake arrangement (that every other team in the league also does) and so the league office had no choice but to nullify it.

My argument about Ramsey and Woodard is that second round picks do not qualify as assets. Both of those guys had two years to show any team in the league that they deserved a second contract and they didn't do that. And the same is true for the majority of second round picks, so no harm no foul. Teams basically give those picks away for free knowing that they're lottery tickets at best.

Pretty much everyone else of note that I can think of who has played for the Kings in Monte's tenure and then gone elsewhere has been traded. He did retain Fox and Holmes and most (or is it all?) of the people who want Monte fired are citing those deals as mistakes so I guess he just can't win for some people. He both doesn't get credit for Haliburton "falling" to the 12th pick and then is enemy no. 1 for trading the future of the franchise in his second season. You just have to throw up your hands at some point and just let people be angry at the clouds if they want to.
 
kingsfan101 said:
I think this is a reasonable assessment, and I say this as a Monte fan. Monte was not dealt the best of hands, and did have some bad luck (the failed Bogdan/Buddy trades, which were largely not his fault). At the end of it, what matters is what the record says.

Clearly, he came in with a mandate to try and make the PO, so a full scale house cleaning was not really an option. How much did that impact his desire/ability to trade folks like Barnes, Holmes or Bagley will never really be known. I am not saying these folks should have been traded for pennies on the dollar, but in the absence of any information, we have no idea if he tried to trade them and if the market was cold, or if he thought they could increase their value.

He has a decent draft record, and has not made any BAD moves, which is equally important. Jury is still out on Davion, though the end of the season was quite promising.

One constant issue is that we don't seem to be able to find value picks. Most other teams, particularly the good ones, will have low draft picks, players signed on the cheap, throw ins from trades, suddenly flourish, and help the team consistently. We probably haven't had a second round success since IT (please correct me if I am wrong). Most of our FAs have played below their historical (and contract) value. Holmes is the only player I can think of who has outperformed expectations when we brought him in. Barnes has been solid, but I think we expected that of him. TD might still make a case, but we have to see a larger sample.

A lot of it happened before Monte took over, so it's not all on him. Perhaps it's the organization, or Luke over the last few years, or something else. I don't know. When we were good though, we consistently found great players with low picks (Peja, Hedo, GW, Martin, even Cisco. Including Peja here, even though he was a lottery pick, but pretty late lottery). Was it drafting, the coaching staff, or the general organization then that allowed these players to flourish? Perhaps a little bit of everything. Point being, it might not all be Monte, but he's the one who gets the credit/blame.
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An absolute necessity. Monte is 0-3 with his second round picks. Two of the three were relatively high seconds too. And he traded away two seconds to salary dump Joseph. That’s a failure to find a productive asset from 5 second round picks.
 
hrdboild said:
He didn't just try to trade Bogdan, he did trade him. That was 100% a done deal agreed to by all three parties (Kings, Bucks, Bogdan) only Milwaukee's GM didn't observe the unspoken rules of keeping your damn mouth shut on the top-secret, technically illegal, prior to free agency hand-shake arrangement (that every other team in the league also does) and so the league office had no choice but to nullify it.

My argument about Ramsey and Woodard is that second round picks do not qualify as assets. Both of those guys had two years to show any team in the league that they deserved a second contract and they didn't do that. And the same is true for the majority of second round picks, so no harm no foul. Teams basically give those picks away for free knowing that they're lottery tickets at best.

Pretty much everyone else of note that I can think of who has played for the Kings in Monte's tenure and then gone elsewhere has been traded. He did retain Fox and Holmes and most (or is it all?) of the people who want Monte fired are citing those deals as mistakes so I guess he just can't win for some people. He both doesn't get credit for Haliburton "falling" to the 12th pick and then is enemy no. 1 for trading the future of the franchise in his second season. You just have to throw up your hands at some point and just let people be angry at the clouds if they want to.
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I mean, teams pay millions to buy second round picks, so unless they’re laundering money between teams, your statement is wrong.
 
hrdboild said:
He didn't just try to trade Bogdan, he did trade him. That was 100% a done deal agreed to by all three parties (Kings, Bucks, Bogdan) only Milwaukee's GM didn't observe the unspoken rules of keeping your damn mouth shut on the top-secret, technically illegal, prior to free agency hand-shake arrangement (that every other team in the league also does) and so the league office had no choice but to nullify it.

My argument about Ramsey and Woodard is that second round picks do not qualify as assets. Both of those guys had two years to show any team in the league that they deserved a second contract and they didn't do that. And the same is true for the majority of second round picks, so no harm no foul. Teams basically give those picks away for free knowing that they're lottery tickets at best.

Pretty much everyone else of note that I can think of who has played for the Kings in Monte's tenure and then gone elsewhere has been traded. He did retain Fox and Holmes and most (or is it all?) of the people who want Monte fired are citing those deals as mistakes so I guess he just can't win for some people. He both doesn't get credit for Haliburton "falling" to the 12th pick and then is enemy no. 1 for trading the future of the franchise in his second season. You just have to throw up your hands at some point and just let people be angry at the clouds if they want to.
Click to expand...
 
Example-"And it looks to me at present, the Kings continue to pay Vlade, Walton, and Gentry...after their services are no longer desired."

I'm not hearing the drumbeat here, to fire Monte.

However, I'm envisioning a wait and see approach-as Monte's current contract ends in the summer of 2022 2023.
 
Shot doctor here, gloved up for an invasive procedure! Assuming the way he shoots these practice shots is the way he shoots in-game, his motion is mostly fine; he is shooting all in one continuous motion with no real hitches. His release is a little low, he is shooting the ball forward a little too much as opposed to upward. He uses his legs, but not quite enough, meaning he is arming the ball up more than what is ideal. He is also taking his eye off the basket after releasing the ball, tracking the ball to the basket with his eyes after releasing the shot. It is best to stare at the basket from the time the ball is released until the shot goes in or misses. Lastly, he should leave his follow-through up longer. Biggest problems being that he takes his eyes off the basket after releasing the shot, and he is using a little too much arm to get the ball to the basket.

The_Jamal said:

Any shot doctors on the form?
Click to expand...
 
Chupacabra said:
Shot doctor here, gloved up for an invasive procedure! Assuming the way he shoots these practice shots is the way he shoots in-game, his motion is mostly fine; he is shooting all in one continuous motion with no real hitches. His release is a little low, he is shooting the ball forward a little too much as opposed to upward. He uses his legs, but not quite enough, meaning he is arming the ball up more than what is ideal. He is also taking his eye off the basket after releasing the ball, tracking the ball to the basket with his eyes after releasing the shot. It is best to stare at the basket from the time the ball is released until the shot goes in or misses. Lastly, he should leave his follow-through up longer. Biggest problems being that he takes his eyes off the basket after releasing the shot, and he is using a little too much arm to get the ball to the basket.
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Great stuff. My guess is Daniels has been shooting the lights out in workouts and that's why he's skyrocketing up draft boards. If teams think he becomes (or already has?) an effective shooter, he's pretty easily a top 4 talent in this class.
 
Looks like the Dyson Daniels talk is really picking up with the board. I'm not sure why, but the GLeague website split his stats into two separate sections, one for the showcase, and the other for the GLeague Ignite Tour. It makes a lot more sense to view all of the sample size we have. Here are his combined stats through 29 games:

  • 12.6pts 6.8rebs 4.7asts 2stls 0.7blks 2.7tos
  • 45.3% FG
  • 30.0% 3PT (3.4attempts/game)
  • 53.3% FT (1.6attempts/game)

source: https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dyson-Daniels/GameLogs/151792
 
hrdboild said:
He didn't just try to trade Bogdan, he did trade him. That was 100% a done deal agreed to by all three parties (Kings, Bucks, Bogdan) only Milwaukee's GM didn't observe the unspoken rules of keeping your damn mouth shut on the top-secret, technically illegal, prior to free agency hand-shake arrangement (that every other team in the league also does) and so the league office had no choice but to nullify it.

My argument about Ramsey and Woodard is that second round picks do not qualify as assets. Both of those guys had two years to show any team in the league that they deserved a second contract and they didn't do that. And the same is true for the majority of second round picks, so no harm no foul. Teams basically give those picks away for free knowing that they're lottery tickets at best.

Pretty much everyone else of note that I can think of who has played for the Kings in Monte's tenure and then gone elsewhere has been traded. He did retain Fox and Holmes and most (or is it all?) of the people who want Monte fired are citing those deals as mistakes so I guess he just can't win for some people. He both doesn't get credit for Haliburton "falling" to the 12th pick and then is enemy no. 1 for trading the future of the franchise in his second season. You just have to throw up your hands at some point and just let people be angry at the clouds if they want to.
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Actually he didn’t trade Bogdan as the “deal” wasn’t agreed to by Bogdan who stated he an article I read he was shocked and surprised by the move. Monte also over paid Fox so he is now untradeable forcing us to move Hali. The 5 second round picks have been discussed but building a roster of centers and 6’3” guards has not.

That said the constant staggering of coaches and GM’s just leads to the perception of organizational chaos and limits the quality of people who apply.
 
sactowndog said:
Actually he didn’t trade Bogdan as the “deal” wasn’t agreed to by Bogdan who stated he an article I read he was shocked and surprised by the move. Monte also over paid Fox so he is now untradeable forcing us to move Hali. The 5 second round picks have been discussed but building a roster of centers and 6’3” guards has not.

That said the constant staggering of coaches and GM’s just leads to the perception of organizational chaos and limits the quality of people who apply.
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Bogdan wasn't allowed to negotiate with Milwaukee while he was under contract with Sacramento but he could negotiate with the Kings on his salary expectations for a new contract. If you believe he was truly blindsided and had no idea a trade was even being discussed with Milwaukee that would mean that Monte spent 13 years in the Houston front office and somehow didn't understand how a sign and trade works. Believe what you want but I find that idea absurd. I do believe he (Bogdan) was blindsided when Woj reported a "done deal" 3 days before the start of free agency but only because such a report ended any chance he had of signing with Milwaukee.

The Fox extension was the max. He wasn't going to agree to anything less than that so the alternatives were to lose him for nothing, trade him during his fourth season, or try to engineer a sign and trade once he reached restricted status.

And no, the 5 second round picks have not been "discussed". Monte has had two drafts. In 2020 he had three picks in the second round and traded down 5 spots to add a 2022 second round pick, drafted Woodard and Ramsey, and traded the third pick for a 2021 second round pick. Then at the trade deadline he traded two of his 2021 second round picks - - one for Terance Davis and the other in the Corey Joseph for Delon Wright deal. That left him with one second round pick in 2021 which he used on Neemias Queta. I'm not going to get into which future second round picks were acquired or are still owed but the result is that Monte has drafted 3 players in the second round and one of them has only played 120 NBA minutes so far.
 
Sac.Kings said:
Shouldn’t be drafting any guards that can’t shoot at a respectable level. Setting yourself up for failure when you have Fox as your lead guard. You have to surround him with guys that can shoot or else all the teams will just huddle in the paint and make driving to the hoop tough.
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we had trash shooting after the Sabonis trade and he still got buckets. Getting even one more good shooter will help so much
 
re: 2nd round picks, Monte has been operating with a playoffs at all costs directive his entire tenure with the club.

Vlade for some unknown reason chose to load up on 2nd round picks instead of playable assets. The team does not have the luxury to pick 2+ players every year and stash them in Stockton. They had to cut those guys to bring on NBA talent. It sucks, but that's just how the roster rules work. It was a failure of Vlade's that Monte is doing his best with working under the expectations to get this team to the postseason ASAP.
 
I’m taking the Dyson Daniels talk as just smoke screen stuff. He may be a solid prospect but the other guys in play at 4 are som much better and to trade down we would need an extremely good piece to do so and not just a role player and lower pick.

I can’t believe there is still talk here trying to spin Monte as being inept. Embarrassing.
 
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