That doesn't prove he can play, it just proves he can be coached. Fredette can be coached; he can't play, either.
And I'm not the one setting up the straw man of McLemore being a future All-Star; you may have me confused with somebody else.
Kings pick up option on G Ben McLemore (The Associated Press)
And I'm not the one setting up the straw man of McLemore being a future All-Star; you may have me confused with somebody else.
No, it didn't. You might want to try going back and reading for comprehension next time. You'll find relatively little praise of Jason Thompson in my "defense" of Jason Thompson. I was very consistently anti-Landry, anti-Acy and, for the most part, anti-Evans. To the extent that I 'defended' Thompson, it had less to do with my esteem for Thompson, and more to do with my lack of esteem for the dogpile-y nature of how this message board talked about him. Even scrubs like McLemore have their fans, but Thompson was the designated whipping boy at the time, and he was the guy whom everybody around here felt it was okay to slag on. I found that off-putting.
And now, I find this off-putting. I dislike the "your turn in the box, kid" pack mentality that tends to happen around here.
KingsFanGER
Starter
I understand where you are coming from. But right now we already have 3 creative, ball dominant players in our potential starting 5. And we have 2 guys, that can create offense out of the pick&roll and off the dribble on the bench.
What we don't have right now is an above average athletic defender for the wing positions. So adding a player that can fill that need, makes a lot of sense. But in order to have space for Cuz, Rudy and Rajon to work in, we need someone able to hit 3's aswell.
Of course in an ideal world said player, would be able to create for himself. But SG's, that fit that profile are extremely rare and valuable. You won't get guys like DeRozan or even Wes Matthews. So adding a 3&D player actually looks like the best way for our roster. This is why I don't understand all the "hate" on Ben. In theory he is exactly the type of player, that complements our roster and he isn't far off, of the potential trade targets I listed. Of course Ben needs to hit shots consistently. And he needs to improve on the defensive end. But luckily we are not so dependant on him. If he isn't hitting his 3's, we simply sub in Marco and still get some decent production from the SG-spot.
In general the evolution of 3&D players has the same reasons as the evolution of stretch-bigs. In an environment where most shots are created by pick&rolls one of the most effective ways to help your team is the "Do simple things better" approach: Run, move the ball, defend, hit open shots!
When a player is getting starter minutes and he is not producing, then fans tend to look for answers or be critical. Ben can help himself with better production. I felt like he improved last year in several areas.......but right now, this team is realistically looking to take a step,towards the playoffs, Ben has to be better or else he sits and Anderson, to this point, appears like a better option. More of a knock against Ben than anything but the chatter saying inferring Anderson is less than an NBA player is a little over the top.
You can look at this history of the players but you have to look at Summer League and preseason as that is all we have to go on so far. Anderson has been better than Ben.....that is a fact. Anderson could be cut tomorrow but it doesn't change the fact that he's been better. If Ben continues to have subpar outings or cost the team, the chatter is only going to get stronger. If Ben shows some consistency with the 3 and defense and good solid play, then this talk goes away.
You can look at this history of the players but you have to look at Summer League and preseason as that is all we have to go on so far. Anderson has been better than Ben.....that is a fact. Anderson could be cut tomorrow but it doesn't change the fact that he's been better. If Ben continues to have subpar outings or cost the team, the chatter is only going to get stronger. If Ben shows some consistency with the 3 and defense and good solid play, then this talk goes away.
Livinthedream
All-Star
No, it is not a fact that Anderson is better than Ben.
No, we do not have to count summer league and preseason games. Not sure I want to explain again why these don't matter.
All players miss open 3s. If someone isn't open, then they shouldn't be taking the 3. Contested 3s are poor shots. I always find it amusing when we bemoan Ben for missing an open 3, as if it is akin to missing a layup. A 37 - 38% 3pt shooter is good. A 40+% 3pt shooter is outstanding. Ben is at that good level right now based on the regular season average.
As far as Andersons play in the preason, I made the observation in a game thread that he wasn't being guarded very tight. Almost ignored by the opposing team. Being given the 3pt shot. This was not disputed, but agreed with. We get excited when a journeyman desperate to make the squad makes literally a couple of 3pt shots in the whole preseason. But fail to put any context to it.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Good post.
The funny thing about this argument is that people are treating preseason as if we should base our decisions on it while, at the same time, the Kings are not only 4-1 in preseason but, the one game we lost, McLemore had the best shooting game of the preseason, and his best rebounding performance. In the three games that McLemore has started at SG, opposing starting SG's have shot .343 from the field, and have zero offensive rebounds. In the two games that Anderson started at SG, and McLemore came off the bench, opposing starting SG's shot .444, and have one. So, tell me again what he's costing us, exactly?
Livinthedream
All-Star
The dog-pile mentality is actually what I'm defending as well. When I see irrational arguments taking hold I have to speak up. Provide some balance if I can.
Disagree with you. You say we as if your speaking for the forum base.....not the case. You don't have to agree with opinions. I say Anderson has performed better than Ben and may be a better option. Karl has said he likes Anderson and spoken well of him to this point. Calling,Anderson a desperate journey man is sensationalism. Calling Ben inconsistent is not.
I guess Ben is our measuring stick?
God, I hope not. I just don't think that Anderson is an improvement over anybody in particular.
So, we don't haveRichard Nixon Jason Thompson to kick around, any more. When we get rid of McLemore, who becomes the new whipping boy? Acy? Because, if the last decade and a half has proven anything, this message board can't function without it being somebody.
So, we don't have
Livinthedream
All-Star
I respect your opinions, but your post wasn't stated as such. You said 'Fact' and 'have to'. Disagreed with those statements.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Just a few posts up:
Can't Play Anderson Career per36: 12.4pts (.523TS%) 4.7reb 2.5ast 1.0stl 0.4blk 1.7TO
Big Tease Mclemore Career per36: 12.7pts (.522TS%) 3.5reb 1.6ast 0.9stl 0.3blk 1.7TO
Last NBA Season Anderson per36: 12.6pts (.530TS%) 4.7reb 2.3ast 1.2stl 0.4blk 1.7TO
Last NBA Season McLemore per36: 13.4pts (.552TS%) 3.2reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 1.9TO
Now Anderson may truly not be better than Ben. But fact of the matter is that nothing that Ben has shown us yet is impossibly above what Anderson has shown either. When you have two unproductive players, he who knows himself and his game, who is consistent, and who plays defense, is probably the more valuable guy. Ben's welcome to snap to at any time here, but if he still needs yet more time to figure out his game and aggressiveness he can do it on somebody else's dime, or at least time. We've got no more leads to blow or wins to sacrifice for him to wander about in a puppy like haze.
I've said this before, but some guys are just too nice. People who haven't played sports at a decent level may not get that, but the very last person I want to introduce themselves as my teammate is some nice soft spoken submissive who I'm going to have to carry and buck up all season. Being a competitor means being just a little bit of an butthead. You have to want to beat and hurt that person across from you. Before sports, you would literally have been doing that.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
In answering that question we should probably quit acting like the targets have been random. Badly underachieving starting players draw attention and heat. And they are hard to defend with any passion. Acy doesn't matter, he doesn't hurt. If we had 5 starters all succeeding at their jobs, then there is no target. At least no reasonable one that is going to be universally circled.
Where is this idea that Anderson is so consistent coming from? He puts up a 1-5 game with 2 pts, 2 reb and an assist and he's steady. Ben puts up the same line and he's killing the team.
Basically, Anderson isn't nearly the upgrade right now to sacrifice the upside that Ben has. People need to remember we aren't talking about having to play him 30+ minutes anymore but you start Anderson and basically Ben is done. He's too young and if he improves, will be far more valuable (either here or as one of the few trade pieces we have) than Anderson.
I find the veracity of this statement to be highly questionable.
I can understand your reservations about Anderson but I dm't believe Ben is better. What most will impact their playing the is that Ben is resigned and paid more and is a team drafted player. Whether he deserves it or not Ben will probably start.
Livinthedream
All-Star
If we were to agree that:
1. one player knows himself and his game, is mentally tough and is consistetnt.
2. argue that another player is mentally weak, submissive and inconsistent.
Then look at the net result of their stastical impact and it's the same (they are average players), what are we debating? Basically our personality preference?
I agree with you on the parts of Ben's game that needs to improve. I disagree that he is necessarily weak or that his personality is costing us games.
Right? I'm still trying to figure out how you can show two guys who have virtually identical stats, but one guy is 'dependable,' and the other guy is a 'tease.'
Ben and his potential might have been worth two seasons as a starter but not three. So please start someone else. Unfortunately Ben may get the nod because we have so much invested in him and he has just been resigned. We lost the opportunity to trade him over the summer. The best you can say about Ben starting is that the team around him is much better so he probably won't hurt us as much as he has in the past.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Because one guy is dependable, the other guy is a tease.
The dependable guy is tougher physically, which won't show up in the numbers, and from what I've seen likely a more solid play to play defender, which again won't show up in the numbers. His talent is limited, but what limited talent he has you'll see every night. He's dependably mediocre, but you know what you are getting every time out. Its not much, but its always there.
The tease has more talent, at least more offensive talent. But the tease is up, down, all over the place. Prone to big breakouts and complete collapses. you never know what you are going to get from the tease.
The dependable guy gives you 8pts 10pts 8pts
the tease give you 19pts 4pts 3pts
Th first guy forces you to do the majority of the work elsewhere, but you know how much work has to be done, and he make small across the board contributions sufficient that you aren't getting killed at anything.
The second guy...there's nothing to do there. You can't design an offense around that, not knowing when its coming. Nor a stable rotation. Your more accomplished players are spending disproportionate amounts of their time worrying how to get the guy going, pondering should I pass it to him or not. If he's hot, you stop what you are normally doing to try to milk it. Then he disappears and you have to switch back.
kupman
Starter
That is a great question. My guess is that it will be Karl because of his PDA link. If it has to be a player, I am going to say it will be Gay because of his PDA link.
Based on his career game logs, more like the 'dependable' guy gives you 3pts 2pts 9pts 0pts 0pts 11pts.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
He may not be more consistent over his career. Entirely possible. I don't think anybody reacted to James Anderson's signing with woohoo! There's our starter. But he is very solid in a lot of little ways. He can handle the ball, play physically, makes his rotations. He one more time, knows how to play.
As I mentioned somewhere else, if that's enough for you to start him it says very little about how good James Anderson is, and very a lot about how lousy Ben has been playing.
I guess that's my point. It's not that Ben has played well. Its that even as young and inexperienced as he is he basically contributes the same as the older guy. In that case, I'm starting the young guy at least for one more year since we have capable back ups to rely on when he doesn't produce. The alternative is to get the same impact from a journeyman with no upside. Not a tough call to me.
parker
Bench
For what it is worth, 538's NBA player projections, which forecasts future play based on comparable players, suggests that Ben McLemore III is an "up and comer" (comparable to OJ Mayo and Gordon Hayward) and James Anderson is at "scrub" level (comparable to Wayne Ellington).
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/#ben-mclemore
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/#james-anderson
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/#ben-mclemore
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/#james-anderson
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Brick, I think you're overestimating how dependable James Anderson is. Ben is under the microscope more than Anderson so it makes him seem more inconsistent.
Don't get me wrong, Ben is as inconsistent as it gets but look at Anderson's numbers and he's the same except his highs aren't as high. Both guys are extremely inconsistent. Anderson has been inconsistent in preseason and he was inconsistent in Philly. The one consistent thing we have seen is his defense and IQ. Ben isn't quite as good a defender and his IQ is no where near Anderson's, but do you give up on the potential this early for a guy who probably isn't going to be around for a long time? I'd run with Ben until we're forced to make a change. I'm not a Ben believer but I'm not an Anderson believer either so if you have two similar players and ones upside is way up in the rafters and the others upside is a foot above his head, then you have to go with the former.
Don't get me wrong, Ben is as inconsistent as it gets but look at Anderson's numbers and he's the same except his highs aren't as high. Both guys are extremely inconsistent. Anderson has been inconsistent in preseason and he was inconsistent in Philly. The one consistent thing we have seen is his defense and IQ. Ben isn't quite as good a defender and his IQ is no where near Anderson's, but do you give up on the potential this early for a guy who probably isn't going to be around for a long time? I'd run with Ben until we're forced to make a change. I'm not a Ben believer but I'm not an Anderson believer either so if you have two similar players and ones upside is way up in the rafters and the others upside is a foot above his head, then you have to go with the former.
Sac.Kings
All-Star
Bricklayer touched on this a little bit already, but no one is targeting Ben because we want to. Ben has been a player that has played significant minutes the last 2 years and in that time span, he has improved (not greatly, but he has shown at least some signs --- his first season was a disaster so he could only go up from there), but has continued to remain largely inconsistent in his role. A role, that I have to mention, begs of consistency. He just has to be able to hit that open three.
I think that what we can all agree on is what Ben's role (ideally) should be/is. He is our spot up shooter/ace from outside that can defend at an average or above average level while not getting in the way of our stars. He has not proved to be consistent in any one of those things thus far and I think that many people had much higher expectations than what he has shown in preseason thus far (especially with news of all of his work outs and this being his 3rd year).
My opinion of Ben is based on what I see on the court, nothing more, nothing less. This may be cruel to some, but this is Ben's job/craft and I will judge him based on it. People rate me all the time at my job, so Ben is no exception here. What concerns me most about Ben is his demeanor, his lack of fire/attitude, and his inability to be consistent. We really aren't asking much of Ben here, truly. Hit the open shots you get and play defense. His defense has been alright when it's man on man, but team defense continues to baffle him. Ben misses a few shots and forget it, he's done. His confidence has plummeted, and you can see it. He doesn't get angry about it though, it doesn't keep him up at night. It would eat me alive if I was like this with my job or with anything else. I HAVE to be good, no exception. I will work harder than anyone else to achieve that goal. Will Ben? Hearing in the middle of summer of him working on his game is great, but where is it? Where is the progress? The same problems come back every year.
I am absolutely sure he is a great dude off the court, but unfortunately for Ben, the game is played on it. He has to show something, or a guy like Anderson, who IMO isn't better than Ben and doesn't have a quarter of the talent, will take his place. It's not because Anderson earned it, it's because Ben gave it away (and we have no other option). Also, in regards to there being a whipping boy, all the players you mentioned play or have played a significant role on this team. Acy is at best the 4th or 5th big on this team. You don't expect things out of him like you do a starter.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Today's word is consistency. However, we've not defined it.
Also, no one has solves the riddle of Ben being considered inconsistent even though his numbers, including his up and down scoring, are that of the average NBA SG.
Also, no one has solves the riddle of Ben being considered inconsistent even though his numbers, including his up and down scoring, are that of the average NBA SG.
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