Kings Offense

macadocious

macadocious

Starter
I know we bemoaned the double big high horns sets that Joerger ran, but at least there was tons of off ball movement and screens.

This current iteration of read and react is leading to iso ball and lots of watching. Now the standing and watching should not be happening, but if the coaching staff wants to get clean shots for our off guards and wings we will need to be setting down screens and back screens for them. So far we have not. That is why Buddy and Bogi are struggling. Our bigs will get lots of open threes from the pnr and dribble drive, the problem is if it’s not Fox doing it, it won’t be as effective, it’s also causing him to have to make a bunch of tight kick out passes because the spacing is off.

This can work, but Walton and Igor have to adjust.
 
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macadocious said:
I know we bemoaned the double big high horns sets that Joerger ran, but at least there was tons of off ball movement and screens.

This current iteration of read and react is leading to iso ball and lots of watching. Now the standing and watching should not be happening, but if the coaching staff wants to get clean shots for our off guards and wings we will need to be setting down screens and back screens for them. So far we have not. That is why Buddy and Bogi are struggling. Our bigs will get lots of open threes from the pnr and dribble drive, the problem is if it’s not Fox doing it, it won’t be as effective, it’s also causing him to have to make a bunch of tight kick out passes because the spacing is off.

This can work, but Walton and Igor have to adjust.
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Read and react will not work for this roster. There are not enough smart players with good instincts and enough experience.
 
So the question begs, by the time the Kings do learn how to master this offense, when will that be? It might take years. And then at that point, how many of these guys are still on the roster? Is Walton fired but then? That is the organizations MO
 
sactowndog said:
I’m curious. Who would you say has a hi BBIQ on this team?
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  • Fox is inexperienced but smart. However, he is a 21 years old, mastering the most demanding position. He is adequate, but it will take another year or two before he reaches hist potential.
  • CoJo, has good instincts on defense but has no court vision on offense.
  • Yogi, not good passing instincts for PG.
  • Buddy, he should play Peja's role. Not good handles, subpar passing skills.
  • Bogdan is a smart player, but should not be a primary ball-handler. He has a lot of experience oversees, and in his 3rd season in NBA, he could be able to "read and react", playing SG and secondary ballhandler.
  • Barns is a smart, experienced player. Adequate passer, always in the right place.
  • Ariza, well, at this time of his career, his best contribution should be playing defense and shooting open shots.
  • Bagley, inexperienced, with some good instincts (second jump) and some bad. He doesn't pass the ball enough but tried to improve in that regard before the injury. It will take time for him to develop good habits.
  • Bjelica. When he feels it, he is a very good player. He plays smart on both ends of the floor. However, he was wildly inconsistent so far. When it is not his day, he tends to overuse pump-fakes and instead of taking wide-open shots, he drives into multiple defenders.
  • Dedmon. I haven't watched him enough, so I don't know. Based on his turnovers, he is probably not a good fit for "read and react" offense.
  • Holmes is a smart player, who plays to his strengths, knows his role and plays it well.

To summarize, only Fox, Bogdan, Barns, Bjelica (on a good day) and Holmes are smart and experienced enough to play read and react. Maybe Ariza, if he continues to play like the last game. Buddy could if he doesn't try to do what is not good at. Fox's decision making is questionable, but his athleticism and artistry often bail him out when he drives in multiple defenders.
 
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I honestly feel like a big problem is our PGs aren't comfortable pulling up for midrange shots/3s. I'll need to pay more attention next game, but it feels like we never force the defense to go over the screen because both Fox and CoJo don't ever pull up to shoot. Everything then becomes predicated on the guards penetrating and kicking it out or getting it to the big on the roll. Couple that with everyone else standing still and not moving off the ball as highlighted and you get a very stagnant offense.
 
rosa u podne said:
  • Fox is inexperienced but smart. However, he is a 21 years old, mastering the most demanding position. He is adequate, but it will take another year or two before he reaches hist potential.
  • CoJo, has good instincts on defense but has no court vision on offense.
  • Yogi, not good passing instincts for PG.
  • Buddy, he should play Peja's role. Not good handles, subpar passing skills.
  • Bogdan is a smart player, but should not be a primary ball-handler. He has a lot of experience oversees, and in his 3rd season in NBA, he could be able to "read and react", playing SG and secondary ballhandler.
  • Barns is a smart, experienced player. Adequate passer, always in the right place.
  • Ariza, well, at this time of his career, his best contribution should be playing defense and shooting open shots.
  • Bagley, inexperienced, with some good instincts (second jump) and some bad. He doesn't pass the ball enough but tried to improve in that regard before the injury. It will take time for him to develop good habits.
  • Bjelica. When he feels it, he is a very good player. He plays smart on both ends of the floor. However, he was wildly inconsistent so far. When it is not his day, he tends to overuse pump-fakes and instead of taking wide-open shots, he drives into multiple defenders.
  • Dedmon. I haven't watched him enough, so I don't know. Based on his turnovers, he is probably not a good fit for "read and react" offense.
  • Holmes is a smart player, who plays to his strengths, knows his role and plays it well.

To summarize, only Fox, Bogdan, Barns, Bjelica (on a good day) and Holmes are smart and experienced enough to play read and react. Maybe Ariza, if he continues to play like the last game. Buddy could if he doesn't try to do what is not good at. Fox's decision making is questionable, but his athleticism and artistry often bail him out when he drives in multiple defenders.
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I would agree. I was wondering if you might say Holmes. BTW Bjelicia is always smart enough but he gets his emotions in the way some days. Giles should also be on the list which is even more puzzling why they didn’t pick up his option.
 
It's not rocket science. It's repetition, as with any offense or sport. Most of the team does not have enough reps in this offense under their belt, so they look a bit mechanical in their execution. Will some pick it up faster than others? Yes. But they're all capable of running any offense. Basketball is by nature read and react to begin with. For me it comes down to execution of the basics when I watch the team. For example, the loose nature of how the team sets their screens, or even the offensive player correctly rubbing his man off the screen so that the play works. The team could save themselves a lot of heartache with just the small things like that.
 
rosa u podne said:
  • Fox is inexperienced but smart. However, he is a 21 years old, mastering the most demanding position. He is adequate, but it will take another year or two before he reaches hist potential.
  • CoJo, has good instincts on defense but has no court vision on offense.
  • Yogi, not good passing instincts for PG.
  • Buddy, he should play Peja's role. Not good handles, subpar passing skills.
  • Bogdan is a smart player, but should not be a primary ball-handler. He has a lot of experience oversees, and in his 3rd season in NBA, he could be able to "read and react", playing SG and secondary ballhandler.
  • Barns is a smart, experienced player. Adequate passer, always in the right place.
  • Ariza, well, at this time of his career, his best contribution should be playing defense and shooting open shots.
  • Bagley, inexperienced, with some good instincts (second jump) and some bad. He doesn't pass the ball enough but tried to improve in that regard before the injury. It will take time for him to develop good habits.
  • Bjelica. When he feels it, he is a very good player. He plays smart on both ends of the floor. However, he was wildly inconsistent so far. When it is not his day, he tends to overuse pump-fakes and instead of taking wide-open shots, he drives into multiple defenders.
  • Dedmon. I haven't watched him enough, so I don't know. Based on his turnovers, he is probably not a good fit for "read and react" offense.
  • Holmes is a smart player, who plays to his strengths, knows his role and plays it well.

To summarize, only Fox, Bogdan, Barns, Bjelica (on a good day) and Holmes are smart and experienced enough to play read and react. Maybe Ariza, if he continues to play like the last game. Buddy could if he doesn't try to do what is not good at. Fox's decision making is questionable, but his athleticism and artistry often bail him out when he drives in multiple defenders.
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Excellent analysis. I’m higher on Bagley than most. He has such great instincts, I think we’ll see him blossom as an offensive fulcrum as he transitions from impact scorer to team leader.

Conversely, I’m lower on Buddy. I used to strongly believe in the Peja comparison, but that faith is waning. Maybe it could still work out on defense, where Buddy just face guards the other team’s best shooter and denies, kind of like what we did with Peja most of the time. On offense though, Peja was never this bad schematically-a one man wrecking ball to offensive flow. Peja, whether it was the Greek developmental system or an inherent trait, always had good vision. He’d keep the ball moving and never pounded the air out of the ball—a couple decisive dribbles, max. Part of that difference is accounted for by position and era. But, I just have no recollection of Peja taking bad shots. I’m sure he did on occasion, but I never had the feeling he was chucking up nonsense like we get from Buddy on a relatively frequent interval. Now, Peja, like Buddy, staring at thin air while his man beats him backdoor again—yeah, that I remember, vividly.
 
I'm still looking at a half-filled glass. It's a new offense. The point guard is 21 years old is good and getting better. The best shooter on the team is currently looking like a scrub, but has the potential to add to the offense considerably if the light bulb comes on. Bagley is another source of potential energy sitting in street clothes at the moment. And yet this team scored more against Utah than any team has this season. The 20-game mark is December 4 against Portland. By then we'll have a better idea of how to grade this offense, albeit without Bagley.
 
sactowndog said:
I would agree. I was wondering if you might say Holmes. BTW Bjelicia is always smart enough but he gets his emotions in the way some days. Giles should also be on the list which is even more puzzling why they didn’t pick up his option.
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Giles is a great passer. I just don't know if he will play for the Kings this season or better if he will play again ever.
 
Based on what we've watched thus far, the Kings offense consists of Fox making the majority of the plays. When he isn't in the game, the Kings look bottom 3 of the league terrible because the other shot creator on this roster is currently out with injury.
 
So lots of improvement. Balls screens, off ball movement, set plays out of timeouts. We really didn't see much of that in the first 4-5 games.

Now, I still would like to see more pace. We are not talented enough to grind these games out. We don't need to be the breakneck top 3 pace team of last year, but with this roster (when back to being healthy) we should be a top 10 pace team.
 
macadocious said:
So lots of improvement. Balls screens, off ball movement, set plays out of timeouts. We really didn't see much of that in the first 4-5 games.

Now, I still would like to see more pace. We are not talented enough to grind these games out. We don't need to be the breakneck top 3 pace team of last year, but with this roster (when back to being healthy) we should be a top 10 pace team.
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We give up some pace with Fox out but the side to side ball movement is better. Numerous times we saw Bogi on the weakside begging for the ball. You don’t see that now. With this group, if you are open on the weakside you will get the ball.

CoJo is also better at defending the point.

When Fox comes back if he moves the ball to the weakside as well this team could be really good as he is a better shooter than CoJo. If he also steps up his defensive pressure and focus watch out. If he does neither than the team could get worse.
 

I don't understand why we don't run plays like these for Buddy and Bogs. This is a shorter version where Mike sets the screen for Peja and gives him the ball. The longer version is when Mike gives the ball to Vlade down there, then sets the screen for Peja and then Vlade passes the ball to Peja for the 3 pointer.

Additionally, Vlade and Brad Miller have been setting up screens below the rim, Peja would run to the other side, get the ball in the corner and hit the 3.

What I'm saying is - Bogdan would be 10 times more useful player if he had these types of plays written for him and I'm sure Buddy wouldn't mind that either.
 
Peja said:

I don't understand why we don't run plays like these for Buddy and Bogs. This is a shorter version where Mike sets the screen for Peja and gives him the ball. The longer version is when Mike gives the ball to Vlade down there, then sets the screen for Peja and then Vlade passes the ball to Peja for the 3 pointer.

Additionally, Vlade and Brad Miller have been setting up screens below the rim, Peja would run to the other side, get the ball in the corner and hit the 3.

What I'm saying is - Bogdan would be 10 times more useful player if he had these types of plays written for him and I'm sure Buddy wouldn't mind that either.
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This team definitely has some issues getting up an easy shot. It feels like other teams constantly run plays for an easy look and we are relying on fade-aways from Buddy to take leads. We should start incorporating some simple plays like that but the problem with that is personnel related. Bibby was a good three point shooter and clutch, everyone knew that and respected it and Peja is an all time great in regards to 3 point shooting. Teams had to pick. Bibby or Peja. No one worries about that with Fox, they will gladly leave him open.
 
NewArena said:
learning the basics and creating an actual offense before taking the wheels off (whilst racking up the wins) is just BEAUTIFUL. I couldn’t be happier.

I truly didn’t see this coming from Walton or our players with him as our coach
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The only thing that really matters is that Vlade DID see this coming. :)
 
VF21 said:
The only thing that really matters is that Vlade DID see this coming. :)
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ABSOLUTELY! At some point Vlade has to get credit for his astute moves. Oh wait, sorry, no...he doesn’t speak the Queen’s, go to Morey’s insipid Sloan conference, or leak info to Zach Lowe, so he must not know what he’s doing. It’s unbelievable to me the kind of biases that are somehow acceptable to state about Vlade and our front office. It’s really shocking when one thinks about it. Oh, and my personal favorite: hE gAvE BarNes a HuGe CoNTraCT wHen HE coULd haVE siGNEd OuBre!
 
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