Kings notes: Lack of minutes confuses Martin

[Kingsgurl]

In case you havnt noticed VF21, our bench is killing us! K Mart is the heart of the bench problem. He is so freakin soft. A softy who cant shoot, by the way.

If the Kings had any kind of a bench, we would be on the good side of .500, no doubt in my mind.

In fact, he is SO much the problem that even with him not playing, we STILL lose.

 

[Bricklayer]

In fact, he is SO much the problem that even with him not playing, we STILL lose.

Clearly a cancer.

 

[Wuster]

You cannot possibly be trying to compare Peja, Miller, Bibby, Reef and KT - all SEASONED veterans - with Kevin, can you? And if you are, WHY?

Kevin is a second year player who is, for all intents and purposes, a rookie if you consider how very little time he had on the court last year. Some people seem to feel that because some of us like him, it's their sworn duty to dislike him. Why? He's a member of the team. Why shouldn't we ALL be hoping that he does well and finds a way to contribute?

So how exactly is Kevin doing so much worse than the seasoned vets? This is just ludicrous. He may not be helping us, but you must have not seen many games lately or you wouldn't be pointing the finger at him so much. You might want to gesture a little more in the direction of the guys who are supposedly the CORE of this team. If they were doing their jobs, we wouldn't be arguing about whether or not a young kid with a lot of heart and potential is doing his.

I understand the thrust of this, VF. And I wish the best for all Kings players, I really do. But KMart's potential and heart basically aren't adding up to anything of significance - a postitive game or two notwithstanding. He's accountable for his performances, good or bad, and apologizing for him based on his youthful tenure only goes so far. I do agree the core, in fact the entire team, is party to the malaise and not doing their job. The trickle down effect is evident.

 

[VF21]

OMG - Kingsgurl, you're right. I really must start paying more attention, because apparently I haven't been paying attention at all...

 

[DirkAB]

You've said harsher words about Peja, as have I. Do I need to quote them to you? Is he disowned already?

Acting towards one of our own? Much worse has been directed at the likes of Miller, Bibby, Reef, Peja, and KT and you go out of the way to defend this kid and make a blanket statement about treating "one of ours". You his aunt or something?

If he's a late bloomer, so be it. Whether he'll ever be good years from now is not a question I'm concerned with currently. He's not helping us now. Get the kid some extra practices and off the court till he's ready. We don't have the luxury to babysit in our current situation.

Exactly! Do other teams, especially ones with playoff hopes, allow their rookies or young players on the court for extended minutes when they are obviously not ready? Martin is a turnover or a forced shot just waiting to happen, but I think he has potential to improve. If the Kings don't improve soon then and they are basically out of playoff contention, then he can justifiably have extended minutes. Until then he should barely see the court, Garcia is way more ready for the NBA and should get the minutes.

Just because a player is young and is in a Kings uniform does that make him exempt the scrutiny that comes along with being a professional athlete? So how many years do we have to wait before it is acceptable to complain about the horrible decision making he has displayed in the games?

 

[VF21]

I understand the thrust of this, VF. And I wish the best for all Kings players, I really do. But KMart's potential and heart basically aren't adding up to anything of significance - a postitive game or two notwithstanding. He's accountable for his performances, good or bad, and apologizing for him based on his youthful tenure only goes so far. I do agree the core, in fact the entire team, is party to the malaise and not doing their job. The trickle down effect is evident.

The entire team is in flux. I am NOT saying Kevin shouldn't be held accountable for his performances; I am, however, saying that his inconsistency is pretty understandable, especially when you consider what's going on with the ROLE MODELS, the starters who should be leading the way for the bench, not following behind them.

People who can go all the way down the roster and somehow manage to settle on Kevin - or Ronnie Price - or Cisco - as the chief reason for this team's woes simply don't have a clue.

In his article today, Kreidler says that before the season even started, Adelman made it clear the CORE PLAYERS were going to have to play better than they've ever played before for this team to even have a chance.

The younger players have to learn from someone. They need to blend into a cohesive unit in order to be effective, to learn and to grow. That's simply not happening.

THIS TEAM isn't a team right now. Until it is, singling out any one player for this much animus is just player hate, IMHO. (And, of course, I'm not referring to you, Wuster, because I know you get it...)

 

[Zyphen]

You cannot possibly be trying to compare Peja, Miller, Bibby, Reef and KT - all SEASONED veterans - with Kevin, can you? And if you are, WHY?

Kevin is a second year player who is, for all intents and purposes, a rookie if you consider how very little time he had on the court last year. Some people seem to feel that because some of us like him, it's their sworn duty to dislike him. Why? He's a member of the team. Why shouldn't we ALL be hoping that he does well and finds a way to contribute?

So how exactly is Kevin doing so much worse than the seasoned vets? This is just ludicrous. He may not be helping us, but you must have not seen many games lately or you wouldn't be pointing the finger at him so much. You might want to gesture a little more in the direction of the guys who are supposedly the CORE of this team. If they were doing their jobs, we wouldn't be arguing about whether or not a young kid with a lot of heart and potential is doing his.

You make up the most interesting reasons. As if people have nothing better to do than to look at your opinions when forming their own. Yes, that's exactly it. I'm being contrary just to spite you. I couldn't possibly have any other reason.

Who says Kevin is doing much worse than the vets. You're coming up with these ridiculous comparisons, not me. I have not once compared Kevin to any other player except Garcia. And don't tell me that isn't fair.

Gesture a little more in the direction of the other guys? I think it's ridiculous that you would even make the implication that I haven't. I don't think enough of Martin to even say he matters. Bonzi/SAR/Peja/Miller/Bibby/KT matter. Martin does not. And sometimes he hurts us. I'm looking for people off the bench that'll make themselves matter. And the only one that should even be comparable (in terms of mattering) to the starters is KT. But he's sucking. I wouldn't be opposed to more minutes for him (and Skinner) if that'd help.

This is just laughable. I haven't even considered you made this kind of leap in assumption. Well, let me put your fears to rest. I'm not blaming Martin for the team losing. I just don't think he'll contribute to our winning. Furthermore, I think there are players on the bench who'll make a better contribution than Martin though all of them are incomparable to the starters in terms of turning this team around.

 

[VF21]

Exactly! Do other teams, especially ones with playoff hopes, allow their rookies or young players on the court for extended minutes when they are obviously not ready? Martin is a turnover or a forced shot just waiting to happen, but I think he has potential to improve. If the Kings don't improve soon then and they are basically out of playoff contention, then he can justifiably have extended minutes. Until then he should barely see the court, Garcia is way more ready for the NBA and should get the minutes.

Just because a player is young and is in a Kings uniform does that make him exempt the scrutiny that comes along with being a professional athlete? So how many years do we have to wait before it is acceptable to complain about the horrible decision making he has displayed in the games?

No one has said he's exempt from scrunity, except perhaps you. Be a little less biased and your comments just might hold a little more credence. As it is, feel free to continue to lambast Kevin at every opportunity.

At what point is it acceptable to complain about horrible decision making? When you can honestly say you're just as ready to be complimentary as to be critical. Otherwise, your comments are pretty much one-sided.

 

[Zyphen]

The entire team is in flux. I am NOT saying Kevin shouldn't be held accountable for his performances; I am, however, saying that his inconsistency is pretty understandable, especially when you consider what's going on with the ROLE MODELS, the starters who should be leading the way for the bench, not following behind them.

People who can go all the way down the roster and somehow manage to settle on Kevin - or Ronnie Price - or Cisco - as the chief reason for this team's woes simply don't have a clue.

In his article today, Kreidler says that before the season even started, Adelman made it clear the CORE PLAYERS were going to have to play better than they've ever played before for this team to even have a chance.

The younger players have to learn from someone. They need to blend into a cohesive unit in order to be effective, to learn and to grow. That's simply not happening.

THIS TEAM isn't a team right now. Until it is, singling out any one player for this much animus is just player hate, IMHO. (And, of course, I'm not referring to you, Wuster, because I know you get it...)

I would just reject the notion that Kevin Martin could possibly be seen by anybody as the major cause of our misfortunes, offhand.

 

[bdouble013]

Kevin needs work period. The problem is (and has been in the Rick Adelman years) that the young kids don't get that time to work out their problems on the court, because the teams have been competitive. Thats not a bad thing. I would much rather have the last 6 years than the previous 14.

These days, however, it might be time to give the other guys some run, just to see what it would do to the team. Perhaps the starters get pissed that their minutes are taken away. Perhaps Kevin and company begin to shine. Who knows? The only question left is, is there anything left to lose by trying? I mean how much worse could it get.






(PLEASE don't answer that. I don't really want to know. )

 

[KP]

The fact that Martin is confused confuses me.

 

[thesanityannex]

Just because a player is young and is in a Kings uniform does that make him exempt the scrutiny that comes along with being a professional athlete? So how many years do we have to wait before it is acceptable to complain about the horrible decision making he has displayed in the games?

Agreed. Once they are in the league, let the scrutiny begin. Same goes for anyone who's in the spotlight, its part of the gig. This thread is about Martin, so why are some surprised people are voicing their concerns? Does it really matter if Martin is put down on this board? I doubt he reads this stuff, so who cares? As fans of a team, this is our job, to criticize or praise. No one here should be telling others who and who not to criticize or praise, it seems to be a personal choice. All of this, "he's one of ours" needs to be done with. Just because he's young doesn't mean he gets a free pass.

 

[Kings241]

If this team wants to go to the playoffs they have to limit Martin's playing time because he looks like a player that learns slowly. I actually like RA bringing in Garcia because Garcia unlike Kevin plays with the flow of the offense. Garcia never looks confused out there and knows how to finish a fast break or make a nice pass to the open man. Sure you can argue Garcia takes a lot of outside shots but he does everything else where. I see more talent in Garcia even in his rookie year then I have seen from Kevin Martin.

 

[VF21]

Agreed. Once they are in the league, let the scrutiny begin. Same goes for anyone who's in the spotlight, its part of the gig. This thread is about Martin, so why are some surprised people are voicing their concerns? Does it really matter if Martin is put down on this board? I doubt he reads this stuff, so who cares? As fans of a team, this is our job, to criticize or praise. No one here should be telling others who and who not to criticize or praise, it seems to be a personal choice. All of this, "he's one of ours" needs to be done with. Just because he's young doesn't mean he gets a free pass.

This is really a pretty intriguing comment.

You say I shouldn't be telling fans whom to criticize or praise, and yet you say 'this "he's one of ours" needs to be done with.'

Talk about a conundrum inside a paradox wrapped up in an enigma.

 

[thesanityannex]

You say I shouldn't be telling fans whom to criticize or praise, and yet you say 'this "he's one of ours" needs to be done with.'

whats so confusing, when you say, "he's one of ours", you seem to give him the free pass when the others that are "one of ours" are blasted all the time. anytime martin is criticized, you jump to his defense and give other posters excuses for his poor performances, which are frequent. what is the deal with martin being so highly defended is all i want to know?

 

[Bricklayer]

If this team wants to go to the playoffs they have to limit Martin's playing time because he looks like a player that learns slowly. I actually like RA bringing in Garcia because Garcia unlike Kevin plays with the flow of the offense. Garcia never looks confused out there and knows how to finish a fast break or make a nice pass to the open man. Sure you can argue Garcia takes a lot of outside shots but he does everything else where. I see more talent in Garcia even in his rookie year then I have seen from Kevin Martin.

He may not look confused, but Cisco's decisinmaking has often been horrid thus far.

I actually think that PART of the bench problem, not the WHOLE thing by any stretch, but PART of the problem with the bench has been a decision made before the season to give our young guys more time to develop this season. And early on they just haven't gotten it done with any consistency.

Throw in KT struggling to have an impact as a 6th man, Hart's fauilure so far as a backup point, and...just not good. At this point if I were the coach I wouldn't at all be against an experiment bring Cisco off the bench as a backup 1/2 (even though Rick is probably scared of that after he showed he could not handle vs. a PG against Denver early in the year) Corliss as a SF + designated scorer, and Skinner as a 4/5 shotblocker. Mix it up. Why not. Be some unhappy campers in Thomas + Hart + Martin, + they've had their chance.

 

[thesanityannex]

Be some unhappy campers in Thomas + Hart + Martin, + they've had their chance.

agreed. they haven't shown anything. especially thomas, i'm surprised he's not being ripped, he deserves it more than anything. personally, i think its his not wanting to come off the bench that has affected his play.

 

[VF21]

thesanityannex - I haven't given him a free pass, but I'm a lot more willing to allow him to make errors than someone who has been in the league a number of years, is making a gazillion dollars, KNOWS what he's supposed to do when he's supposed to do it, etc.

If you feel I'm too defensive of Martin, there is absolutely nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Look at the first line in the article again:

"Kevin Martin wants to be subbing instead of sitting down."

Isn't that what we want from our bench players?

He is one of ours, just like Peja, just like Ronnie Price, just like Garcia, just like Bibby.

I have and will defend every single one of them when I think it's becoming more player bashing without any substance in criticism. That's me - VF21 the fan.

At this point, any future discussion in this vein would be best handled by PMs. While some message boards manage to subsist on lengthy exchanges that invariably lead to personal attacks, this isn't one of them...

Peace.

 

[thesanityannex]

thesanityannex - I haven't given him a free pass, but I'm a lot more willing to allow him to make errors than someone who has been in the league a number of years, is making a gazillion dollars, KNOWS what he's supposed to do when he's supposed to do it, etc.

If you feel I'm too defensive of Martin, there is absolutely nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Look at the first line in the article again:

"Kevin Martin wants to be subbing instead of sitting down."

Isn't that what we want from our bench players?

He is one of ours, just like Peja, just like Ronnie Price, just like Garcia, just like Bibby.

I have and will defend every single one of them when I think it's becoming more player bashing without any substance in criticism. That's me - VF21 the fan.

At this point, any future discussion in this vein would be best handled by PMs. While some message boards manage to subsist on lengthy exchanges that invariably lead to personal attacks, this isn't one of them...

Peace.

no need to pm, its not personal. "Kevin Martin wants to be subbing instead of sitting down" No, thats not what I want from a bench player who's not producing anything. There is tons of substance which prevents it from being labeled bashing, his stats are enough.

 

[bozzwell]

Is Kevin Martin about to become *our* new MDP???

I can't believe that a seldom used, second year lower-first-rounder has replaced Webb and Pedja as this forum's Most Diviseve Player.

I am sorry, I could not pass up on this one.

 

[BigWaxer]

Interesting thread.

Some comments I picked up on. RA is in a no win situation here. If he doesn't play the young guys he is not a good developer of talent. If he plays them all the time then he is not doing whats best for the team.

As far as Kevin, I think he is a decent player, most likely just being honest a good backup with potential for first string if he continues to work hard. I am not upset about him wanting more minutes, I think that is the type of drive you would except from someone that has been reported to work so hard.

I don't think Kevin gets a free pass here, I think he is young and only in his second year. As VF said really his first year with any real minutes. When he is playing and "on it" I think he looks great and has tons of potential but as Brick said its the other times when he looks lost. When you are trying to win every game you are not going to get a lot of playing time if your inconsistant. I mean I am sure RA thinks everytime he puts Kevin in, what Kmart am I getting tonight... the one that is lost or the one that is busting his tail every minute.

Bottom line playing time is earned. Hell playing time is earned in my boys pee wee league. If you don't play well during games, dont practice hard you are not going to get the same amount of time as someone that does. That simple, Kevin should be upset at himself for his inconsistancy.

One game does not make an allstar nor does it make a bust. Give him some time to grow. He is not the reason we are having problems right now. In fact I would figure him to be fairly low on the list of our current issues.

 

[OHSacFan]

In case you havnt noticed VF21, our bench is killing us! K Mart is the heart of the bench problem. He is so freakin soft. A softy who cant shoot, by the way.

If the Kings had any kind of a bench, we would be on the good side of .500, no doubt in my mind.

Okay, now that Kevin hasn't played in basically two weeks, who is the heart of the problem now?

 

[swisshh]

The bench rotation seems to be different every week. The only constants are Thomas and Hart, who have done little and done nothing. Hart only plays because Price is the 12th man. It might be worth giving Ronnie a run at this point. Unfortunately, that's another rook to go along with the other young guys who have underwhelmed.

You can annoyingly defend KMart all you want, but choosing him over Evans was a big mistake by management.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Evans is averaging 6.1 points, 3.1 boards, .8 assists, .7 steals and .2 blocks per game, he's shooting a blistering 90 percent from the free throw line, but has only been there 10 times....all season.
Kevin is averaging 5.3, 2.1, .6 assists, .63 steals, and .13 blocks, he was shooting above 90% from the line when he only had 10 attempts, but now that he's been to the line 35 times, it's dropped to 83%

Yep, that's the difference right there.

 

[grandmastapoop]

Evans is averaging 6.1 points, 3.1 boards, .8 assists, .7 steals and .2 blocks per game, he's shooting a blistering 90 percent from the free throw line, but has only been there 10 times....all season.
Kevin is averaging 5.3, 2.1, .6 assists, .63 steals, and .13 blocks, he was shooting above 90% from the line when he only had 10 attempts, but now that he's been to the line 35 times, it's dropped to 83%

Yep, that's the difference right there.

Oh, I love statheads. Did you even watch a game last season? Mo Evans was head and shoulders above Kevin Martin in terms of ability, athleticism, toughness, defense, and effort. Kevin has barely improved this year, and he is no Mo Evans. I haven't seen Mo with the Pistons, but I did see an article on SI.com last night about how happy the Pistons are with Mo. He is a rising star and we blew it when we let him walk for 1.5 freaking million dollars.

 

[vj9999]

Oh, I love statheads. Did you even watch a game last season?

That made me laugh... Especially since it was directed at Kingsgurl If anyone has watched any games I'm sure it was her.

 

[grandmastapoop]

That made me laugh... Especially since it was directed at Kingsgurl If anyone has watched any games I'm sure it was her.

That part was facetious, I'm sure she's saw/attended just about every one. But how anyone could even compare those two is beyond me. It's like light and day.

 

[Kingsgurl]

It's like light and day

Aren't light and day pretty much synonomous? And it wasn't ME who decided that Kevin had the POTENTIAL to be better than Mo, it was the Kings organization. My comment was merely that we have much bigger problems than not having Mo freaking Evans.
I only noticed the stats because I LIKE Mo and I check on him every once in a while. I thought his numbers were enemic (especially for a rising star!) and thought he should be doing better than that. His PT is dropping too.

 

[Gargamel]

76 viewers at 8:30 am on a weekday. Whoa.

 

[KingKong]

Something's gotta be up.