Kings notes: Lack of minutes confuses Martin

[AriesMar27]

ugh... if im not mistaken evans wasnt that great off the bench either last season..... he couldnt shoot or get his own shot and if it werent for the occasional alley-oop he would have been even more of a nonfactor than martin is this season....

because unlike last season we dont have anyone who can or wants to take over a game.... after the webber trade it was mobley that kept us in games..... bobby and miller were hurt and outside of darius, the bench sucked.... including evans.....

martin is not the issue, look at gerald wallace.... he didnt play and now that he does he is doing quite well.... as are hedo and i guess thats its unless you want to count damon jones..... the real problem is with thomas, hart and a lack of a good back up for peja..... he isnt playing too well and we have no one to take his place off of the bench.

if we still had bobby/house and darius this team would be a hell of a lot better off.... thomas isnt doing it and neither is hart, we dont need any bench players to run the offense, we just need them to score..... im surprised that petrie couldnt find players that just want to score points... since we all know that our defense is just awful....

martin is cool, our team sucks *** and i cant believe its not butter.... spray.....

 

[OHSacFan]

I talked to Kevin two weeks ago and told him the next time he gets into a ball game, to go back to what he used to do so well and take over. I told him he needs to screw the offense, screw the way Adleman wants things run, and to do what he is capable of doing. So I guess we'll sit back and see if he listened to anything I told him to do.

I'm not defending him in any manner. His play has been subpar at best, but his play is twenty times better than anyone has seen, and it's time for him to hit the floor and get his. I guess what I"m saying is it's time for him to worry about himself. That is the only way he's going to see any playing time.

 

[1kingzfan]

Oh, I love statheads.

This is what you say when faced with stats which destroy the foundation of your argument.

The point is that Kevin has produced at about the same rate as Mo, so to say that it was some major error to have let Mo go doesn't wash.

The "stathead" comment would have been appropriate though had Kingsgurl said something like this:

Kings record when KMart plays more than 1 minute: 7-8
Kings record when KMart plays less than 1 minute: 0-4

Therefore, the Kings suck when Kevin does not play and they are mediocre when he does.

Food for thought, actually!

 

[1kingzfan]

I talked to Kevin two weeks ago and told him the next time he gets into a ball game, to go back to what he used to do so well and take over. I told him he needs to screw the offense, screw the way Adleman wants things run, and to do what he is capable of doing. So I guess we'll sit back and see if he listened to anything I told him to do.

I'm not defending him in any manner. His play has been subpar at best, but his play is twenty times better than anyone has seen, and it's time for him to hit the floor and get his. I guess what I"m saying is it's time for him to worry about himself. That is the only way he's going to see any playing time.

Not sure that totally ignoring Adelman is the way to go, and I'm not sure Kevin has been listening to him exactly either.

But it was interesting to hear Jason Hart on the radio the other day saying that he was still confused by the Princeton offense, not knowing when to stick with it and when to break it. And I think, even though Kevin has had more time with it, it's a whole different ball game this year with all the new players, that is still Kevin's problem.

Obviously, players like Bonzi and Cisco have absolutely no qualms about breaking the offense to do their own thing. And guess what? They are lauded here for it because they are trying to make something happen (even when what they make happen isn't always good).

But that indeed is what Kevin needs to do...try to make something happen, instead of just getting what comes to him by always operating within the rigid flow of that passing offense which, BTW, does not take full advantage of Kevin's ability to slash to the basket. Gerald Wallace got caught up in the same thing when he was here. The Princeton O didn't suit him well, either, and perhaps does not suit our TEAM any longer.

Since nobody on the bench is exactly tearing it up, Kevin will get more chances soon. When he does, he needs to bring an "edge" to his game and selectively "bust" the offense when the time is right.

 

[thesanityannex]

. The Princeton O didn't suit him well, either, and perhaps does not suit our TEAM any longer.

bingo

 

[Kings113]

ugh... if im not mistaken evans wasnt that great off the bench either last season..... he couldnt shoot or get his own shot and if it werent for the occasional alley-oop he would have been even more of a nonfactor than martin is this season....

Uh, Evans was one of our best bench guys man. Playing solid defense, going after boards, his athleticism, energy, toughness, putbacks, dunks, three pointers. He had a bunch of great starts when someone was out. Occasional alley-oop? That's quite the exaggeration. Also, he proved he could shoot the three with consistency in 2005, and has continued to do that now. No, he couldn't get his own shot.

But, I would love to have Evans backing up Bonzi right now.

 

[Wuster]

I talked to Kevin two weeks ago and told him the next time he gets into a ball game, to go back to what he used to do so well and take over. I told him he needs to screw the offense, screw the way Adleman wants things run, and to do what he is capable of doing. So I guess we'll sit back and see if he listened to anything I told him to do.

I'm not defending him in any manner. His play has been subpar at best, but his play is twenty times better than anyone has seen, and it's time for him to hit the floor and get his. I guess what I"m saying is it's time for him to worry about himself. That is the only way he's going to see any playing time.

Interesting. Sounds like a trade is what he needs then - if he can't find himself and play in Adelman's systems.

 

[1kingzfan]

Interesting. Sounds like a trade is what he needs then - if he can't find himself and play in Adelman's systems.

By that logic, 9 or 10 players need to be traded as well.

 

[SharpShooter]

He just needs to be quiet because theres a lot worse problems than him not getting any minutes.

 

[uolj]

I talked to Kevin two weeks ago and told him the next time he gets into a ball game, to go back to what he used to do so well and take over. I told him he needs to screw the offense, screw the way Adleman wants things run, and to do what he is capable of doing. So I guess we'll sit back and see if he listened to anything I told him to do.

I'm not defending him in any manner. His play has been subpar at best, but his play is twenty times better than anyone has seen, and it's time for him to hit the floor and get his. I guess what I"m saying is it's time for him to worry about himself. That is the only way he's going to see any playing time.

Wow, I hope he doesn't listen to you. That's not what I would be telling him to do.

Be aggressive, yes. Play your game, yes. But screw the offense to do it? No way. How about focus on finding your place within the offense or at least the parameters set up by the coaching staff? If doing your own thing is the only way to show what you can do, then your future is not very bright in the league. That's kind of a give up option you are advising him to take.

As long as Adelman is around, working outside the offense is the quickest way to his doghouse. Did you see his face when Garcia launched his three pointer in the second half? He hates that stuff.

Martin's got to use his head to find a way to make a real contribution each and every game, and do all the hustle and dirty work he can when he's out there. If he wants to be pro-active about getting minutes, that's the way to do it, not causing the on-court flow to be any more out of synch.

 

[John Galt]

Kevin will be lucky if he ever escapes Adleman's doghouse. It has been my impression over the last five years that guys who gripe about minutes in the press are consistently and harshly punished by Adleman. I wish Kevin hadn't done that.

Best thing he can do is go to Adelman with hat in hand and say he's sorry - he was tricked by the reporter and taken out of context. His only hope.

 

[BigWaxer]

His best hope is to perform consistantly. That way when RA puts him on the floor he knows what he is going to get. 20 pts one night then 0 for the next 3 games is not a way to earn yourself more playing time.

 

[swisshh]

This is what you say when faced with stats which destroy the foundation of your argument.

The point is that Kevin has produced at about the same rate as Mo, so to say that it was some major error to have let Mo go doesn't wash.

The "stathead" comment would have been appropriate though had Kingsgurl said something like this:

Kings record when KMart plays more than 1 minute: 7-8
Kings record when KMart plays less than 1 minute: 0-4

Therefore, the Kings suck when Kevin does not play and they are mediocre when he does.

Food for thought, actually!

No, stats are what people rely on when they can't or won't make good analysis of players and situations in sports. Basically, in the sports world stats are the biggest copout. People who can watch a player or team and understand what they're doing and how they play without someone telling them are people who don't use stats. Numbers are just the abstract data based on complicated life and action of sports. Stats are just an American obsession.

What I'm saying is you can tell me how long Abraham Lincoln lived, but you can't tell me how he lived.

So, Kinggurl's stats argue at best that Evans is marginally better than Martin. The numbers don't tell the hidden info though, that Evans is earning and winning minutes on a much deeper bench while Martin is losing minutes on a weak bench. She also doesn't include the bit where KMart is shooting below 40% while Evans is shooting above 50%. Or the bit where Evans is the leading bench scorer on a World Championship caliber team that brings All-Star like players like McDyess off the bench. Ooooor(being obnoxious now) that Evans is doing this playing behind Prince and Hamilton, two of Detroit's biggest players.

So do you see the difference between stale statistics and actual knowledge now?

As for the idea of Kmart doing his own thing, I don't argue with that. He's a dribble drive guy, a guy who seems to need to get himself into the flow of the game instead of getting random looks from beyond the arc. He certainly isn't getting a rhthym going within the offense. The problem is that doing things outside of the offense really magnifies any mistake he makes.

 

[Ryle]

Adelman picks one player a year(never a starter) who he will put in his doghouse. Last year it was Tag and the year before it was Tony Mass. and it looks like Kevin is the one this year. With this article I think he just shut the door on any playing time he may have seen.

 

[Bricklayer]

So do you see the difference between stale statistics and actual knowledge now?

Enough.

You hinted at but missed the key STATISTICAL differences that tell the tale:

Mo
16.5min 6.1pts (.463 .346 .900) 3.1rebs 0.8ast 0.7stl 0.3blk 0.5TO
Kevin
15.4min 5.3pts (.366 .176 .829) 2.1rebs 0.6ast 0.6stl 0.1blk 0.7TO

Mo has NOT been great, and not everyone in Pistonland is thrilled to tlel you the truth, but he's been solid and efficient once again. He's a more mature, older player who knows his game and what he wants to do out there. He's also got more range on his shot.

Kevin has NOT been efficient, doesn't look like he knows how he wants to approach each game, and its there in the numbers. He was kept over Mo because a) he was cheaper, and b) becuase Mo is considerably older. This is all Mo will ever be -- a solid backup. The idea with Kevin was that as a young player he still ahs the chance to develop into something more. he has superior ballhandling skills, is a more natural scorer. But thus far he hasn't put it together, and the will, drive, determination, confidence etc. which Mo has are lacking in Kevin to date.

There was no mystery to why we kept him. No mystery to how things have gone. No mystery why he hasn't succeeded so far. And no great cartastrophe in losing Mo. We had a value judgment -- potential over proven, and now we either pay for it (have been so far) or win in the long run. Either way a Mo Evans is only capable of helping your bench be average even if he's kept.

 

[Bricklayer]

Adelman picks one player a year(never a starter) who he will put in his doghouse. Last year it was Tag and the year before it was Tony Mass. and it looks like Kevin is the one this year. With this article I think he just shut the door on any playing time he may have seen.

Kevin was given every chance. (Actually as was Mass, who despite his wimping was simply outplayed by Darius and outclassed by Webb). If Martin is actually in the doghouse, it is because he played himself into it. As it is, almost the entire bench has to be in the doghouse at this point, so I would imagine Kevin will have a chance to escape out of it. Have no particular confidence he will sieze that chance, but there is nobody ahead of him performing worth a damn either. Significant problem for him is just not having a calling card. Nothing that would suggest to Rick that if he wants to see more "x" on the floor, Kevin is the guy to call.

 

[Kingsgurl]

My point, which many of you are merrily missing, is that Mo Evans (or Kevin Martin) are NOT the reason we are losing here. We have MANY issues (the bench is one of them, but I would start with KT who isn't producing anything (stat-wise OR watching in person) Mo is NOT, contrary to what you might think, the player who would make 'all the difference' to our situtation. That's like thinking we should nominate Joe Kleine for the Hall of Fame.

 

[Venom]

In the Vegas Summer League, Garcia spent his time learning the offense, making sure the sets were run, and taking only prescribed or last-second shots. Kevin frequently broke the offense to dribble around, or to put up shots. Consequently, Kevin scored more in the summer and appeared to be the better player.

However, the work that Garcia did is now bearing fruit. While he is also inconsistant, Adelman maintains confidence in him. Not so for Kevin. This is the same stuff Wallace pulled every summer. He'd freelance all summer long, put up huge numbers, and then never get off the bench during the season. Natural talent is great, and you'll always be able to look like a stud on expansion teams, but every playoff team out there has a fairly intricate offense that can only be broken by the acknowledged stars of the team. NBA coaches have too much at stake for some late first-round pick to be out there heaving up random shots. Couple all that with a hideous shot release.

While time in the D-league isn't going to help Kevin learn the Princeton, I think he should be relegated to it. He MUST get that hitch out of his shot, and he needs to learn how to be a part of ANY offense night in, night out. You can putz around and freelance at Western Carolina or during the summer, but against/with guys equally talented and hungry, it won't fly.

 

[Kingsgurl]

However, the work that Garcia did is now bearing fruit. While he is also inconsistant, Adelman maintains confidence in him.

Adelman didn't play him at all at the beginning of the year. I don't think Adelman currently has 'confidence' in any of his bench players, and he shouldn't. It will be interesting to see how much leash he gives him after that last game, because that was HIDEOUS. Garcia has, at TIMES, been effective because he DOES break the offense, not because he spent the summer league figuring out how the offense works. Did you watch last nights game, by chance?

NBA coaches have too much at stake for some late first-round pick to be out there heaving up random shots.

I know you realize Garcia is also a late first round pick, and if we had to pick which one has a penchant for heaving up random shots.........................

 

[thesanityannex]

I know you realize Garcia is also a late first round pick, and if we had to pick which one has a penchant for heaving up random shots.........................

at least some of his go in, and his shot isn't ugly so i'd choose garcia's random heavings any day.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Apparently, I'm still bitter about that air ball last night. There was nothing pretty about that, especially not with the amount of time left on the clock

 

[Bricklayer]

When you're having a debate about who you'd rather have shooting between:

15.4min 5.3pts (.366 .176 .829)
and
16.1min 4.9pts (.373 .160 .778)

you know your team has some serious issues.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Amen........stathead

 

[anarchis]

i don't see why kevin needs more minutes to play and he said he was the leading scorer off the bench???? that's only 1 time and the next next game he sucks and show no consistency, after his statement, i'm pretty sure he'll get less minutes than he has right now

 

[Bricklayer]

i don't see why kevin needs more minutes to play and he said he was the leading scorer off the bench???? that's only 1 time and the next next game he sucks and show no consistency, after his statement, i'm pretty sure he'll get less minutes than he has right now

That would be pretty much impossible, except in the realm of quantum physics.

 

[bozzwell]

at least some of his go in, and his shot isn't ugly so i'd choose garcia's random heavings any day.

Garcia's shot may not be as ugly but it looks as "untrained" as Kevins. Both of them should start working extensively on their shot. If they are putting an hour extra a day they should start putting in two hours. If they are already putting in two hours they should start cosidering alternative career.

 

[BMiller52]

Garcia's shot may not be as ugly but it looks as "untrained" as Kevins. Both of them should start working extensively on their shot. If they are putting an hour extra a day they should start putting in two hours. If they are already putting in two hours they should start cosidering alternative career.

That was hilarious

 

[6th]

Neither player has a pretty shot. Which is worse.....a player who is reluctant to take a shot and keeps his veteran teammates involved or a player who jacks up ill-advised shots with a defender in his grill with 15 seconds left on the shot clock?

 

[nbrans]

Neither player has a pretty shot. Which is worse.....a player who is reluctant to take a shot and keeps his veteran teammates involved or a player who jacks up ill-advised shots with a defender in his grill with 15 seconds left on the shot clock?

That's actually a fair question -- however ugly Martin's shot may be they're both shooting 37%. Ouch.

 

[slugking50]

DNP-CD for Kevin tonight.