[Game] Kings @ Nets-Wed Dec 20th-4:30p

[andjel]

Show me what other teams have minutes distributions like that. Plus, it's partly the inconsistencies from game to game. Seven minutes one night, 28 the next.

If this trend continues the whole season then the eventual blow up with carry into the summer. Platoons eventually get ugly even when teams are winning. Those who ignore history.

Probably none, and there should not be any.

Unless I am missing something, there is no team that has 4 rookies and 4 second year players that have potential to be part of the Kings future (not even counting Giles yet).
How will you test that crazy amount of potential without platoon minutes?
As I mentioned, if the next year we have the same story, than what you wrote is applicable. Not this year.

The same goes for minutes. There is NO established starters for the future, and Kings are not playing for winning right now. I actually prefer inconsistencies in minutes for all younglings (beside maybe BB) so they can show what they can do with bench mentality as well as starters mentality.

 

[VF21]

Really? Pollute?

This isn't the "same old tired refrain." It's a legitimate gripe that there's ZERO consistency with our young guys getting minutes, especially after they have strong games. Buddy scores 24 points on great shooting, gets 0 leash when he struggles in this game. Same thing happened with Frank. I missed the 2nd half of the Sixers game, but from what I read, Malachi had a nice impact on our comeback and he can't even get off the bench. How does that help his development? How does that help any of their development?

...sigh... ONE THREAD. That's all I'm talking about. The game thread, the one thread that is real time.

As far as your question about Malachi goes, he played well in one game. That's great. Maybe because he hasn't played a lot he wasn't ready for the second game of a back-to-back on the road. I trust Joerger. I don't second guess him in things like that because I have no access to the kind of knowledge/information I would need to make a qualified decision.

Those are valid questions and worth discussing, just not in the middle of the game thread. Start a thread that asks "Why can't Malachi get off the bench?" or one that digs into "Why does Buddy get yanked the minute he shows any sign of struggling?" We don't have a thread limit. The only time threads get merged is if they're essentially the same thing or if someone started a new one without realizing one already exists about basically the same thing.

Again, all I'm saying is let the game thread BE THE GAME THREAD.

 

[andjel]

The minutes distribution isn't the biggest problem. It's how they're being used during the time they're on the court. Fox is playing 25minutes but he's hardly used on the offensive end. This guys skill set made him one of the best players in a loaded draft and he's being used like he's some random scrub. He has incredible speed, footwork, cross over moves and a tight handle but his job on this team is to bring the ball up the court, pass it to a big and then stand on the other side of the court while they go to work. Minutes do not equal opportunities if you aren't used correctly. He's not really learning anything in the role the coach has him playing. Watching ZBo back guys down or Hill splash 3's doesn't teach Fox anything. He needs the ok from the coach to be able to go out there and be De'Aaron Fox and right now he's not allowed to be that guy.

That is valid concern regarding the pace, and I agree with observation that pace and folks he is mostly on the court with are not good fit for his game today.

I do not agree that he is learning nothing.
He will never have problems with speed. Learning how to play half-court offense is a must for any PG that wants to be in playoffs one day.
The defense is a also a half of the game, much trickier to measure since it is a team effort and probably only coach knows if he is executing well the plan.

 

[andjel]

That's what I've been saying too. Minutes don't necessarily equate to learning if you aren't put in a position where you can succeed rather than working on your weaknesses now, when you haven't even figured out if you belong in the league and whether there is a role for the player moving forward.

Stuff you listed is primarily coaches job (where do you belong in the league and what role will you be playing), not players.
They can make mistakes.
However, player will know the best if what coaches are selling is bad for them.
If Fox is confused and does not believe in coaches, that would be an issue. I did not see anything in Fox behavior that shows that. Will keep watching.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Bull. Joerger isn't just trying to eke out wins. He's trying to show the kids HOW TO WIN and even more importantly HOW NOT TO LOSE. Veterans are a necessary part of those lessons. We have a lot of really young players on our team who are all used to being big fish in small ponds. They're now learning how different it is in the big pond and how they need to learn TEAM play more now than ever before, but especially kids who were one and done in college. Joerger has excellent credentials in that regard.

You guys really don't need to pollute every game thread with the sane tired refrain, ESPECIALLY IN A WIN. We all know how you feel, since you've made it clear repeatedly.

You want the kids to run the team and if they win so be it? Yeah, well they won't. And they won't learn how to win. And they won't learn how to keep from losing. Those are lessons you learn by playing with more experienced players.

Joerger's interview just a couple of minutes ago addressed this some. Grant suggested he was trying to win every game, Joerger suggested he's trying to do what's best for the franchise. What I inferred from this was there are probably times he rolls the dice on some of the young guys giving them opportunity at times to grow that he may have not have if it was 100% about wins & loses.

So that's why we see such a variety of minutes for the guys. He went into detail some about no other team in the league plays so many youngsters as much. He really is trying to do what he thinks is best every night, balanced by the vets some. Key here is some.

Brought up how Buddy played bad defensively in a recent game, so he got taken out, next thing you know he is working really hard to do what the coach wanted the next game.

 

[dude12]

Joerger's interview just a couple of minutes ago addressed this some. Grant suggested he was trying to win every game, Joerger suggested he's trying to do what's best for the franchise. What I inferred from this was there are probably times he rolls the dice on some of the young guys giving them opportunity at times to grow that he may have not have if it was 100% about wins & loses.

So that's why we see such a variety of minutes for the guys. He went into detail some about no other team in the league plays so many youngsters as much. He really is trying to do what he thinks is best every night, balanced by the vets some. Key here is some.

Brought up how Buddy played bad defensively in a recent game, so he got taken out, next thing you know he is working really hard to do what the coach wanted the next game.

The last line is what has been apparent to me that others just don't want to acknowledge. Joerger has a group of guys who respond to this tactic. Old school instead of just giving minutes because they are 1st round picks. It's going to pay off.......may be paying off as of late.

 

[VF21]

Joerger's interview just a couple of minutes ago addressed this some. Grant suggested he was trying to win every game, Joerger suggested he's trying to do what's best for the franchise. What I inferred from this was there are probably times he rolls the dice on some of the young guys giving them opportunity at times to grow that he may have not have if it was 100% about wins & loses.

So that's why we see such a variety of minutes for the guys. He went into detail some about no other team in the league plays so many youngsters as much. He really is trying to do what he thinks is best every night, balanced by the vets some. Key here is some.

Brought up how Buddy played bad defensively in a recent game, so he got taken out, next thing you know he is working really hard to do what the coach wanted the next game.

The carrot and the stick approach has worked well for a very long time.

 

[kingsfan1984]

I think the reality is that sides will be divided by something else. I forget when I came back on here exactly but it's been something that divides the board. Tyreke, IT, Karl/Cousins, Cousins. I recall the Malone firing uniting the board for a period of time.

To clarify i mean united on the desirability of winning

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

Team is on the road. Second night of a back to back. George Hill plays great after dealing with a serious personal loss. And the Kings win. I can't remember the last time this has happened. I log in here and see the usual suspects doing what they do.

I went through this game thread and put every negative response on ignore Sunshine and rainbows baby!

Yep, I think that is the way to go.

 

[CVKingsfan]

I so totally agree. I think those of us who want to talk about the positives are just gonna have to ignore those who just can't stand it. I love the game of basketball and I LOVE THIS TEAM. At this point, I'm gonna keep rooting for them with all my heart. I like what I'm seeing and I love watching the young players start to figure it all out. I like Dave Joerger and I like Vlade. In fact, there's really not much about this team right now that I don't like. I'm done letting the naysayers get under my skin. They aren't going to dampen my enthusiasm.

GO KINGS!!

Thank you! (a million times!)

 

[ppine]

You can see it many different ways, but the Kings have made rapid progress and are heading in the right direction. They are winning close games and show up at the end in all their games. They are more watchable than they have been in years. They have gained a lot of confidence in the last few weeks. Randolph is the anti-Boogie.

 

[KingsFanGER]

...sigh... ONE THREAD. That's all I'm talking about. The game thread, the one thread that is real time.

As far as your question about Malachi goes, he played well in one game. That's great. Maybe because he hasn't played a lot he wasn't ready for the second game of a back-to-back on the road. I trust Joerger. I don't second guess him in things like that because I have no access to the kind of knowledge/information I would need to make a qualified decision.

Those are valid questions and worth discussing, just not in the middle of the game thread. Start a thread that asks "Why can't Malachi get off the bench?" or one that digs into "Why does Buddy get yanked the minute he shows any sign of struggling?" We don't have a thread limit. The only time threads get merged is if they're essentially the same thing or if someone started a new one without realizing one already exists about basically the same thing.

Again, all I'm saying is let the game thread BE THE GAME THREAD.

Can you please tell me, where it is written in the board rules, that users are not allowed to write opinions, that VF21 and some other users dont like, in certain threads and that those opinions count as pollution?

Im sorry but this board has become an incredibly hostile place, because people arent debating their points anymore, but labeling each other.

And by acting the way you do, you are strongly encouraging a behaviour, where everyone who doesnt agree with you and a bunch of other guys, is labeled a whiner, complainer, a debby downer and of course "not a true Fan".

I enjoy debates. I love reading stuff which goes against my own line of thinking. But i dont like it, when everytime doubts are expressed somebody comes around and talks down to other users.

Most critical fans are well spoken and polite. We even had one, who stopped posting because he didnt want to bother other users with his critical opinions.
Please stop acting like the positive Fans are some kind of victims, drowning in an ocean of pointless complaints. Thats only encouraging other users to talk down and belittle every critical fan, which makes this board nearly unbearable at times.

 

[dude12]

Can you please tell me, where it is written in the board rules, that users are not allowed to write opinions, that VF21 and some other users dont like, in certain threads and that those opinions count as pollution?

Im sorry but this board has become an incredibly hostile place, because people arent debating their points anymore, but labeling each other.

And by acting the way you do, you are strongly encouraging a behaviour, where everyone who doesnt agree with you and a bunch of other guys, is labeled a whiner, complainer, a debby downer and of course "not a true Fan".

I enjoy debates. I love reading stuff which goes against my own line of thinking. But i dont like it, when everytime doubts are expressed somebody comes around and talks down to other users.

Most critical fans are well spoken and polite. We even had one, who stopped posting because he didnt want to bother other users with his critical opinions.
Please stop acting like the positive Fans are some kind of victims, drowning in an ocean of pointless complaints. Thats only encouraging other users to talk down and belittle every critical fan, which makes this board nearly unbearable at times.

I think the,problem is that in the game threads going back a few weeks, it was the same people posting the same concerns every game......and never ever posted anywhere else except on game thread. You can figure it out.

Even with the Cousins and Karl heated threads on game days, people were excited when the team won. The game threads were being over run by the tank crowd. There is a whole thread devoted to like minded people to complain about it. I don't see the problem with this. Why would I go into the rebuild thread and just troll it endlessly? I don't as well as others who are trying to be respectful of those views.

 

[SacTownKid]

Probably none, and there should not be any.

Unless I am missing something, there is no team that has 4 rookies and 4 second year players that have potential to be part of the Kings future (not even counting Giles yet).
How will you test that crazy amount of potential without platoon minutes?
As I mentioned, if the next year we have the same story, than what you wrote is applicable. Not this year.

The same goes for minutes. There is NO established starters for the future, and Kings are not playing for winning right now. I actually prefer inconsistencies in minutes for all younglings (beside maybe BB) so they can show what they can do with bench mentality as well as starters mentality.

Not all rookies are equal on this squad or any squad. Fox, Buddy, and Bogdan due to his contract all have a higher potential or value expectation associated with them and they are still in the same rotation muck everybody else is. The closest situation to where the Kings are at is that of the Lakers and since they ditched the Dengs and Mozgovs of the world they are looking like they have a much brighter road ahead. I'm OK with giving the vets more burn to see if maybe you even might move some of that young talent to win now. I said before the start of the year I wouldn't mind them getting a run, but as it sits, that rotation management chart looks utterly non-committal.

The Kings are not playing for winning? I disagree. Subbing in Randolph to save the day is about as short term winning as you can get. I'll admit he's doing a darn good job too. I'd have to say I don't think we ever even saw Cuz this dominant as a scorer. It's totally bizarre. The fact is though that Joergers boosting his record against teams that the well experienced Kings starters should absolutely blister, and for the most part they aren't doing that.

And you might prefer it but it breaks teams eventually, even winning ones. It also stymies development.

 

[VF21]

Can you please tell me, where it is written in the board rules, that users are not allowed to write opinions, that VF21 and some other users dont like, in certain threads and that those opinions count as pollution?

Im sorry but this board has become an incredibly hostile place, because people arent debating their points anymore, but labeling each other.

And by acting the way you do, you are strongly encouraging a behaviour, where everyone who doesnt agree with you and a bunch of other guys, is labeled a whiner, complainer, a debby downer and of course "not a true Fan".

I enjoy debates. I love reading stuff which goes against my own line of thinking. But i dont like it, when everytime doubts are expressed somebody comes around and talks down to other users.

Most critical fans are well spoken and polite. We even had one, who stopped posting because he didnt want to bother other users with his critical opinions.
Please stop acting like the positive Fans are some kind of victims, drowning in an ocean of pointless complaints. Thats only encouraging other users to talk down and belittle every critical fan, which makes this board nearly unbearable at times.

1. Board rules? Check rule 1a.
2. ONE THREAD. That's all that's being referred to.
3. Your exaggerations are laughable. I have never used "not a true Fan" and have, on occasion, given people warnings and infraction points for making those kinds of comments.
4. You are wrong about the one person you think quit because he didn't want to bother other users.
5. I've moderated this forum since 2001. It's not a perfect science and it's not easy but it's something I do to the best of my ability because of my love for the Kings and my love of the Kings' fans. See rule 11.
6. I'm glad you enjoy debates and all that goes with it. All I'm saying is that there is a place and time for debates and it's pretty much EVERYWHERE EXCEPT the game thread.
7. If you have further questions about how I moderate, please feel free to use the "conversation" system. Thank you.