[Game] Kings @ Nets-Wed Dec 20th-4:30p

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VF21

#KingsFansForever
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That's a terrible way to approach young players imo. Produce as much as a 10 year veteran and don't mess up or don't play. The only way for young players to find rhythms and work out their kinks is to play solid minutes consecutively to figure things out and build confidence. Giving a guy 30 minutes one night then barely playing him the next does absolutely nothing for development and only makes a player put more pressure on themselves than they need.
How do you know "the only way" is your way? I'm seeing a team come together with cohesiveness and respect. The kids know they have to earn their minutes. They also know they're up against seasoned veterans. The way some of you talk it's like the youngun's are so fragile they cannot take having to prove their worth. I'm sorry but that's not real life ... or the NBA.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
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Never seen so much sour grapes after a win.
I so totally agree. I think those of us who want to talk about the positives are just gonna have to ignore those who just can't stand it. I love the game of basketball and I LOVE THIS TEAM. At this point, I'm gonna keep rooting for them with all my heart. I like what I'm seeing and I love watching the young players start to figure it all out. I like Dave Joerger and I like Vlade. In fact, there's really not much about this team right now that I don't like. I'm done letting the naysayers get under my skin. They aren't going to dampen my enthusiasm.

GO KINGS!!
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
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Wow, a bunch of complaining about the second win in a row on the second night of a back to back against a team with a better record than us. This forum is something else. We are 5-5 in the last 10. Only two of our players where in the minus. We went 2-2 on the road with a big home stand coming. We are only 4 games back of the 8th seed behind our former player. Pretty dam good work if you ask me. But people here think we should be tanking. Pathetic!
NO. It's not the forum. It's the handful of people who are the loudest and most vocal and seem unable to let a positive comment go by without shooting it down. It stinks...and it's precisely why at least one of the boards devoted to the Kings is no longer around. It's not gonna happen here.
 
I so totally agree. I think those of us who want to talk about the positives are just gonna have to ignore those who just can't stand it. I love the game of basketball and I LOVE THIS TEAM. At this point, I'm gonna keep rooting for them with all my heart. I like what I'm seeing and I love watching the young players start to figure it all out. I like Dave Joerger and I like Vlade. In fact, there's really not much about this team right now that I don't like. I'm done letting the naysayers get under my skin. They aren't going to dampen my enthusiasm.

GO KINGS!!
Yeah I have a small group of members on ignore and it makes a world of difference.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
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Yeah, all of us in the "lin brigade" have been pretty insufferable lately, I admit it.

I'm gonna keep it out of the game/postgame threads from here on out though!

Happy for all of you who can be happy for a win (not snark. I was like you all once, and I'll be one of you again next season)!

Honestly, I hate rooting against our guys (I'm pretty sure all of us linners do, we are Kings fans after all), I just reeeeealllly want that top 5 pick.

Anyways, I'll catch my fellow ping pong piners in the rebuild strategy thread. I think that's where we belong this season! ;)
That would be wonderful. Have you guys who are rooting for LINS seen the number of people who say they rarely post because of all the negativity? THAT'S NOT FAIR and it's not what KF has ever been.

Post all your negativity in the Rebuild Strategy thread. I promised I wouldn't post in there except if required to do so because of MOD reasons. I think most people who are trying to enjoy this year feel exactly the same way. Cricitism is one thing but the constant and never-ending bashing of various players, the coach, the front office, etc. has just gone too far.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
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I'm team "Let the young guys actually run the team and if wins come from that, then so be it"

Buddy balls out last night, gets 16 minutes? Malachi DNP after a strong showing?

George Hill- 35 minutes
ZBO- 26 minutes
Temple- 28 minutes
Koufos- 21 minutes

....

Buddy- 16 minutes
Skal- 12 minutes
Frank (with no Fox I might add, great opportunity to get him some extended run) - 16 minutes
JJ- 20 minutes
Bogdan- 33 minutes
WCS- 30 minutes

Simply just drives me up a wall. None of the top 4 guys are going to be on the team in 2 years. Hell maybe not even next year. We're trying to figure out if any of the guys on the bottom row CAN be long-time Kings for the foreseeable future. Joerger is driving me nuts trying to eek out worthless wins riding players who have 0 future with the Kings. This is what fans are mad about... not actually winning games but the players we are doing it with.
Bull. Joerger isn't just trying to eke out wins. He's trying to show the kids HOW TO WIN and even more importantly HOW NOT TO LOSE. Veterans are a necessary part of those lessons. We have a lot of really young players on our team who are all used to being big fish in small ponds. They're now learning how different it is in the big pond and how they need to learn TEAM play more now than ever before, but especially kids who were one and done in college. Joerger has excellent credentials in that regard.

You guys really don't need to pollute every game thread with the sane tired refrain, ESPECIALLY IN A WIN. We all know how you feel, since you've made it clear repeatedly.

You want the kids to run the team and if they win so be it? Yeah, well they won't. And they won't learn how to win. And they won't learn how to keep from losing. Those are lessons you learn by playing with more experienced players.
 
The challenge with lins is that the parameters are so restrictive that there really are only going to be a handful of lins a year (in other words ,not much opportunity to celebrate).

From what I gather the parameters of a lin are: 1) veterans can not play for more than 20 or so minutes and can not contribute to a lin; 2) the Kings can not be blown out; 3) one or more of the young players must have a breakout game; 4) the game must be close, but even if it is close, if they lose to a bad team, then the young players suck or will never develop.

I'm probably missing some rules, but Goldilocks had more possibilities for satisfaction than those looking for lins.
 

VF21

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MOD NOTE: I just adjusted the name of the "Rebuild Strategy" thread. You "naysayers" have your own thread now. Please take full advantage of it. And no, that doesn't mean all your criticisms have to go there. You guys aren't stupid. You know the difference between "Wow. Fox sure didn't have a good game. Maybe he should stay coming off the bench" and "Wow. Z-Bo played great. BUT WHY? Joerger is just trying for meaningless wins that will ruin our team forever. DAMN HIM!" Get my gist?
 
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VF21

#KingsFansForever
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is it though? Fox is a perfect example of a player who gets his minutes and starts, but is mostly a spectator on the court and the coaching staff is trying to turn him into a facilitator but that's not the type of PG he is.
Here's the deal. You aren't at the practices. You don't know what the coaching staff is working on and you don't know what he's actually doing during practice. There is every chance he is working very hard on honing his skills to be a more rounded point guard.

You can't have it both ways. Point guards take YEARS to truly develop. Fox is a little puppy. He's got a long way to go to reach his full potential and I'm pretty certain the coaches have a lot better feel of what his skills are and what that potential really is.

Give him and the team a chance to truly develop before you file him away in a restrictive pigeonhole. :)
 
NO. It's not the forum. It's the handful of people who are the loudest and most vocal and seem unable to let a positive comment go by without shooting it down. It stinks...and it's precisely why at least one of the boards devoted to the Kings is no longer around. It's not gonna happen here.
It's not a handful. Sactownroyalty is in the midst of 600+ comment post game thread where they're arguing about this. One of their writers recently made an article where they used the same buzzwords you all use and it was ridiculed. The Kings subreddit is irate right about now and in a doom or gloom phase. This place is the most evenly split on the subject. I can't speak for the casual fanbase, but for the fans who are dedicated enough to post on the various message boards this is the general opinion.

Bull. Joerger isn't just trying to eke out wins. He's trying to show the kids HOW TO WIN and even more importantly HOW NOT TO LOSE. Veterans are a necessary part of those lessons. We have a lot of really young players on our team who are all used to being big fish in small ponds. They're now learning how different it is in the big pond and how they need to learn TEAM play more now than ever before, but especially kids who were one and done in college. Joerger has excellent credentials in that regard.

You guys really don't need to pollute every game thread with the sane tired refrain, ESPECIALLY IN A WIN. We all know how you feel, since you've made it clear repeatedly.

You want the kids to run the team and if they win so be it? Yeah, well they won't. And they won't learn how to win. And they won't learn how to keep from losing. Those are lessons you learn by playing with more experienced players.
I mean, the vets have spearheaded an 11-20 campaign so far. How much can you teach how to win on what's still a bad basketball team?
 
Here's the deal. You aren't at the practices. You don't know what the coaching staff is working on and you don't know what he's actually doing during practice. There is every chance he is working very hard on honing his skills to be a more rounded point guard.

You can't have it both ways. Point guards take YEARS to truly develop. Fox is a little puppy. He's got a long way to go to reach his full potential and I'm pretty certain the coaches have a lot better feel of what his skills are and what that potential really is.

Give him and the team a chance to truly develop before you file him away in a restrictive pigeonhole. :)
IMO development generally take place during practice and the off season anyway. Games are where the tires meet the road.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
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It's not a handful. Sactownroyalty is in the midst of 600+ comment post game thread where they're arguing about this. One of their writers recently made an article where they used the same buzzwords you all use and it was ridiculed. The Kings subreddit is irate right about now and in a doom or gloom phase. This place is the most evenly split on the subject. I can't speak for the casual fanbase, but for the fans who are dedicated enough to post on the various message boards this is the general opinion.



I mean, the vets have spearheaded an 11-20 campaign so far. How much can you teach how to win on what's still a bad basketball team?
This board is not and never has been SactownRoyalty.

As for your second comment, the team is starting to win games they used to lose. That's progress even if you do not want to acknowledge it.
 
This board is not and never has been SactownRoyalty.

As for your second comment, the team is starting to win games they used to lose. That's progress even if you do not want to acknowledge it.
The Kings are 7-7 over their last 14 games, and 5-4 in their last 9 road games. That would qualify as improvement. And the kids have had a big part in those results. Just in case anyone was wondering, the Kings have played more road games than anyone else in the league.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
Here's the deal. You aren't at the practices. You don't know what the coaching staff is working on and you don't know what he's actually doing during practice. There is every chance he is working very hard on honing his skills to be a more rounded point guard.

You can't have it both ways. Point guards take YEARS to truly develop. Fox is a little puppy. He's got a long way to go to reach his full potential and I'm pretty certain the coaches have a lot better feel of what his skills are and what that potential really is.

Give him and the team a chance to truly develop before you file him away in a restrictive pigeonhole. :)
You don't become a rounded point guard if you can't even use the strengths in a pro game. You worry about rounding out as you figure out what works and doesn't and it's hard to tell right now. I have patience, I get it, he is 19....it's just that I'm not liking the way he is being utilized. Is that such a bad thing to criticize?
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
The Kings are 7-7 over their last 14 games, and 5-4 in their last 9 road games. That would qualify as improvement. And the kids have had a big part in those results. Just in case anyone was wondering, the Kings have played more road games than anyone else in the league.
19 of em....couldn't believe it when I heard it from Ian
 
This board is not and never has been SactownRoyalty.

As for your second comment, the team is starting to win games they used to lose. That's progress even if you do not want to acknowledge it.
So what? My point was that the dedicated fanbase by and large feels the same way but you want to insist that it's just a few loud voices here.

Progress? We go through this every year. The last two years they had stretches of .500ish ball for 15-20 games. Terrible teams like the Nets and Lakers have done this too over the past few years. Such is the NBA. I wouldn't call it progress when it gets repeated every year.
 
Reading some posts, the impression is that veterans are logging a ton of minutes holding back younglings that are being spoon fed minute here and there.

Min per game over the whole season so far:

Hill 26:22
Randolph 26:01
WCS 25:18
Fox 25:08
Temple 24:52
BB 24:51
Hield 22:48
Mason 18:49
Jackson 18:40
KK 18:24
Skal 15:50
Vince 13:22
Malachi 11:47

So which player exactly is deprived of the minutes to learn how to play NBA game?

I am very happy with the above platoon distribution balance of learning to play and earning the play time, while coach is evaluating what he has.
If this is the time distribution at the same time next season, I would be upset. Not this year.
The minutes distribution isn't the biggest problem. It's how they're being used during the time they're on the court. Fox is playing 25minutes but he's hardly used on the offensive end. This guys skill set made him one of the best players in a loaded draft and he's being used like he's some random scrub. He has incredible speed, footwork, cross over moves and a tight handle but his job on this team is to bring the ball up the court, pass it to a big and then stand on the other side of the court while they go to work. Minutes do not equal opportunities if you aren't used correctly. He's not really learning anything in the role the coach has him playing. Watching ZBo back guys down or Hill splash 3's doesn't teach Fox anything. He needs the ok from the coach to be able to go out there and be De'Aaron Fox and right now he's not allowed to be that guy.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
The minutes distribution isn't the biggest problem. It's how they're being used during the time they're on the court. Fox is playing 25minutes but he's hardly used on the offensive end. This guys skill set made him one of the best players in a loaded draft and he's being used like he's some random scrub. He has incredible speed, footwork, cross over moves and a tight handle but his job on this team is to bring the ball up the court, pass it to a big and then stand on the other side of the court while they go to work. Minutes do not equal opportunities if you aren't used correctly. He's not really learning anything in the role the coach has him playing. Watching ZBo back guys down or Hill splash 3's doesn't teach Fox anything. He needs the ok from the coach to be able to go out there and be De'Aaron Fox and right now he's not allowed to be that guy.
That's what I've been saying too. Minutes don't necessarily equate to learning if you aren't put in a position where you can succeed rather than working on your weaknesses now, when you haven't even figured out if you belong in the league and whether there is a role for the player moving forward.
 
So what? My point was that the dedicated fanbase by and large feels the same way but you want to insist that it's just a few loud voices here.

Progress? We go through this every year. The last two years they had stretches of .500ish ball for 15-20 games. Terrible teams like the Nets and Lakers have done this too over the past few years. Such is the NBA. I wouldn't call it progress when it gets repeated every year.
VF is just trying to say that there is another thread for like minded fans who are hating this process.
 
The minutes distribution isn't the biggest problem. It's how they're being used during the time they're on the court. Fox is playing 25minutes but he's hardly used on the offensive end. This guys skill set made him one of the best players in a loaded draft and he's being used like he's some random scrub. He has incredible speed, footwork, cross over moves and a tight handle but his job on this team is to bring the ball up the court, pass it to a big and then stand on the other side of the court while they go to work. Minutes do not equal opportunities if you aren't used correctly. He's not really learning anything in the role the coach has him playing. Watching ZBo back guys down or Hill splash 3's doesn't teach Fox anything. He needs the ok from the coach to be able to go out there and be De'Aaron Fox and right now he's not allowed to be that guy.
If you listen to Joerger's comments pre- and post-game, it's not clear that the bolded statement is accurate. Joerger talks a lot about wanting Fox and others to push the pace and run more. So the question is "is he not allowed to be that guy," is he not comfortable being that guy, or is it something else that is preventing him from being that guy (one poster suggested the lack of defensive rebounds is preventing a more uptempo game).
 
If you listen to Joerger's comments pre- and post-game, it's not clear that the bolded statement is accurate. Joerger talks a lot about wanting Fox and others to push the pace and run more. So the question is "is he not allowed to be that guy," is he not comfortable being that guy, or is it something else that is preventing him from being that guy (one poster suggested the lack of defensive rebounds is preventing a more uptempo game).
I touched on this in the rebuild thread but I can't find the post at the moment.

Joerger is always talking about wanting Fox to push the pace and he's constantly yelling at him to push the pace while he's on the court. But how exactly is that good, NBA level coaching? You can't just fast break all game. You need numbers on your side for that. Don Nelson teams played fast paced but they also didn't run a slow churning high post offense with the bigs in ISO situations all game either. So which is it? If Joerger wants them to play fast, then he needs to install a fast paced system like George Karl's system. If he wants them to grind it out, then keep on using the high post system. But don't just yell at your star rookie and tell the media that he needs to run more when the system doesn't allow it.

What good is Fox running to the other end of the court going to do when there are a bunch of defenders down there waiting for him? He can't just take on entire teams by himself. He runs when he has numbers but there's no point in running when there is a wall of defenders awaiting you. That's where Joerger comes into play because now you can't just improvise your way past 3 defenders all game. You need help and that help should come from the coaching staff. Make it easier on these guys to play fast. Get Fox 1 on 1 in ISO situations like they do with ZBo all game. Get Koufos and Papa out there setting screens for him to get him a step on his defender. Get him in situations that compliment his skill set and we will finally see this kid start to grow. The current formula of having these guys play a slow paced system while yelling at them to run is basically just saying "hurry up and wait", which is confusing as hell. The Kings aren't dead last in pace because of Fox. They're dead last in pace because of Joerger.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
If you listen to Joerger's comments pre- and post-game, it's not clear that the bolded statement is accurate. Joerger talks a lot about wanting Fox and others to push the pace and run more. So the question is "is he not allowed to be that guy," is he not comfortable being that guy, or is it something else that is preventing him from being that guy (one poster suggested the lack of defensive rebounds is preventing a more uptempo game).
It's quite simple if you really watch the game. Fox feels he needs to defer to Zach and constantly feed him or he will get a earful from the vet. I've seen him clap and ask for the ball on numerous occasions and the rookies comply.
 
As a side note, the fanbase will be united in rooting for wins next year in 2018. While wins this year fall in a bit of gray area as far as desirability, next year we will all be unified!
My sentiments exactly. I had already decided that at least one positive ( if there are any ) of not having a pick in 2019: At least all the fans will be unanimously pulling for a win every game.
 
As a side note, the fanbase will be united in rooting for wins next year in 2018. While wins this year fall in a bit of gray area as far as desirability, next year we will all be unified!
I think the reality is that sides will be divided by something else. I forget when I came back on here exactly but it's been something that divides the board. Tyreke, IT, Karl/Cousins, Cousins. I recall the Malone firing uniting the board for a period of time.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
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I think the reality is that sides will be divided by something else. I forget when I came back on here exactly but it's been something that divides the board. Tyreke, IT, Karl/Cousins, Cousins. I recall the Malone firing uniting the board for a period of time.
There's been an issue to divide us as far back as I can remember. Mitch Richmond traded for Chris Webber. Should Webber resign? Webber or Peja? Ron Artest?!?!? Why did they expose Gerald Wallace to the expansion draft?!?!?! The only thing that never divided us until people became so micro-involved in arm chair GM was winning v. tanking.
 
Bull. Joerger isn't just trying to eke out wins. He's trying to show the kids HOW TO WIN and even more importantly HOW NOT TO LOSE. Veterans are a necessary part of those lessons. We have a lot of really young players on our team who are all used to being big fish in small ponds. They're now learning how different it is in the big pond and how they need to learn TEAM play more now than ever before, but especially kids who were one and done in college. Joerger has excellent credentials in that regard.

You guys really don't need to pollute every game thread with the sane tired refrain, ESPECIALLY IN A WIN. We all know how you feel, since you've made it clear repeatedly.

You want the kids to run the team and if they win so be it? Yeah, well they won't. And they won't learn how to win. And they won't learn how to keep from losing. Those are lessons you learn by playing with more experienced players.
Really? Pollute?

This isn't the "same old tired refrain." It's a legitimate gripe that there's ZERO consistency with our young guys getting minutes, especially after they have strong games. Buddy scores 24 points on great shooting, gets 0 leash when he struggles in this game. Same thing happened with Frank. I missed the 2nd half of the Sixers game, but from what I read, Malachi had a nice impact on our comeback and he can't even get off the bench. How does that help his development? How does that help any of their development?
 
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