[Game] Kings @ Mavericks, 3/05/2022 2pm Pacific 5pm Eastern

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Tetsujin said:
Charles Oakley, John Paxson, Horace Grant, Iceman George Gervin.


Hell, Orlando Woolridge average 23 points a game MJ's rookie season.


Also those early MJ teams all barely made it into the playoffs and got bounced by the Celtics and Pistons aside from the games where Michael Jordan was a supernova.

I mean, if your point is that De'Aaron Fox isn't, in fact, the greatest player of all time, I'll give you that. But it's not like MJ was playing 1 on 5 out there his entire career.
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I see Barnes, Haliburton, Holmes, Hield or Davion Mitchell at the level of those role players. In the case of Barnes and Haliburton even higher than that.

The point is that it is a lot easier to build a winning team around a star with a multidimensional impact in the game. The pool of role players in the league that complement his game is a lot bigger.
 
captain bill said:
We have 3 players who are legit NBA starters, the third is a wonderful person and great player but frequently disappears altogether, and our fourth best player is a rookie. If you want to complain about anyone today it’d be HB. If he has just an average game today we win
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HB doesn't just "disappear" of his own volition. He is "disappeared" - by the coach, perhaps, but especially by his teammates. Fox is averaging 18 FGA this year. HB has hit 18+ FGA four times in 66 games this year. That's absurd given that he's by far the most efficient non-big on the team - the best 3-pt guy AND the best at drawing/hitting foul shots. If you think it's exclusively or even mainly his doing that he only averages 11 FGA, you're just not paying attention.

TRUE SHOOTING %
HB - 63.2%
Tyrese - 57.5% (in Sac only)
Domantas - 59.5% (in Sac only)
Fox - 54.6%

OFFENSIVE WIN SHARES
HB - 4.7
Fox - 1.8

Yeah, I wish he would *demand* the ball more. That's not his way - and obviously not altogether a bad thing that it isn't. But he's not a main ball handler. The guys who are - especially Fox, Sabonis, and Davion - have GOT to look for him more.
 
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hgut said:
I see Barnes, Haliburton, Holmes, Hield or Davion Mitchell at the level of those role players. In the case of Barnes and Haliburton even higher than that.

The point is that it is a lot easier to build a winning team around a star with a multidimensional impact in the game. The pool of role players in the league that complement his game is a lot bigger.
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Not to be that guy but have you actually seen any of these guys play/bothered looking up their stats on BBallRef?

Charles Oakley and Horace Grant were BEASTS. Iceman is a Hall of Famer. I'll give you that Paxson is probably worse than Haliburton and Barnes but he'd probably be a 15 ppg scorer in the modern NBA.

To put things in perspective, the 1987-1988 Bulls only shot three 3-pointers a game but also had the best defense in the league on the backs of Charles Oakley and rookie Horace Grant clogging up the paint in a time when big men ruled the game.

Those early Bulls teams were pretty much built around defense while giving MJ the amount of touches needed for him to score enough points to win. (He averaged 35 points on 24.4 shots a game on 34% USG that season while also averaging 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks a game. He also played 40 minute a night without missing a game the entire season.).

Once again, if your point is that De'Aaron Fox isn't Michael Jordan, absolutely no one is arguing against that. But that's why Michael Jordan is considered one of the three greatest players of all time.
 
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Mr. S£im Citrus said:
When you have to elevate Richaun Holmes and Buddy Hield to the level of Horace Grant and George Gervin, in order to diminish De'Aaron Fox... :eek:
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To be fair, when your main "argument" (that absolutely no one is contesting) is that it's easier to build a team around the greatest player of all time than it is literally any other player in existence, there really is nowhere to go but down in the discussion.


(Although, as the Lakers have shown this year, even that can have its limits)
 
Tetsujin said:
Not to be that guy but have you actually seen any of these guys play/bothered looking up their stats on BBallRef?

Charles Oakley and Horace Grant were BEASTS. Iceman is a Hall of Famer. I'll give you that Paxson is probably worse than Haliburton and Barnes but he'd probably be a 15 ppg scorer in the modern NBA.

To put things in perspective, the 1987-1988 Bulls only shot three 3-pointers a game but also had the best defense in the league on the backs of Charles Oakley and rookie Horace Grant clogging up the paint in a time when big men ruled the game.

Those early Bulls teams were pretty much built around defense while giving MJ the amount of touches needed for him to score enough points to win. (He averaged 35 points on 24.4 shots a game on 34% USG that season while also averaging 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks a game. He also played 40 minute a night without missing a game the entire season.).

Once again, if your point is that De'Aaron Fox isn't Michael Jordan, absolutely no one is arguing against that. But that's why Michale Jordan is considered one of the three greatest players of all time.
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F7409F0F-4078-4261-BBD4-46D4DAE69950.jpeg
 
twslam07 said:
No, that's not right.

Sabonis is averaging 4.5 fouls per 36 min. Earlier this season in Indiana, he was averaging 3.2 fouls per 36 min. The year before that, 3.4 fouls. The year before that, 3.3. You'd have to go back to his 3rd year in the league to find a similar foul rate.

The league leader in fouls per game is Jae'Sean Tate at 3.7. Sabonis would be leading the league by quite a margin at 4.0 per game (32.3 mpg) if that foul rate kept up for a full year.

He's been fouling at an abnormally high rate since arriving in SAC.
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because our wing defenders can’t protect him.
 
Tetsujin said:
Not to be that guy but have you actually seen any of these guys play/bothered looking up their stats on BBallRef?

Charles Oakley and Horace Grant were BEASTS. Iceman is a Hall of Famer. I'll give you that Paxson is probably worse than Haliburton and Barnes but he'd probably be a 15 ppg scorer in the modern NBA.

To put things in perspective, the 1987-1988 Bulls only shot three 3-pointers a game but also had the best defense in the league on the backs of Charles Oakley and rookie Horace Grant clogging up the paint in a time when big men ruled the game.

Those early Bulls teams were pretty much built around defense while giving MJ the amount of touches needed for him to score enough points to win. (He averaged 35 points on 24.4 shots a game on 34% USG that season while also averaging 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks a game. He also played 40 minute a night without missing a game the entire season.).

Once again, if your point is that De'Aaron Fox isn't Michael Jordan, absolutely no one is arguing against that. But that's why Michael Jordan is considered one of the three greatest players of all time.
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KB02 taught me this is actually bad though. So was MJ actually not the GOAT??
 
kb02 said:
In that scenario, Hali would be the main ball handler, decreasing Fox’s usage. Hali and Domas connect while Fox just cuts and scores. I mean, sure, let’s trade for Hali, I’m all for it. Any other scenario where adding an above average player and allowing Fox to dominate the ball with Sabonis isn’t going to work unless they both miraculously improve their shooting outside the restricted area.
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A point you would think our highly paid GM would understand.
 
Tetsujin said:
Not to be that guy but have you actually seen any of these guys play/bothered looking up their stats on BBallRef?

Charles Oakley and Horace Grant were BEASTS. Iceman is a Hall of Famer. I'll give you that Paxson is probably worse than Haliburton and Barnes but he'd probably be a 15 ppg scorer in the modern NBA.

To put things in perspective, the 1987-1988 Bulls only shot three 3-pointers a game but also had the best defense in the league on the backs of Charles Oakley and rookie Horace Grant clogging up the paint in a time when big men ruled the game.

Those early Bulls teams were pretty much built around defense while giving MJ the amount of touches needed for him to score enough points to win. (He averaged 35 points on 24.4 shots a game on 34% USG that season while also averaging 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks a game. He also played 40 minute a night without missing a game the entire season.).

Once again, if your point is that De'Aaron Fox isn't Michael Jordan, absolutely no one is arguing against that. But that's why Michale Jordan is considered one of the three greatest players of all time.
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But you say on one side that MJ is one of the three greatest players of all time. And on the other side that he was able to reach the play offs only because he was surrounded by beasts and Hall of Famers ...

Let me ask you one question. Would we have reached the play offs this year if we had replaced Fox by MJ in his prime?
 
The_Jamal said:
KB02 taught me this is actually bad though. So was MJ actually not the GOAT??
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*Points to Lebron having a negligibly lower USG rate than MJ over their careers*
Well, there you have it folks. Undisputed evidence that Bron is clearly the GOAT.
 
hgut said:
But you say on one side that MJ is one of the three greatest players of all time. And on the other side that he was able to reach the play offs only because he was surrounded by beasts and Hall of Famers ...

Let me ask you one question. Would we have reached the play offs this year if we had replaced Fox by MJ in his prime?
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flat,800x800,075,f.jpg
 
Chupacabra said:
I don't know how or why we lose this one. I also don't understand diminishing Fox. Must be mad the FO chose Fox over Haliburton.
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The front office did not choose Fox over Haliburton.

They could not get enough value back for Fox ...
 
hgut said:
No, they offered Fox for Sabonis and the Pacers refused.
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Even if that's true (which I still can't recall being corroborated, outside of one writer for The Athletic, who primarily reports on NCAAM, with no known Kings or Pacers sources), it still doesn't prove the thesis that the Kings valued Haliburton over Fox. At a bare minimum, it suggests that they valued Sabonis over Haliburton.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Even if that's true (which I still can't recall being corroborated, outside of one writer for The Athletic, who primarily reports on NCAAM, with no known Kings or Pacers sources), it still doesn't prove the thesis that the Kings valued Haliburton over Fox. At a bare minimum, it suggests that they valued Sabonis over Haliburton.
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And Sabonis over Fox. (if that is true)
 
Why not have Harkless guarding Smith on that last play? I continue to see coaching ineptness on the defensive (and offensive) end of the floor. Not knowing how to guard the pick and roll. Doubling when there is no need to double. Sinking into the paint leaving the easy 3 point corner shot when there is no need (e.g. Justin Holiday).

As far as Fox is concerned, I think he played an All Star performance. Please mimic this kind of effort at the beginning of next season and you'll make me a happy camper, Mr. Fox.
 
Kingster said:
Why not have Harkless guarding Smith on that last play? I continue to see coaching ineptness on the defensive (and offensive) end of the floor. Not knowing how to guard the pick and roll. Doubling when there is no need to double. Sinking into the paint leaving the easy 3 point corner shot when there is no need (e.g. Justin Holiday).

As far as Fox is concerned, I think he played an All Star performance. Please mimic this kind of effort at the beginning of next season and you'll make me a happy camper, Mr. Fox.
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The team still has some holes, but should be good enough to beat this depleted Dallas team. Im also airing on the side of inept coaching. We're at full strength and our best player had one of his best games of the year. This needs to be a win.
 
hgut said:
And Sabonis over Fox. (if that is true)
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If, indeed. Point being, Haliburton was obviously not a dealbreaker, which suggests that McNair hadn't committed to Haliburton being part of his long-term plans. That certainly doesn't "prove" that he didn't try to trade Fox but, if he wanted Sabonis more than he wanted to get rid of Fox, it indicates that he at least thinks that he can still make Fox "happen."

I'm personally of the opinion that a Fox-for-Sabonis swap would have just re-created in Sacramento what was already failing in Indianapolis, but with a younger version of Malcolm Brogdon, and a head coach who isn't as good, so I'm not convinced that McNair was, in fact, intent on trading Fox.
 
The_Jamal said:
KB02 taught me this is actually bad though. So was MJ actually not the GOAT??
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Funny. Coming from the dude, who thinks McNair has two years to make the playoffs. Two yrs = 2024. Kings attendance is going to be a joke next year, because they don’t have a carrot to entice current and new season ticket holders. Vivek is totally going to be okay with that. Totally.
 
kb02 said:
Funny. Coming from the dude, who thinks McNair has two years to make the playoffs. Two yrs = 2024. Kings attendance is going to be a joke next year, because they don’t have a carrot to entice current and new season ticket holders. Vivek is totally going to be okay with that. Totally.
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We'll see on our bet at the deadline next year :D
 
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