[Game] Kings @ Mavericks, 3/05/2022 2pm Pacific 5pm Eastern

[pdxKingsFan]

I just don't get why people care about W/L's this year. It's never been about that. McNair told us that himself in his pressers and showed us by holding on to his future draft capital.

It seems clear they'd like to have crept into the play in but you nailed it that if they really wanted to go all in on THIS year, that pick would have been on the table and probably dealt along with Barnes to get that elusive 3/4 that pairs with Barnes. I had said all along that Monte was going to make sure when his coach got a chance the roster would be a lot more complete. There's at least two moves left to do and that's to get long term starters in the two slots that aren't Fox-Barnes-Sabonis. We've got a few guys that on a good team are capable of starting 20 games a year if needed and that can contribute meaningful minutes a night but they aren't starting level. But they are role guys that are better than we've had in a while, so if we can make those two moves and nail the coach I really could see this team contending for a home court first round series. Either way, with the coach and a quality pick they should be a 6 seed at minimum next year.

I was into going for the play-in immediately after the move but with other teams winning more than they should, New Orleans looking like Phoenix did two years ago in the bubble, and Lakers probably on the outside looking in when it's said and done, I just don't see much to get excited about in the play in. We'd creep into 10 at best and lose to NO in NO.

 

[coolhandluke]

Worth noting that today was loss 42, clinching our 15th straight losing season. Go Kings!

Please don't sell us short. It is our 16th straight losing season. We are now the sole owners of the NBA playoff drought record. Suck on that Clippers!

Trust me, it will make for a better redemption story.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Not only do we lose this game, but we also get "roasted" on national television by Jeff Van Gundy, who, during the Warriors-Fakers game tonight, made sure that those of us who were watching knew that, in the 36 season history of SACRAMENTO Kings basketball, only 8 of those saw us finishing with a winning record. To make things worse? He also went on to mention that our coach during those 8 seasons of winning SACRAMENTO Kings basketball was, you guessed it, RICK ADELMAN!!!

In other words, folks, Jeff Van Gundy pretty much said that WE (the SACRAMENTO Kings FRANCHISE) SUCK.

Before he opens his mouth, Van Gundy may want to consider whether this franchise might have a few more winning seasons under its belt if his brother hadn't screwed us over in that Kinko's. The remainder of my comments about where Van Gundy is welcome to shove any and all comments about our franchise will be omitted as this is a family board.

 

[serbiangoat]

I'm becoming less and less of a DDV fan. He's an absolute chucker with really poor shooting % this year. Anytime he launches a 3pt shot, I expect nothing less than a long rebound for the other team. He does so many great things, but I can't look past his chucking tendencies.

I agree he literally looks like he's on meth (not his physical appearance but the way he's hyper active) or something the way he plays and all I heard about him was how he was a high IQ player.......

 

[twslam07]

Was Sabonis often in foul trouble for the Pacers..or is this a new tax for being on the Kings?

Yes the guy plays as physical as anyone in the NBA and fights on every possession he's bound to every other game pick up a couple cheapies it just goes with his style, but I don't think it was anywhere near as bad as Cousins was for his first 4-5 seasons.

No, that's not right.

Sabonis is averaging 4.5 fouls per 36 min. Earlier this season in Indiana, he was averaging 3.2 fouls per 36 min. The year before that, 3.4 fouls. The year before that, 3.3. You'd have to go back to his 3rd year in the league to find a similar foul rate.

The league leader in fouls per game is Jae'Sean Tate at 3.7. Sabonis would be leading the league by quite a margin at 4.0 per game (32.3 mpg) if that foul rate kept up for a full year.

He's been fouling at an abnormally high rate since arriving in SAC.

 

[kb02]

No GM in their right mind would tell fans to "trust the process." It was no hedge; he said that he's building something sustainable, meaning long term, not short term.

I mean, how literal do you want him to be?

“I would say, our stated goal is the playoffs“. When it was stated, the Kings were and are still (sort of) within distance of the play in.

“Dave, we want to make the playoffs as quickly as we can…”. As quick as we can = the play-in this year.

Yhall think McNair has two yrs to figure this sh*t out? He has until the trade deadline next year. The Kings will have a losing record next year, if Fox and Sabonis continue to suck at shooting anything beyond shots in the restricted area and have the same amount of usage that they’re currently having. Why? They’re unbalanced. Yhall hoping for a 3 and D piece, better shooting, and/or another above average player? Doesn’t matter how much better the personnel is when your two highest usage players operate from the same area and one of them is still a below average connector.

 

[kb02]

I agree he literally looks like he's on meth (not his physical appearance but the way he's hyper active) or something the way he plays and all I heard about him was how he was a high IQ player.......

It’s Fox-itis. Buddy had it. Davion catches it from time to time. Domas is fighting it. DDV definitely has it. Fox speeds up the pace of the game. Sped up players look like they’re playing on meth.

 

[twslam07]

Doesn’t matter how much better the personnel is when your two highest usage players operate from the same area and one of them is still a below average connector.

You proposed a trade idea on this forum a few weeks ago that would ship Barnes out for a 1st and Hield/Bagley/Holmes for a 1st. You then wanted to reroute those two 1sts and one of our own unprotected 1sts for Sabonis leaving us with a roster of…

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Haliburton / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Harkless / Woodard
PF - Metu
C - Sabonis / Jones / Len / Thompson

Fox SAC USG% = .285
Sabonis SAC USG% = .238
Haliburton SAC USG% = .181


If you truly believe that it “doesn’t matter how much better the personnel is when your two highest usage players operate from the same area and one of them is still a below average connector,” why did you want to go after a Fox, Sabonis, and Haliburton core in the first place? By your definition, that core would have the same issue you called out above.

 

[kb02]

You proposed a trade idea on this forum a few weeks ago that would ship Barnes out for a 1st and Hield/Bagley/Holmes for a 1st. You then wanted to reroute those two 1sts and one of our own unprotected 1sts for Sabonis leaving us with a roster of…

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - Haliburton / Davis / Ramsey
SF - Harkless / Woodard
PF - Metu
C - Sabonis / Jones / Len / Thompson

Fox SAC USG% = .285
Sabonis SAC USG% = .238
Haliburton SAC USG% = .181


If you truly believe that it “doesn’t matter how much better the personnel is when your two highest usage players operate from the same area and one of them is still a below average connector,” why did you want to go after a Fox, Sabonis, and Haliburton core in the first place? By your definition, that core would have the same issue you called out above.

In that scenario, Hali would be the main ball handler, decreasing Fox’s usage. Hali and Domas connect while Fox just cuts and scores. I mean, sure, let’s trade for Hali, I’m all for it. Any other scenario where adding an above average player and allowing Fox to dominate the ball with Sabonis isn’t going to work unless they both miraculously improve their shooting outside the restricted area.

 

[DynaPamm]

Domas suddenly turning into a bad free throw shooter is bizarre.

I was like WWWHHHAAATTT where I usually feel very confident if or when he goes to the line

 

[twslam07]

In that scenario, Hali would be the main ball handler, decreasing Fox’s usage. Hali and Domas connect while Fox just cuts and scores. I mean, sure, let’s trade for Hali, I’m all for it. Any other scenario where adding an above average player and allowing Fox to dominate the ball with Sabonis isn’t going to work unless they both miraculously improve their shooting outside the restricted area.

Let’s get a little more specific…

When Fox and Haliburton were on the court together, this was their usage…

Fox = .276
Haliburton = .161

…and when Fox and Sabonis were on the court together, this was their usage…

Fox = .295
Sabonis = .245


Just to be clear (in attempt to avoid contradicting yourself), you’re saying you’d just give Haliburton more usage (in this hypothetical scenario) to the point where he overtakes one of Fox and Sabonis so you can claim that Fox and Sabonis are not the two highest usage players on the team anymore?

I think many here saw Haliburton take on more of the playmaking/PG role this year with Fox being more focused on scoring/being a SG and that still resulted in Fox having a USG% 11.5% higher than Halliburton’s. You really think you’re going to be able to arbitrarily reallocate that much usage to Haliburton to avoid contradicting yourself? More power to you. That’s quite the mental gymnastic exercise.

 

[sactowndog]

It seems clear they'd like to have crept into the play in but you nailed it that if they really wanted to go all in on THIS year, that pick would have been on the table and probably dealt along with Barnes to get that elusive 3/4 that pairs with Barnes. I had said all along that Monte was going to make sure when his coach got a chance the roster would be a lot more complete. There's at least two moves left to do and that's to get long term starters in the two slots that aren't Fox-Barnes-Sabonis. We've got a few guys that on a good team are capable of starting 20 games a year if needed and that can contribute meaningful minutes a night but they aren't starting level. But they are role guys that are better than we've had in a while, so if we can make those two moves and nail the coach I really could see this team contending for a home court first round series. Either way, with the coach and a quality pick they should be a 6 seed at minimum next year.

I was into going for the play-in immediately after the move but with other teams winning more than they should, New Orleans looking like Phoenix did two years ago in the bubble, and Lakers probably on the outside looking in when it's said and done, I just don't see much to get excited about in the play in. We'd creep into 10 at best and lose to NO in NO.

of course. No commitment to any strategy is how you end up around the 8 seed every year. I said it when Monte said we are keeping all roads open meant you were taking none: hence the 8 pick.

 

[kb02]

Let’s get a little more specific…

When Fox and Haliburton were on the court together, this was their usage…

Fox = .276
Haliburton = .161

…and when Fox and Sabonis were on the court together, this was their usage…

Fox = .295
Sabonis = .245


Just to be clear (in attempt to avoid contradicting yourself), you’re saying you’d just give Haliburton more usage (in this hypothetical scenario) to the point where he overtakes one of Fox and Sabonis so you can claim that Fox and Sabonis are not the two highest usage players on the team anymore?

I think many here saw Haliburton take on more of the playmaking/PG role this year with Fox being more focused on scoring/being a SG and that still resulted in Fox having a USG% 11.5% higher than Halliburton’s. You really think you’re going to be able to arbitrarily reallocate that much usage to Haliburton to avoid contradicting yourself? More power to you. That’s quite the mental gymnastic exercise.

The main ball handling would go to Hali. With Hali as the main decision maker, he’ll be able to allocate the ball to Sabonis, others, and Fox. If Domas gets the ball, he’ll further connect, looking for Hali as an outlet on the perimeter or to Fox as a cutter. The floor gets balanced. Since Fox and Sabonis will mostly occupy the same space, the ball will swing back out a decent amount to Hali. Thereby decreasing Fox’s usage and increasing Hali’s.

Your data just confirms what we already know, Fox is a ball stopper next to Hali, next to Domas, and next to everyone else in the league. Minimize his touches. Decrease his usage. Balance out the usage across the players. Hali and Domas makes others better. Fox produces at the expense of others.

 

[twslam07]

The main ball handling would go to Hali. With Hali as the main decision maker, he’ll be able to allocate the ball to Sabonis, others, and Fox. If Domas gets the ball, he’ll further connect, looking for Hali as an outlet on the perimeter or to Fox as a cutter. The floor gets balanced. Since Fox and Sabonis will mostly occupy the same space, the ball will swing back out a decent amount to Hali. Thereby decreasing Fox’s usage and increasing Hali’s.

Your data just confirms what we already know, Fox is a ball stopper next to Hali, next to Domas, and next to everyone else in the league. Minimize his touches. Decrease his usage. Balance out the usage across the players. Hali and Domas makes others better. Fox produces at the expense of others.

So do you think that among a Fox, Sabonis, & Haliburton core that Haliburton would be in the top two in USG%? You have to say “yes” to avoid contradicting yourself but just wanted to confirm that’s actually what you think would happen.

 

[kb02]

So do you think that among a Fox, Sabonis, & Haliburton core that Haliburton would be in the top two in USG%? You have to say “yes” to avoid contradicting yourself but just wanted to confirm that’s actually what you think would happen.

All these misinterpretations of what I mean by Hali’s usage. Hali would get more usage does not mean I’m saying Hali would have the highest usage on the team nor that he’ll even be in the top three. And citing usage %s for two pairings while implying that they would apply to three pairings is quite a jump. Makes me wonder just how much of a data guy you are. The sign of someone who has never generated any data, but rather a person who just grunts through data sources.

 

[twslam07]

All these misinterpretations of what I mean by Hali’s usage. Hali would get more usage does not mean I’m saying Hali would have the highest usage on the team nor that he’ll even be in the top three. And citing usage %s for two pairings while implying that they would apply to three pairings is quite a jump. Makes me wonder just how much of a data guy you are. The sign of someone who has never generated any data, but rather a person who just grunts through data sources.

Attacking me personally doesn’t strengthen your argument. A “data guy” would leave that type of emotion at the door where it belongs.

And got it. When you said…

doesn’t matter how much better the personnel is when your two highest usage players operate from the same area and one of them is still a below average connector

…you of course didn’t mean the universal definition of usage in the NBA world but you meant your own kb02 definition of usage. Again, I have to applaud the mental gymnastics to avoid contradicting yourself. Never change, kb02!

 

[hrdboild]

The main ball handling would go to Hali. With Hali as the main decision maker, he’ll be able to allocate the ball to Sabonis, others, and Fox. If Domas gets the ball, he’ll further connect, looking for Hali as an outlet on the perimeter or to Fox as a cutter. The floor gets balanced. Since Fox and Sabonis will mostly occupy the same space, the ball will swing back out a decent amount to Hali. Thereby decreasing Fox’s usage and increasing Hali’s.

Your data just confirms what we already know, Fox is a ball stopper next to Hali, next to Domas, and next to everyone else in the league. Minimize his touches. Decrease his usage. Balance out the usage across the players. Hali and Domas makes others better. Fox produces at the expense of others.

When a player "stops" the ball by throwing it into the basket 18 times in the same game, generally that player is called an MVP.

 

[Spike]

Michael Jordan in his prime never missed the playoffs. Was he always surrounded by elite role players? I don't think so. But it was a lot easier to build a team around him because the pool of role players that complemented him was a lot bigger.

Are we just letting this one go?

 

[kb02]

Attacking me personally doesn’t strengthen your argument. A “data guy” would leave that type of emotion at the door where it belongs.

And got it. When you said…



…you of course didn’t mean the universal definition of usage in the NBA world but you meant your own kb02 definition of usage. Again, I have to applaud the mental gymnastics to avoid contradicting yourself. Never change, kb02!

That’s actually pretty funny. You took my statement about Fox and Domas operating in the same area on the floor and as the two highest usage players on the team to try to prove your point that I was saying Hali would be amongst the two highest usage players on the floor with Fox and Domas. And especially so only after you brought Hali into the equation. Lolzzzz. Talk about mental gymnastics. Thx for the comedy. I needed that after a long run just now. Cherry on top.

 

[Tetsujin]

Are we just letting this one go?

Scottie Pippen? Burnt toast.
Dennis Rodman? Terrible.
Prime Toni Kukoc? More like Toni Poopoc.
Phil Jackson? Just some chump with a cabin in Montana.


There was literally just a documentary about how good that team was.

 

[kb02]

When a player "stops" the ball by throwing it into the basket 18 times in the same game, generally that player is called an MVP.

Yea, i think that same thing when some role playing opponent has a career night. Dinwoodie is surely destined for superstardom. Before that it was Lonnie Walker…

 

[Tetsujin]

If you wanted to make an argument about Lebron having nothing around him when the dragged the Cavs to the Finals for the first time, I'd totally be in that foxhole with you though.

 

[Spike]

Scottie Pippen? Burnt toast.
Dennis Rodman? Terrible.
Prime Toni Kukoc? More like Toni Poopoc.
Phil Jackson? Just some chump with a cabin in Montana.


There was literally just a documentary about how good that team was.

He couldn't get Washington into the playoffs.

 

[twslam07]

That’s actually pretty funny. You took my statement about Fox and Domas operating in the same area on the floor and as the two highest usage players on the team to try to prove your point that I was saying Hali would be amongst the two highest usage players on the floor with Fox and Domas. And especially so only after you brought Hali into the equation. Lolzzzz. Talk about mental gymnastics. Thx for the comedy. I needed that after a long run just now. Cherry on top.

• kb02 says "doesn’t matter how much better the personnel is when your two highest usage players operate from the same area and one of them is still a below average connector"
• twslam07 points out that kb02 was pushing for a Fox, Haliburton, & Sabonis core a few weeks ago and that Fox & Sabonis would very likely still be the two highest usage players on that team (highlighting kb02's contradiction)
• kb02 claims that he was using his own trademarked "kb02 usage" metric (not the universal usage metric used across the NBA)
• twslam07 tells kb02 to never change
• kb02 mentions that twslam07 has provided him comic relief

 

[Capt. Factorial]

• kb02 says "doesn’t matter how much better the personnel is when your two highest usage players operate from the same area and one of them is still a below average connector"
• twslam07 points out that kb02 was pushing for a Fox, Haliburton, & Sabonis core a few weeks ago and that Fox & Sabonis would very likely still be the two highest usage players on that team (highlighting kb02's contradiction)
• kb02 claims that he was using his own trademarked "kb02 usage" metric (not the universal usage metric used across the NBA)
• twslam07 tells kb02 to never change
• kb02 mentions that twslam07 has provided him comic relief

At this point, there is nothing useful left to be said in this argument, so I would recommend nobody say it.

 

[hgut]

Scottie Pippen? Burnt toast.
Dennis Rodman? Terrible.
Prime Toni Kukoc? More like Toni Poopoc.
Phil Jackson? Just some chump with a cabin in Montana.


There was literally just a documentary about how good that team was.

Chicago Bulls from 1984-1988.

 

[hgut]

He couldn't get Washington into the playoffs.

He was 38 years old then ... I don't think he was in his prime ...

 

[hgut]

if you’re expecting instant success, Sacramento is not the right franchise to be a fan of LOL

I have been following the Sacramento Kings since 2004. Believe me. I know ...

 

[Spike]

He was 38 years old then ... I don't think he was in his prime ...

So, Michael Jordan, not in his prime, without elite roleplayers, did not make the playoffs? I concede that you make an accurate argument, but I posit that it might not make the point you want it to make.

 

[Tetsujin]

Chicago Bulls from 1984-1988.

Charles Oakley, John Paxson, Horace Grant, Iceman George Gervin.


Hell, Orlando Woolridge average 23 points a game MJ's rookie season.


Also those early MJ teams all barely made it into the playoffs and got bounced by the Celtics and Pistons aside from the games where Michael Jordan was a supernova.

I mean, if your point is that De'Aaron Fox isn't, in fact, the greatest player of all time, I'll give you that. But it's not like MJ was playing 1 on 5 out there his entire career.