Kings/Jazz/Lakers

[Smills91]

No, Kwame is an above average post defender when it comes to man to man defense. That's basically why the lakers make such a big deal about him being hurt and basically playing on one ankle right now. Believe me, they value his defense so much to the point that they've said he was the key to their success at the end of the year when he was missing time with his ankle injury. I've seen him man up very well against Duncan, Garnett, Yao, Amare, JO, etc. If he's good at anything, he's definitely good at that. Being able to body up well with the best bigs in the game is an asset that the lakers do value.

Miller is a horrible defender no matter who he's playing with, sure any crappy defender in the post won't look as bad if they have a tim duncan there, but the lakers don't. They have a foul prone Turiaf and Bynum.

I don't care if the lakers won't ever get under the cap, they're still not going to trade a valuable expiring contract for a damn near unmovable contract unless that player is a 2 way all-star type player. They don't accept that bad contract in return for Brad Miller who's only getting older and slower.

I disagree...they made a big deal about Kwame being out because he's 7 feet and that's 1 of their 2 7 footers that can play. I just don't buy your argument becasue the Lakers would pee their pants over this offer. They know Kwame sucks and is nothing more than an EC. Since an EC is utterly useless in LA, they'd be VERY happy with this sort of offer. Kwame = 7 feet...that's his only value as a basketball player.

 

[Smills91]

No, no one has even remotely overrated Kwame on D. He's built like a tank, extremely strong and impossible to move in the post. Whether you see it or not, the Lakers value him for his excellent post defense and footwork. I would take Kwame over Miller right now (I know what Miller used to be, but he's getting older). Decent-average? Alot of Lakers fans would have your head right now if they saw this



Brad Miller cannot produce those kind of numbers anymore. If he could then we wouldn't be looking to move him so bad.

Over the last few weeks you've made a huge amount of trade threads, almost everyone of them lopsided or unrealistic. You overvalue our players and what they can do. Try to think about why the other team would do the trade and don't just think of the positives about a player because the other team can also see his weaknesses. The last thing the Lakers need to do is get even softer inside. BMiller is also getting injured alot, why would they take him essentially for Kwame?

Makes zero sense.

I don't know where you get this notion from, cuz he did it last year....he battled foot problems all year. Let him heal up and get a REAL coach and he's back to those career level numbers.

The Lakers REAL problem is having somebody that can facilitate the offense. The defense key in on Kobe/Lamar and that puts added offensive pressure on SMUSH? KWAME? WALTON? Please! That's TERRIBLE. If the Lakers improved their ability to score at a more efficient rate, they can slow the game down and hide defensive limitations that they have WITH OR WITHOUT KWAME/BRAD. It's irrelevant. The best way to improve you defense with poor defensive players is through BETTER offensive execution. Brad would give Kobe/Lamar et al at least 4-5 easy baskets a game through just his passing alone. His perimeter shooting would make the double teamers pay as well.

 

[hoopsfan]

I disagree...they made a big deal about Kwame being out because he's 7 feet and that's 1 of their 2 7 footers that can play. I just don't buy your argument becasue the Lakers would pee their pants over this offer. They know Kwame sucks and is nothing more than an EC. Since an EC is utterly useless in LA, they'd be VERY happy with this sort of offer. Kwame = 7 feet...that's his only value as a basketball player.

You are badly mistaken on that...but considering your sig. I would expect nothing less.

 

[nbrans]

I don't often take Smills91's side, but I agree with him on this one, at least on the basic idea. Kwame is a fine post defender, but I don't think in the future he's going to be all that valuable except as a trade chip. Bynum has the size and strength, plus the leaping ability, to be a better defender than Kwame once he gets some seasoning. He's only 19. Turiaf also has played well enough to get more time, and he gives them the hustle/banger type of center. The Lakers really are struggling much more on offense, and Brad would give them some outside shooting, could facilitate the offense, and would allow Odom to be more of a scorer.

The better reason I see for the Lakers to hold onto Kwame Brown is that he's probably a more valuable trade chip than this trade suggests. If Pau Gasol, Garnett or Marion are going to come available, that $9 million expiring contract is extremely valuable. For that reason alone it's doubtful that they'll cash it in for someone as limited as Brad.

But still -- Kwame is really not that good at all, I can't believe he has such staunch defenders.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I disagree...they made a big deal about Kwame being out because he's 7 feet and that's 1 of their 2 7 footers that can play. I just don't buy your argument becasue the Lakers would pee their pants over this offer. They know Kwame sucks and is nothing more than an EC. Since an EC is utterly useless in LA, they'd be VERY happy with this sort of offer. Kwame = 7 feet...that's his only value as a basketball player.

You obviously don't watch Kwame very often.

 

[Smills91]

I don't often take Smills91's side, but I agree with him on this one, at least on the basic idea. Kwame is a fine post defender, but I don't think in the future he's going to be all that valuable except as a trade chip. Bynum has the size and strength, plus the leaping ability, to be a better defender than Kwame once he gets some seasoning. He's only 19. Turiaf also has played well enough to get more time, and he gives them the hustle/banger type of center. The Lakers really are struggling much more on offense, and Brad would give them some outside shooting, could facilitate the offense, and would allow Odom to be more of a scorer.

The better reason I see for the Lakers to hold onto Kwame Brown is that he's probably a more valuable trade chip than this trade suggests. If Pau Gasol, Garnett or Marion are going to come available, that $9 million expiring contract is extremely valuable. For that reason alone it's doubtful that they'll cash it in for someone as limited as Brad.

But still -- Kwame is really not that good at all, I can't believe he has such staunch defenders.

While I understand what you're saying here the premise would be A LOT more than just Kwame...he's that expiring filler that would make the deal work, BUT.....to land any of those players, out goes Bynum, Farmar and possibly Odom depending on the details of the deal. Acquiring JUST Brad for Kwame allows the Lakers to keep their core intact and move forward. You also are assuming those teams will trade those players as well.

 

[Smills91]

You obviously don't watch Kwame very often.

The sad thing is I have watched him quite often. Laker fans overrate and overhype this guy like he's the next Bill Russell. He's really just average on defense(holds his own) and his offense is pitiful. He's really just a bad basketball player with a very low bball IQ. Rick Adelman said that Brad Miller was the smartest basketball player he ever coached. I think that's a trait that would be endearing to PJ especially after having to deal with Brown and "Space Cadet" on his roster. Brad also sets some of the best screens in the league to go along with his passing. That would work well with a player like Kobe. Brad does more for the Laker offense than what Brown does for the Laker defense.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I don't often take Smills91's side, but I agree with him on this one, at least on the basic idea. Kwame is a fine post defender, but I don't think in the future he's going to be all that valuable except as a trade chip. Bynum has the size and strength, plus the leaping ability, to be a better defender than Kwame once he gets some seasoning. He's only 19. Turiaf also has played well enough to get more time, and he gives them the hustle/banger type of center. The Lakers really are struggling much more on offense, and Brad would give them some outside shooting, could facilitate the offense, and would allow Odom to be more of a scorer.

The better reason I see for the Lakers to hold onto Kwame Brown is that he's probably a more valuable trade chip than this trade suggests. If Pau Gasol, Garnett or Marion are going to come available, that $9 million expiring contract is extremely valuable. For that reason alone it's doubtful that they'll cash it in for someone as limited as Brad.

But still -- Kwame is really not that good at all, I can't believe he has such staunch defenders.

I'm not saying that Kwame is definitely part of their future and it's likely they do trade him, but I don't think they're closed off to the idea of keeping him if no trade presents itself. They're still going to value his contributions accurately even if they do want to trade him. I know Bynum has the tools to be a good defender, but just like you said he's 19. He's not ready to play 30+ minutes a game consistently AND on top of that carry the load defensively in the post and pick up for a def. black hole like Miller. He's way too foul prone and so is Turiaf. While the lakers have their fair share of offensive problems, they still have Kobe and their offense is not as bad as their defense. Miller doesn't improve their offense so much that they can withstand the brunt of being one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. When you look at their roster the bottom line is still that they're more offensively talented than they are defensively talented.

It's not so much that I'm trying to pump up Kwame, but rather take down this perception that Miller is a huge boost for them. While he's nice for them, he's not a low post guy and he's way too sluggish to be the lakers PF. If they're going to trade Kwame it's going to be in a package for a player who has good 2 way value or is great on one side of the court (which miller isn't).

 

[Vlade4GM]

The sad thing is I have watched him quite often. Laker fans overrate and overhype this guy like he's the next Bill Russell. He's really just average on defense(holds his own) and his offense is pitiful. He's really just a bad basketball player with a very low bball IQ. Rick Adelman said that Brad Miller was the smartest basketball player he ever coached. I think that's a trait that would be endearing to PJ especially after having to deal with Brown and "Space Cadet" on his roster. Brad also sets some of the best screens in the league to go along with his passing. That would work well with a player like Kobe. Brad does more for the Laker offense than what Brown does for the Laker defense.

Well I watch him nearly ever game and he is the only player on that team who is exceptional at denying position and manning up and he does it very well against the elite of the league. The lakers would be giving up a huge asset in Kwame's contract if they threw it away for Miller. It would take away a lot of possibilities for them. Even you think Kwame could be an important piece to land Kirilenko, that doesn't say anything to you about his value as a defensive body and as an expiring contract? It's not just the laker fans, it's phil jackson who has said Kwame was a big key to their success when he was out with injuries. I'm not saying Phil wouldn't like Miller, but under these circumstances I don't think he would like this one bit.

 

[hoopsfan]

Brad does more for the Laker offense than what Brown does for the Laker defense.

You're wrong there. I'm not a Brown defender, but I'm certainly not a Miller supporter. He's sluggish and slow...He's done.

 

[Smills91]

You're wrong there. I'm not a Brown defender, but I'm certainly not a Miller supporter. He's sluggish and slow...He's done.

And that tells me all I need to know.

 

[hoopsfan]

"Long Live Brad Miller!"




Back at ya!

 

[beb0p]

WHAT? You need ESPN classic man. That's EXACTLY what they were, just not AS GOOD as BRad.

I don't need need ESPN classic, I was there when the Bulls made those championship runs. None of their big men is styled after Brad Miller. None. And if you look at the Lakers, You see Shaq, Chris Mhim, Samaki Walker, and Kwame Brown. The only jump shooting C PJ ever had was Medvedenko. And we all know how much he was used.

Do you even know where the first pass in a triangle goes to? Do you?

 

[nbrans]

I don't need need ESPN classic, I was there when the Bulls made those championship runs. None of their big men is styled after Brad Miller. None. And if you look at the Lakers, You see Shaq, Chris Mhim, Samaki Walker, and Kwame Brown. The only jump shooting C PJ ever had was Medvedenko. And we all know how much he was used.

Do you even know where the first pass in a triangle goes to? Do you?

This is crazy. Brad Miller is a rich man's Cartwright, Luc Longley and Bill Wennington. There couldn't BE a better comparison. Jump shooting, passing centers. Heck, Chris Mihm is a poor man's Brad Miller.

On top of that, the Kings ran a variation on the triangle until Musselman arrived, and ran the ball through Miller.

The first pass in the triangle goes to...... whomever the point guard first passes the ball to. There isn't a rule, my friend.

 

[beb0p]

This is crazy. Brad Miller is a rich man's Cartwright, Luc Longley and Bill Wennington. There couldn't BE a better comparison. Jump shooting, passing centers. Heck, Chris Mihm is a poor man's Brad Miller.

On top of that, the Kings ran a variation on the triangle until Musselman arrived, and ran the ball through Miller.

The first pass in the triangle goes to...... whomever the point guard first passes the ball to. There isn't a rule, my friend.

First. The point guard doesn't initiate the first pass in PJ's triangle. If you had watched any Laker games this season, you'll see that usually it's Odom who initiates the offense, sometimes Kobe. While with the Bulls, it was Pippen or MJ who initiated the offense. Rarely the PG. Which is why PG is not that important in PJ's triangle, as you've probably heard.

Second. The first pass is usually right into the post with the center's back to the basket. They almost always look for this pass before anything else. That's why PJ likes to use the SF/SG to initiate the offense, they're tall and can get that entry pass into the post quickly. The Lakers pass the ball elsewhere only if the paint post is unavailable. The center takes a shot if it's there and pass it and move when it's not. Yes, the first designed shot in PJ's triangle is a back-to-the-basket shot by the center. Which is why Shaq was so devestating in it. He could score in the post and is a good passer. If you had watched any of the Bulls' game, you'd see Cartwright, Purdue, Salley, etc in the post at the beginning of their offense. When you think of the perfect center in a triangle, think Shaq.

Third. When the Kings used a variation of the triangle, we had Vlade Divac and Webber. We also tried the same with K9, SAR and Brad with varying degree of success but this play was not used as often since Webber left and almost gone by Adelman's last season.

Fourth. The point I was making is that Miller is not the same rugged phyical player that the Bulls/Lakers used. I was talking about defense. Not sure how the subject got switched to offense.

 

[nbrans]

^So.......... the point guard brings the ball up the floor but doesn't initiate the first pass?

You, my friend, have a flair for creative physics.

And no offense, but I think you have the triangle all wrong. There aren't rules about where and when the ball has to go. It's all about reads, which is why it's so hard for some people to learn.

 

[beb0p]

^So.......... the point guard brings the ball up the floor but doesn't initiate the first pass?

You, my friend, have a flair for creative physics.

And no offense, but I think you have the triangle all wrong. There aren't rules about where and when the ball has to go. It's all about reads, which is why it's so hard for some people to learn.

The point guard doesn't bring the ball up the court. It's mostly Odom/Kobe who do that. There is literally no "point guard" in PJ's offense. Ever wonder why back in the days Derek Fisher committed fewer TOs than John Stockton? Becasue the PG rarely has to handle the rock. In the rare instance that the PG has to bring up the ball, it's usually a dribble hand-off to the wing (Odom) and the wing will try to initiate the offense. Just please watch the next Laker-Suns game.


Yes, the triangle is all about reads, but there is a basic concept on where the passes should go. The first pass must be made to one of the other two players in the triangle. If the first pass is made to the two weak side players then the triangle is broken and the offense needs to be reset or the the two weak-side players go into a two mans' game. At its apex, there should be two triangles with the post player overlapping the two. I think this is where you say Brad Miller is very effective because there are many passing options. It could be true. But still, the Lakers don't want Miller. They're looking for an All-Star not a former-All-Star.

 

[Smills91]

The point guard doesn't bring the ball up the court. It's mostly Odom/Kobe who do that. There is literally no "point guard" in PJ's offense. Ever wonder why back in the days Derek Fisher committed fewer TOs than John Stockton? Becasue the PG rarely has to handle the rock. In the rare instance that the PG has to bring up the ball, it's usually a dribble hand-off to the wing (Odom) and the wing will try to initiate the offense. Just please watch the next Laker-Suns game.


Also, the first pass must be made to one of the other two players in the triangle. If the first pass is made to the two weak side players then the triangle is broken and the offense needs to be reset or the the two weak-side players go into a two mans' game. At its apex, there should be two triangles with the post player overlapping the triangles. I think this is where you say Brad Miller is very effective because there are many passing options. It could be true. But still, the Lakers don't want Miller. They're looking for an All-Star not a former-All-Star.

Odom and Kobe bring the ball up at times because Smush sucks and Farmar isn't ready for prime time yet. The lakers PG situation is pathetic.

 

[beb0p]

Odom and Kobe bring the ball up at times because Smush sucks and Farmar isn't ready for prime time yet. The lakers PG situation is pathetic.

You're partly right, Smills91. The Lakers' PG situation do suck. But PJ prefer Odom/Kobe to bring up the ball is also because a tall ballhandler gives them more options.

 

[Superman]

The lakers lack defense, so why do they trade their best post defender (who is an expiring by the way) for a no D big who has a horrible contract?

Kwame may be their best post defender, but that's because they have NO good post defenders. Brad Miller > Kwame Brown, no matter what. Especially in the triangle offense.

The real question is why would the Jazz trade Kirilenko for Kwame and a pick? He's already one of the more talented players in the NBA.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Kwame may be their best post defender, but that's because they have NO good post defenders. Brad Miller > Kwame Brown, no matter what. Especially in the triangle offense.

The real question is why would the Jazz trade Kirilenko for Kwame and a pick? He's already one of the more talented players in the NBA.

It has nothng to do with who you think is the better overall player. Kwame is a good post defender and has the much more desirable contract.