Kings extend QO to Willie Cauley-Stein

Second, are you ready to accuse Fox, Buddy, Shump, Barnes of being bad perimeter defenders (and necessarily worse than most other teams given how bad WCS at rebounding and contesting inside shots compared to other bugs)?
Perimeter defense is very bad. Guard defense ranks 28th, forward ranks 19th and center ranks 16th. Between the PG and SG, they gave up the most 3PT made to opponent PG and SG.

https://stats.nba.com/teams/defense...19&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=G
https://stats.nba.com/teams/defense...19&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=F
https://stats.nba.com/teams/defense...19&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C
 
wasn't this more coaches scheme though, didn't he not focus as much on guarding the three
I noticed that it almost seemed like the Kings defense was backwards with Joerger. Geared toward stopping the midrange shot while leaving the perimeter and paint defenseless on many occasions. I feel like there was an article that came out sometime last season that talked about this.
 
I noticed that it almost seemed like the Kings defense was backwards with Joerger. Geared toward stopping the midrange shot while leaving the perimeter and paint defenseless on many occasions. I feel like there was an article that came out sometime last season that talked about this.
Genius! Prevent your opponents from taking the least efficient shots in basketball.

Might be why we swept the Spurs though.
 
I noticed that it almost seemed like the Kings defense was backwards with Joerger. Geared toward stopping the midrange shot while leaving the perimeter and paint defenseless on many occasions. I feel like there was an article that came out sometime last season that talked about this.
Remember, one of the main complaints Memphis fans had about Joerger was his antiquated 3 point defensive scheme. He loved having guards hover off the highest percentage zones like the corner to help and would have them "tag" players which is utmost high school BBall. You can cheat like that if you have a sizable team like the Warriors or Sixers but Joerger did a lot of that with 2 PG's and a SG playing SF out there so he was just kneecapping himself. Like seriously, WTF is Yogi Ferrell or Frank Mason going to do for your team defensively at the rim? Nothing.

Joerger did make some positive adjustments on both ends last year and it was a big part in the success they had. From near last in pace playing horn sets to playing uptempo except without much of the 3 ball going on. It started to creep back towards a post offense at the end though and surprise, they started to falter.

Defensively he tried a little bit of everything but never really committed to anything. Early on he wanted everyone going over screens almost exclusively. Then he started to switch a little. Then he did some hedge and recover. Then some games it was all switch almost. The problem was he'd run lineups that weren't built to do it and do it anyway. Being able to switch is almost entirely about who is in your rotation. Willie can do it but again, a big like him was always caught between help and smothering defense. Defensively he'll fit the Warriors but it will interesting to see what they want out of him offensively. I think we might see more pick and roll from them this year and if they do that, it's possible Willie gets into that Capela teir. If they want him to be Bogut then it's 50/50.
 
good article in the Athletic

amongst other things WCS talkes about contesting drives and blocks, and confirms what I have been arguing that our bad perimeter defense had a lot to do with it.

are we allowed to post excerpts?
This is misdirection.

Ive never screamed at my TV more times at a big to put his bleeping hands up than with WCS.

Wish there was a stat that shows how often a player, whose in position to bother a shot, fails to raise their hands above their shoulders.
 
Assuming poor perimeter defense;

Wouldnt this allow for even more block/rim protection opportunities???
It's as simple as this. If your perimeter is close to being a flood gate, your center becomes the last line of defense. But lets not forget that he's actually guarding the other teams big. So when a guard on the other team turns the corner and comes down the lane, Willie is left with a decision. Do I leave my man and go stop the ball, or do I stay home and guard my man. In many cases it's a lose/lose situation. This is the situation that Willie was put in time and time again.

I'm not sure what defensive scheme Joerger was using, if any. I didn't see a lot help switching on the perimeter. "Watch the Warriors some time and see how they all help one another recover from defensive leaks. Sometimes its as simple as knowing who the hell your guarding and as a result knowing whether to go under or over a pick. Most of that knowledge comes from experience.

Willie blocked shots at Kentucky, but Calipari used Willie as a help defender and all three years he was there, he had another big that helped in the middle. Nerlens Noel, Randolph, and Towns. Calipari used Willie as the player that plugged defensive holes where ever they were. Most blocked shots come from weakside help or switching help and seldom from one on one with one big against the other. What's the golden rule in post defense?Never ever leave your feet. Remember, I'm generalizing. There are rare exceptions to those rules, but not many. Leave your feet in post defense against a good post player and he'll score and you'll foul. Period!

However, most of the time, it's hard to block shots without leaving your feet, and there are some special players that have great instincts and anticipation that get away with breaking fundamental rules. Willie isn't one of them. Probably because Willie spent too much time thinking and not enough time trusting his instincts. You can't be thinking on the court, offensively or defensively. You have to react instinctively. To be honest, I don't think Willie had a natural feel for the game. Which is sad, because he had all the tools.
 
It's as simple as this. If your perimeter is close to being a flood gate, your center becomes the last line of defense. But lets not forget that he's actually guarding the other teams big. So when a guard on the other team turns the corner and comes down the lane, Willie is left with a decision. Do I leave my man and go stop the ball, or do I stay home and guard my man. In many cases it's a lose/lose situation. This is the situation that Willie was put in time and time again.

I'm not sure what defensive scheme Joerger was using, if any. I didn't see a lot help switching on the perimeter. "Watch the Warriors some time and see how they all help one another recover from defensive leaks. Sometimes its as simple as knowing who the hell your guarding and as a result knowing whether to go under or over a pick. Most of that knowledge comes from experience.

Willie blocked shots at Kentucky, but Calipari used Willie as a help defender and all three years he was there, he had another big that helped in the middle. Nerlens Noel, Randolph, and Towns. Calipari used Willie as the player that plugged defensive holes where ever they were. Most blocked shots come from weakside help or switching help and seldom from one on one with one big against the other. What's the golden rule in post defense?Never ever leave your feet. Remember, I'm generalizing. There are rare exceptions to those rules, but not many. Leave your feet in post defense against a good post player and he'll score and you'll foul. Period!

However, most of the time, it's hard to block shots without leaving your feet, and there are some special players that have great instincts and anticipation that get away with breaking fundamental rules. Willie isn't one of them. Probably because Willie spent too much time thinking and not enough time trusting his instincts. You can't be thinking on the court, offensively or defensively. You have to react instinctively. To be honest, I don't think Willie had a natural feel for the game. Which is sad, because he had all the tools.
I get exactly what you're saying and the theory makes sense but it just doesn't hold water to me. There are a lot of teams that have bad perimeter defense and their centers still manage to defend the paint and block shots. Willie admitted it himself, he didn't like going after shots like he used to because he hurt his finger on the rim. His block percentage is back there with the small forwards of the game. He wasn't defending the perimeter all game long. If he was, the opposing teams center would have a field day on us. He just simply didn't put forth the effort when it came to that part of the game. Even in his rookie season when his block rate was twice what it was last year, it was still a disappointment for a player with his length and athleticism.

Willie is what he is. He's an elite perimeter defending center and has all the skills in the world to be an elite rim defender but he chooses to be one of the poorest rim defending centers in the league. He's been concentrating for years on things that don't make sense for a center. Mid range shots and perimeter defense are way down on the list of things you want a center to be doing. The perimeter defense is nice to have but not at the cost of the paint being a revolving door for your opposition.
 
My money is on the latter. Of course, WCS can always just say "heck with it" and go fishing.
Maybe he will be more motivated, which will solve his inconsistency? Who knows. I actually think he will be fine in the GSW system. Once he's acclimated I can see him putting up the stats he put up with us. Whether or not it's a good thing with GSW, I don't know. A lot of people here rode him out on a rail for being inconsistent, but at the end of the day he was putting up decent stats for the system he was playing in. Wish him all the best and hope he gets paid next year.
 
My money is on the latter. Of course, WCS can always just say "heck with it" and go fishing.
Funny you mention fishing. According to a new SF Chronicle article, Willie was off fishing without cell service on the opening day of free agency when the Warriors were trying to reach him. When he did get back to them, they had signed Looney. The article isn’t otherwise real specific about the process that followed and how and when Willie agreed to the lesser contract.
I agree with one or two other posters here that when a player leaves the Kings, the classy thing to do is wish them well. What’s the use in kicking a dead horse? So I hope my bringing up the fishing expedition doesn’t start a whole new round of dead horse kicking. Or maybe I just don’t care that much about being classy...
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
Funny you mention fishing. According to a new SF Chronicle article, Willie was off fishing without cell service on the opening day of free agency when the Warriors were trying to reach him. When he did get back to them, they had signed Looney. The article isn’t otherwise real specific about the process that followed and how and when Willie agreed to the lesser contract.
I agree with one or two other posters here that when a player leaves the Kings, the classy thing to do is wish them well. What’s the use in kicking a dead horse? So I hope my bringing up the fishing expedition doesn’t start a whole new round of dead horse kicking. Or maybe I just don’t care that much about being classy...
This article? It's helpful if you link them, you know.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/warrior...ook-a-pay-cut-to-sign-14083715.php?psid=cwhIO
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
Funny you mention fishing. According to a new SF Chronicle article, Willie was off fishing without cell service on the opening day of free agency when the Warriors were trying to reach him. When he did get back to them, they had signed Looney.
That's not a very accurate summary of what the article says. He did have cell service (which is how he learned the Warriors were interested) but then drove somewhere with better service; the Warriors contacted his agent first, which is of course the way this is done; he had a conversation with Steve Kerr before Looney was signed.

Your summary makes it sound as if WCS lost a contract because he was fishing. The article doesn't imply that at all.
 
That's not a very accurate summary of what the article says. He did have cell service (which is how he learned the Warriors were interested) but then drove somewhere with better service; the Warriors contacted his agent first, which is of course the way this is done; he had a conversation with Steve Kerr before Looney was signed.
Your summary makes it sound as if WCS lost a contract because he was fishing. The article doesn't imply that at all.
We all know he got a contract. The question is whether he got a plan A or plan B contract because of the timing of his fishing trip.
Frankly I don't know why you would interpret this the way you did. Here's what the article states:
"Cauley-Stein said that when the Warriors first tried to call him in the opening days of free agency, they were unable to reach him because he was on a fishing trip..."
 
You know, I was not going to comment on any of this stuff, Willie has moved on and I think it was in his best interest to move on from the Kings. I was glad to see him move on from the situation in Sacramento and wish him well. I believe GS will provide him with a “Golden” opportunity he was never going to get in Sacramento. But apparently people here won’t do the classy thing, just won’t let it die, beating that dead horse. So, I guess I will PO some people. But what the heck, it’s the off season.

Willie has been one of my favorite players, I followed his career at UK and here. Cauley-Stein has always been a different dude. That’s what made him such a joy to watch, from the changing hair color/style to the new tattoos to the thoughtful, candid non-PC answers to most every media question. Cauley-Stein was a breath of fresh air. Not to mention the outstanding athleticism and potential.

Willie’s time in Sacramento was underwhelming, a lot of that falls on him, but also some blame must be laid on an inept, unstable front office, at least the first couple of years. Multiple coaching changes, changes in team direction, philosophy, etc.

Unfortunately, Willie became a lightning rod for fan discontent, his laid-back demeanor, his habit of being honest and saying what was on his mind rubbed a small core of keyboard warriors the wrong way and they seized every opportunity to pounce on his faults (and he has many as do most young players), many times exaggerating or cherry-picking stats, taking his quotes out of context or twisting his words to suit their narrative, changing a word here and there. It’s all about the “eye test” with them. It has been my experience that when people start talking about how someone doesn’t meet the “eye test”, a high percentage of time, their “eye test” is based on their preconceived prejudices against that person.

Really, on this site, there were only a handful of truly dedicated Willie haters, I used to privately refer to them as the “Hater’s Eight” (it’s not only Willie who was the object of the malice). They are only a handful, but their negative post numbers are way out of proportion to their small numbers.

Sadly, some people on here that I used to have a lot of respect for have jumped on the I hate Willie bandwagon, too, much like bystanders would join in with the school yard bullies when they had a victim chosen.

Willie was labeled by the haters as “inconsistent”, and he is, at least up to this point in his career. However, there is also a certain myth of consistency associated with their narrative, like other players he has been compared to going out night after night and putting up the same consistent numbers.

Point in case, his replacement, Dewayne Dedmon. I challenge the open minded among you to compare Willie’s and Dewayne’s stats from last year. Check out the chart below. You can see that their stats are amazingly similar for the most part. Even their minute averages are close. Their PER36 are close. But, but, but, Dedmon is so much more consistent, Willie gets 18 rebounds one night and then 0 the next night! Well, check it out, Dedmon had 12 games where he got 4 or fewer rebounds. Willie only had 8 games where he got 4 or fewer rebounds. Also, Dedmon missed 18 games, only playing in 64 games. So, 12 out of 64 games is 18.7%. Dedmon failed to get more than 4 rebounds in almost a fifth of the games he played in. Willie played in 81 games, 8 out of 81 is approximately 10%. Willie failed to get 4 or more rebounds in only 10% of the games he played in.

1563129541403.png

Now this is not to say Willie is a better rebounder than Dedmon, or that Demon is not a good player. It’s just to point out how people got caught up in that myth of consistency. Most players are inconsistent to a point, young players especially. Don’t forget Willie is 4 years younger than Dedmon, with 4 years NBA experience to Dedmon’s 6 years NBA experience.

Now, where Dedmon is going to help the Kings this year, I hope, is with his 3-point shooting, spread the floor more than Willie. However, Kings will lose something in rim running. Dedmon may be a decent rim runner, but he is not there with WCS. Also, interesting to note, Dedmon never even took a 3-point shot in the NBA until 2 years ago. Hopefully, he will be able to continue shooting the 3 at the rate he has for the last two years to provide the floor spacing the Kings need.

The other area of improvement that it is hoped Dedmon will provide, the latest cause célèbre of Willie’s detractors, is rim protection. Last season Dedmon blocked almost twice as many shots as Willie per game. This was one area where Willie was really weak last year, and I am not sure why. I feel like he could have done a better job at rim protection. However, I agree with Bajaden (and others), that the Kings perimeter defense was terrible and gave up straight line drive after straight line drive to the basket and that Willie was the last line of defense. Many times, Willie was put in a lose/lose situation.

Willie is an elite perimeter defending big, which means he was not always near the paint. Having to leave his man on the perimeter to challenge those straight-line drives to the basket was a recipe for a foul. I suspect that at times Willie was frustrated with the guards and wings porous defense and declined to challenge the shots and get into foul trouble. They put him in a bad position. I don’t know how much of that was on Joerger’s defensive scheme. Also, it’s kind of on Joerger not to get more out of Willie (and also the guards and wings) in those situations, the bench is a good motivator. Hopefully, the perimeter defense will be improved this year and Dedmon won’t be put in that position or he may have trouble staying on the court. Dedmon is not an elite perimeter defending big like Willie, so he may be near the defensive paint more than Willie was.

Dedmon is a much better FT shooter than Willie. Again, I’m surprised that Willie is such a poor FT shooter. His shot doesn’t look broken, his form doesn’t look that bad. I think eventually he will become a better FT shooter. It seems to me that he picked his percentage up a little bit late in games at critical junctures. Interesting to note that at age 25 (2014-2015 season) Dedmon was a just a 53% FT shooter. He has improved to an 81% FT shooter last year.

As I said, I’m glad to see Willie move on from the Kings, it just was not working out for the Kings or him. But despite his detractors, I do not believe he was anywhere near as bad as they have made out. I think Willie was a big part of the Kings success last year. If Golden State only gets the same kind of stats out of him that he put up last year for the Kings, they will be getting a real bargain. However, I can see Willie taking a big leap forward in the Warriors system with a coach like Kerr and mentors like Green and Looney. The opportunity is there for him.

Also Willie was classy about his exit from the Kings and didn't have anything bad to say about the Kings:
https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article232433112.html
 
You know, I was not going to comment on any of this stuff, Willie has moved on and I think it was in his best interest to move on from the Kings. I was glad to see him move on from the situation in Sacramento and wish him well. I believe GS will provide him with a “Golden” opportunity he was never going to get in Sacramento. But apparently people here won’t do the classy thing, just won’t let it die, beating that dead horse. So, I guess I will PO some people. But what the heck, it’s the off season.

Willie has been one of my favorite players, I followed his career at UK and here. Cauley-Stein has always been a different dude. That’s what made him such a joy to watch, from the changing hair color/style to the new tattoos to the thoughtful, candid non-PC answers to most every media question. Cauley-Stein was a breath of fresh air. Not to mention the outstanding athleticism and potential.

Willie’s time in Sacramento was underwhelming, a lot of that falls on him, but also some blame must be laid on an inept, unstable front office, at least the first couple of years. Multiple coaching changes, changes in team direction, philosophy, etc.

Unfortunately, Willie became a lightning rod for fan discontent, his laid-back demeanor, his habit of being honest and saying what was on his mind rubbed a small core of keyboard warriors the wrong way and they seized every opportunity to pounce on his faults (and he has many as do most young players), many times exaggerating or cherry-picking stats, taking his quotes out of context or twisting his words to suit their narrative, changing a word here and there. It’s all about the “eye test” with them. It has been my experience that when people start talking about how someone doesn’t meet the “eye test”, a high percentage of time, their “eye test” is based on their preconceived prejudices against that person.

Really, on this site, there were only a handful of truly dedicated Willie haters, I used to privately refer to them as the “Hater’s Eight” (it’s not only Willie who was the object of the malice). They are only a handful, but their negative post numbers are way out of proportion to their small numbers.

Sadly, some people on here that I used to have a lot of respect for have jumped on the I hate Willie bandwagon, too, much like bystanders would join in with the school yard bullies when they had a victim chosen.

Willie was labeled by the haters as “inconsistent”, and he is, at least up to this point in his career. However, there is also a certain myth of consistency associated with their narrative, like other players he has been compared to going out night after night and putting up the same consistent numbers.

Point in case, his replacement, Dewayne Dedmon. I challenge the open minded among you to compare Willie’s and Dewayne’s stats from last year. Check out the chart below. You can see that their stats are amazingly similar for the most part. Even their minute averages are close. Their PER36 are close. But, but, but, Dedmon is so much more consistent, Willie gets 18 rebounds one night and then 0 the next night! Well, check it out, Dedmon had 12 games where he got 4 or fewer rebounds. Willie only had 8 games where he got 4 or fewer rebounds. Also, Dedmon missed 18 games, only playing in 64 games. So, 12 out of 64 games is 18.7%. Dedmon failed to get more than 4 rebounds in almost a fifth of the games he played in. Willie played in 81 games, 8 out of 81 is approximately 10%. Willie failed to get 4 or more rebounds in only 10% of the games he played in.

View attachment 9249

Now this is not to say Willie is a better rebounder than Dedmon, or that Demon is not a good player. It’s just to point out how people got caught up in that myth of consistency. Most players are inconsistent to a point, young players especially. Don’t forget Willie is 4 years younger than Dedmon, with 4 years NBA experience to Dedmon’s 6 years NBA experience.

Now, where Dedmon is going to help the Kings this year, I hope, is with his 3-point shooting, spread the floor more than Willie. However, Kings will lose something in rim running. Dedmon may be a decent rim runner, but he is not there with WCS. Also, interesting to note, Dedmon never even took a 3-point shot in the NBA until 2 years ago. Hopefully, he will be able to continue shooting the 3 at the rate he has for the last two years to provide the floor spacing the Kings need.

The other area of improvement that it is hoped Dedmon will provide, the latest cause célèbre of Willie’s detractors, is rim protection. Last season Dedmon blocked almost twice as many shots as Willie per game. This was one area where Willie was really weak last year, and I am not sure why. I feel like he could have done a better job at rim protection. However, I agree with Bajaden (and others), that the Kings perimeter defense was terrible and gave up straight line drive after straight line drive to the basket and that Willie was the last line of defense. Many times, Willie was put in a lose/lose situation.

Willie is an elite perimeter defending big, which means he was not always near the paint. Having to leave his man on the perimeter to challenge those straight-line drives to the basket was a recipe for a foul. I suspect that at times Willie was frustrated with the guards and wings porous defense and declined to challenge the shots and get into foul trouble. They put him in a bad position. I don’t know how much of that was on Joerger’s defensive scheme. Also, it’s kind of on Joerger not to get more out of Willie (and also the guards and wings) in those situations, the bench is a good motivator. Hopefully, the perimeter defense will be improved this year and Dedmon won’t be put in that position or he may have trouble staying on the court. Dedmon is not an elite perimeter defending big like Willie, so he may be near the defensive paint more than Willie was.

Dedmon is a much better FT shooter than Willie. Again, I’m surprised that Willie is such a poor FT shooter. His shot doesn’t look broken, his form doesn’t look that bad. I think eventually he will become a better FT shooter. It seems to me that he picked his percentage up a little bit late in games at critical junctures. Interesting to note that at age 25 (2014-2015 season) Dedmon was a just a 53% FT shooter. He has improved to an 81% FT shooter last year.

As I said, I’m glad to see Willie move on from the Kings, it just was not working out for the Kings or him. But despite his detractors, I do not believe he was anywhere near as bad as they have made out. I think Willie was a big part of the Kings success last year. If Golden State only gets the same kind of stats out of him that he put up last year for the Kings, they will be getting a real bargain. However, I can see Willie taking a big leap forward in the Warriors system with a coach like Kerr and mentors like Green and Looney. The opportunity is there for him.

Also Willie was classy about his exit from the Kings and didn't have anything bad to say about the Kings:
https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article232433112.html
The main differences between the two are that Willie is more skilled overall, a much better passer (Dedmon CANNOT run your offense), and more athletic. Dedmon is a bit stronger, a better shotblocker, and is a 3 point threat. The Kings gain better fit, but certainly lose out in some ways.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
We all know he got a contract. The question is whether he got a plan A or plan B contract because of the timing of his fishing trip.
Frankly I don't know why you would interpret this the way you did. Here's what the article states:
"Cauley-Stein said that when the Warriors first tried to call him in the opening days of free agency, they were unable to reach him because he was on a fishing trip..."
We must not be looking at the same article. The article I am looking at (which is the SF Chronicle article posted by Warhawk (link) above following your initial post) does not contain that text. Rather, it says:

Stressed over a future in flux, Cauley-Stein went fishing July 2 to ease his mind. When his agent called to tell him the Warriors were interested, he drove 2 miles for better reception and called Kerr, who told him that he thought Cauley-Stein’s pick-and-roll abilities provided the Warriors a much-needed offensive wrinkle.

Moments after hanging up, Kerr called back to inform Cauley-Stein that Kevon Looney had just agreed to a three-year, $15 million deal with the Warriors, leaving them with barely more than a minimum contract to offer Cauley-Stein.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Funny you mention fishing. According to a new SF Chronicle article, Willie was off fishing without cell service on the opening day of free agency when the Warriors were trying to reach him. When he did get back to them, they had signed Looney. The article isn’t otherwise real specific about the process that followed and how and when Willie agreed to the lesser contract.
I agree with one or two other posters here that when a player leaves the Kings, the classy thing to do is wish them well. What’s the use in kicking a dead horse? So I hope my bringing up the fishing expedition doesn’t start a whole new round of dead horse kicking. Or maybe I just don’t care that much about being classy...
Um...that's kind of what I was referring to. :p
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
You know, I was not going to comment on any of this stuff, Willie has moved on and I think it was in his best interest to move on from the Kings. I was glad to see him move on from the situation in Sacramento and wish him well. I believe GS will provide him with a “Golden” opportunity he was never going to get in Sacramento. But apparently people here won’t do the classy thing, just won’t let it die, beating that dead horse. So, I guess I will PO some people. But what the heck, it’s the off season.

Willie has been one of my favorite players, I followed his career at UK and here. Cauley-Stein has always been a different dude. That’s what made him such a joy to watch, from the changing hair color/style to the new tattoos to the thoughtful, candid non-PC answers to most every media question. Cauley-Stein was a breath of fresh air. Not to mention the outstanding athleticism and potential.

Willie’s time in Sacramento was underwhelming, a lot of that falls on him, but also some blame must be laid on an inept, unstable front office, at least the first couple of years. Multiple coaching changes, changes in team direction, philosophy, etc.

Unfortunately, Willie became a lightning rod for fan discontent, his laid-back demeanor, his habit of being honest and saying what was on his mind rubbed a small core of keyboard warriors the wrong way and they seized every opportunity to pounce on his faults (and he has many as do most young players), many times exaggerating or cherry-picking stats, taking his quotes out of context or twisting his words to suit their narrative, changing a word here and there. It’s all about the “eye test” with them. It has been my experience that when people start talking about how someone doesn’t meet the “eye test”, a high percentage of time, their “eye test” is based on their preconceived prejudices against that person.

Really, on this site, there were only a handful of truly dedicated Willie haters, I used to privately refer to them as the “Hater’s Eight” (it’s not only Willie who was the object of the malice). They are only a handful, but their negative post numbers are way out of proportion to their small numbers.

Sadly, some people on here that I used to have a lot of respect for have jumped on the I hate Willie bandwagon, too, much like bystanders would join in with the school yard bullies when they had a victim chosen.

Willie was labeled by the haters as “inconsistent”, and he is, at least up to this point in his career. However, there is also a certain myth of consistency associated with their narrative, like other players he has been compared to going out night after night and putting up the same consistent numbers.

Point in case, his replacement, Dewayne Dedmon. I challenge the open minded among you to compare Willie’s and Dewayne’s stats from last year. Check out the chart below. You can see that their stats are amazingly similar for the most part. Even their minute averages are close. Their PER36 are close. But, but, but, Dedmon is so much more consistent, Willie gets 18 rebounds one night and then 0 the next night! Well, check it out, Dedmon had 12 games where he got 4 or fewer rebounds. Willie only had 8 games where he got 4 or fewer rebounds. Also, Dedmon missed 18 games, only playing in 64 games. So, 12 out of 64 games is 18.7%. Dedmon failed to get more than 4 rebounds in almost a fifth of the games he played in. Willie played in 81 games, 8 out of 81 is approximately 10%. Willie failed to get 4 or more rebounds in only 10% of the games he played in.

View attachment 9249

Now this is not to say Willie is a better rebounder than Dedmon, or that Demon is not a good player. It’s just to point out how people got caught up in that myth of consistency. Most players are inconsistent to a point, young players especially. Don’t forget Willie is 4 years younger than Dedmon, with 4 years NBA experience to Dedmon’s 6 years NBA experience.

Now, where Dedmon is going to help the Kings this year, I hope, is with his 3-point shooting, spread the floor more than Willie. However, Kings will lose something in rim running. Dedmon may be a decent rim runner, but he is not there with WCS. Also, interesting to note, Dedmon never even took a 3-point shot in the NBA until 2 years ago. Hopefully, he will be able to continue shooting the 3 at the rate he has for the last two years to provide the floor spacing the Kings need.

The other area of improvement that it is hoped Dedmon will provide, the latest cause célèbre of Willie’s detractors, is rim protection. Last season Dedmon blocked almost twice as many shots as Willie per game. This was one area where Willie was really weak last year, and I am not sure why. I feel like he could have done a better job at rim protection. However, I agree with Bajaden (and others), that the Kings perimeter defense was terrible and gave up straight line drive after straight line drive to the basket and that Willie was the last line of defense. Many times, Willie was put in a lose/lose situation.

Willie is an elite perimeter defending big, which means he was not always near the paint. Having to leave his man on the perimeter to challenge those straight-line drives to the basket was a recipe for a foul. I suspect that at times Willie was frustrated with the guards and wings porous defense and declined to challenge the shots and get into foul trouble. They put him in a bad position. I don’t know how much of that was on Joerger’s defensive scheme. Also, it’s kind of on Joerger not to get more out of Willie (and also the guards and wings) in those situations, the bench is a good motivator. Hopefully, the perimeter defense will be improved this year and Dedmon won’t be put in that position or he may have trouble staying on the court. Dedmon is not an elite perimeter defending big like Willie, so he may be near the defensive paint more than Willie was.

Dedmon is a much better FT shooter than Willie. Again, I’m surprised that Willie is such a poor FT shooter. His shot doesn’t look broken, his form doesn’t look that bad. I think eventually he will become a better FT shooter. It seems to me that he picked his percentage up a little bit late in games at critical junctures. Interesting to note that at age 25 (2014-2015 season) Dedmon was a just a 53% FT shooter. He has improved to an 81% FT shooter last year.

As I said, I’m glad to see Willie move on from the Kings, it just was not working out for the Kings or him. But despite his detractors, I do not believe he was anywhere near as bad as they have made out. I think Willie was a big part of the Kings success last year. If Golden State only gets the same kind of stats out of him that he put up last year for the Kings, they will be getting a real bargain. However, I can see Willie taking a big leap forward in the Warriors system with a coach like Kerr and mentors like Green and Looney. The opportunity is there for him.

Also Willie was classy about his exit from the Kings and didn't have anything bad to say about the Kings:
https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article232433112.html
Excuse me? I don't know about anyone else but I gave WCS every possible benefit of the doubt. I held out hope for a very long time that he would step up and actually be the player I had hoped he would be when we drafted him. I defended him against a LOT of people even when there was every reason not to.

WCS classy about his exit? He was pretty vocal about wanting to move on and insinuated he'd been held back. That's crap. Joerger gave him every opportunity in the world and more to fulfill his destiny. I watch every single Kings game - sometimes more than once. I lost count of how many times WCS showed a lack of intensity or even basic interest in the game. He has incredible skills but seems to think he doesn't have to work to improve on them.

Am I a "hater" because I spoke often this past year about his inconsistency? You can post stats all you like. I use my eyes - and what I saw was that on some nights he put it out there and on other nights he just didn't seem to care. I've watched the game of basketball for over 50 years and I feel fairly confident about my perception of things like consistency. His body language was often telling.

I'm sorry you feel some of us have jumped on the I hate Willie bandwagon because we wanted/needed him to show more of what we know he's capable of. If you lost respect for me over this, that's on you. If WCS was giving his all every night, that would be one thing. He didn't though...and he knew it just as well as all of us did. He talked the talk but didn't always walk the walk. I lost respect for him when he made public comments about not being appreciated, etc.

WCS will either do very well in Golden State or he'll find himself relegated to the end of the bench. He's going to be pushed harder than he's ever been pushed before. For his sake, I hope he steps up to the challenge.
 
Last edited:
Our perimeter defense should get better with Barnes starting at the 3, and CoJo coming of the bench, but if it does not there will be a lot of guards and wings driving freeley on Dedmon and the man he is defending. Lets hope he does better than WCS in those situations.
 
We must not be looking at the same article. The article I am looking at (which is the SF Chronicle article posted by Warhawk (link) above following your initial post) does not contain that text. Rather it says:
Well that’s interesting. And sort of explains the interpretation issue. ;)
Anyway, I went back and found the article at:
https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/art...ein-facts-Warriors-things-didn-t-14092060.php
I originally found it on Yahoo, with the source identified as “SF Chronicle.”
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
Well that’s interesting. And sort of explains the interpretation issue. ;)
Anyway, I went back and found the article at:
https://www.sfgate.com/warriors/art...ein-facts-Warriors-things-didn-t-14092060.php
I originally found it on Yahoo, with the source identified as “SF Chronicle.”
Yeah, that article has some different details. And that's the reason you post links to the article you are referring to, because nobody else may know what the heck you are talking about. ;)