[Game] Kings @ Davions 11/2/2024 4:30pm Pacific 7:30pm Eastern

[Srzly]

I said it earlier in the game thread and in previous ones, but I just think the coaching staff is creating this "we don't have a bench!" problem. They're choosing to overplay the starters. Going into the season the general consensus was the Kings have a very solid Top 9/10 - Monk, Ellis, Lyles, Len off the bench (if Huerter starts) was good. Then comes Game 1. And Kings barely use the bench in the FIRST GAME & Brown is saying in the postgame "Well we played the starters too much"... yet continues to do that .... And by Game 3, Lyles starts playing small-ball center & Len starts getting DNP's.

Coaching staff is creating the issue in my opinion. The team has a good bench if they're used and trusted. But if you barely play them, it not only reduces the stats for the bench mob, makes starters play too many minutes, etc. but also makes it hard for the bench to get into any rhythm. So for example - the bench is more likely to play poorly in 8-12 minutes as opposed to 12-16 min due to lack of rhythm.

So again - Going into Game 1, it was so obvious what the rotation would be. And now 6 games in there's all this confusion over it. That's all on the coaching staff in my opinion.

But Len wasn’t good and when Lyles has come in there has been a noticeable drop and Mike has had to yank him quick to stop the bleeding in multiple games.

I believe someone posted stats a game ago showing our starters have actually played very well but our bench has been terrible.

Mike had mentioned he doesn’t want to play his starters as much as his is but I think he feels he doesn’t have a choice.

 

[iowamcnabb]

correct but Keegs was locking him up for much of it. Do you have data on how he did against Keon?

I watched all of his field goals here is the breakdown.

1) beat Fox up top, no paint help
2) tough d by buckets, scored throwing slop
3) 3 over DDR
4) got free off a screen on Keegan
5) 3 over a late Fox
6) straight line drive on Keegan
7) put back over Trey
8) 3 over Sabonis
9) Ellis got screened off him shot over Sabonis
10) fastbreak layup off turnover. Fouled by ddr

Those are all of his field goals, he got to the line as well. He went to the line on shooting fouls by Keegan (twice) Monk (once) Sabonis (once) Ellis (once) and DDR (once, and one)

 

[kingsboi]

Huerter is for sure a shooter. He has several years of high volume high percentages to prove it. I’d argue most shooters are fairly streaky including the third best shooter of his generation (Buddy) Even last year, a season most fans thought was bad for Kev he still shot 36 percent. 36 percent from 3 is equivalent to shooting 54 percent from 2.

he may be more of a volume shooter compared to a pure shooter. He has that hitch in his shot which makes his shooting unpredictable but at this stage in his career, I don't know if you want to mess with it.

 

[Jones2006]

But Len wasn’t good and when Lyles has come in there has been a noticeable drop and Mike has had to yank him quick to stop the bleeding in multiple games.

I believe someone posted stats a game ago showing our starters have actually played very well but our bench has been terrible.

Mike had mentioned he doesn’t want to play his starters as much as his is but I think he feels he doesn’t have a choice.

What is this "Len wasn't good" idea coming from?

These are his minutes for the year:

Minny Game - 6 (3 p, 2 r, 1 b - 0 +/-, higher than Sabonis' -2 +/-)
Lakers game - 9 (-9 in 9 min)
Blazers game - 7 (He was subbed after Lyles was the 5' though first)
Utah - 5 (garbage time)

Objectively, he was good in the Minny game & bad in the Lakers game. So it is literally judgement off of a poor 9 minute stretch in 1 game that led to Brown altering the rotation. 9 minutes. That is insanity to me. That's like imagine Monk playing bad for a 9 minute stretch in 1 game - and then Brown opting him to pull him out of the rotation after that.

You don't judge a 12 year vet from a 9 minute stretch in the 2nd game of a season when that same player was a positive asset the previous season & showed up decent in preseason.

And using +/- stats for starters vs. bench literally 2-4 games into a season is insanity. And like I said, Brown changed the bench rotation literally the 3rd game putting in Lyles at the 5' so really it's judgement from a 2 game stretch really.

The bench would be effective if they simply played the right players ... Monk, Ellis, Lyles, Len is your bench. They only played together literally in game #1! Then after that, Brown loses his mind and has toyed with Ellis OR Len's minutes since. I thought the entire premise of the season was "Let's maintain the defensive progress last year, insert DeRozan to help with offense, Keegan will progress & wolla' we're a contender" - Well the 1st part of that, is keeping Len/Keon as rotational pieces. Going small behind Sabonis completely changes the identity of the bench & is just silly.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Alex Len was picked one pick before abmachen in their draft so that logic is out the window

We're talking young 1st round picks on a rookie contract. Alex Len is currently on a vet minimum contract

 

[Tetsujin]

We're talking young 1st round picks on a rookie contract. Alex Len is currently on a vet minimum contract

The only player currently in the Kings rotation that fits that criteria is Keegan Murray, who is playing the most minutes on the team because he’s good and our best defender.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The only player currently in the Kings rotation that fits that criteria is Keegan Murray, who is playing the most minutes on the team because he’s good and our best defender.

My post was about players who get more respect and time to work through bad games. Those are players on sizeable contracts and 1st round picks on rookie deals. Some would consider it part of "asset protection". We'll see how he handles Carter

 

[Kingster]

I did have the faint hope that with the addition of DDR that the dumb arrogant games against lesser opponents would disappear this year. His leadership and all. Wins against Utah and Atlanta helped fueled my optimism. Alas, no joy. Instead, the same theme of not taking lesser opponents seriously is alive and well. It just took a hiatus for a couple of games at the beginning of the season. And of course it starts with Fox. We've seen it a zillion times. As they say in Great Britain, he has form. Zero for 10 from 3-point land? For a career 33% shooter with his 3s? Some might say, "if only" he had made a couple in this game it might have been a different outcome. I say, might it have been a different outcome if he took half as many 3 point shots and drove in the paint to kick it to wide open 3 point shooters? Who knows? Maybe Fox could have ended up with more than one assist. The Kings did have many occasions where there were wide open 3-point shooters if only they had gotten the ball. But instead Fox doubled down on his jack fest. Malik and DDR joined the one-on-one party. Add the lazy 3-point defense to the above and it was the perfect recipe to get beat by an 0-5 team like Toronto decimated by injury. Toronto totally deserved this win. Good for them. They played smart and as a team. The Kings played the exact opposite.

 

[The_Jamal]

What is this "Len wasn't good" idea coming from?

These are his minutes for the year:

Minny Game - 6 (3 p, 2 r, 1 b - 0 +/-, higher than Sabonis' -2 +/-)
Lakers game - 9 (-9 in 9 min)
Blazers game - 7 (He was subbed after Lyles was the 5' though first)
Utah - 5 (garbage time)

Objectively, he was good in the Minny game & bad in the Lakers game. So it is literally judgement off of a poor 9 minute stretch in 1 game that led to Brown altering the rotation. 9 minutes. That is insanity to me. That's like imagine Monk playing bad for a 9 minute stretch in 1 game - and then Brown opting him to pull him out of the rotation after that.

You don't judge a 12 year vet from a 9 minute stretch in the 2nd game of a season when that same player was a positive asset the previous season & showed up decent in preseason.

And using +/- stats for starters vs. bench literally 2-4 games into a season is insanity. And like I said, Brown changed the bench rotation literally the 3rd game putting in Lyles at the 5' so really it's judgement from a 2 game stretch really.

The bench would be effective if they simply played the right players ... Monk, Ellis, Lyles, Len is your bench. They only played together literally in game #1! Then after that, Brown loses his mind and has toyed with Ellis OR Len's minutes since. I thought the entire premise of the season was "Let's maintain the defensive progress last year, insert DeRozan to help with offense, Keegan will progress & wolla' we're a contender" - Well the 1st part of that, is keeping Len/Keon as rotational pieces. Going small behind Sabonis completely changes the identity of the bench & is just silly.

Never thought I'd be the "watch the game" bro, but here we are: watch the game. Len has been atrocious this season and basically forced Brown to adjust his prior on Lyles and put him C

You were right the previous 2 years that Len was solid. I don't think he is anymore.

The stats show this out too, but not wasting my time posting those. I already have on multiple occasions

 

[Jones2006]

Never thought I'd be the "watch the game" bro, but here we are: watch the game. Len has been atrocious this season and basically forced Brown to adjust his prior on Lyles and put him C

You were right the previous 2 years that Len was solid. I don't think he is anymore.

The stats show this out too, but not wasting my time posting those. I already have on multiple occasions

So again, you're referring to one 9 minute stretch correct? Are you referring to stats from a whole 15 minute sample size? (before Len was behind Lyles in the Portland game)

It's hard to take your post seriously, respectfully. EVEN in the case you are correct that Len is suddenly bad now - the same size is 15 minutes through 2 games! It's laughable to draw any conclusion from that - especially using "statistics" from a sample size that small.

Again as I said in my last post - If Monk or Ellis or Lyles played poorly in a 15 minute stretch, is that enough to completely cut them from the rotation? Not in my opinion, that's called bad coaching like I stated. What's funny is Brown did the same thing to Ellis benching him in Game #2 for a bad little stretch in Game 1. Then, he makes the same mistake with Len.

 

[The_Jamal]

So again, you're referring to one 9 minute stretch correct? Are you referring to stats from a whole 15 minute sample size? (before Len was behind Lyles in the Portland game)

It's hard to take your post seriously, respectfully. EVEN in the case you are correct that Len is suddenly bad now - the same size is 15 minutes through 2 games! It's laughable to draw any conclusion from that - especially using "statistics" from a sample size that small.

Again as I said in my last post - If Monk or Ellis or Lyles played poorly in a 15 minute stretch, is that enough to completely cut them from the rotation? Not in my opinion, that's called bad coaching like I stated. What's funny is Brown did the same thing to Ellis benching him in Game #2 for a bad little stretch in Game 1. Then, he makes the same mistake with Len.

I mean I've never beena huge Len fan anyway, but obviously ate crow over the last 2 seasons on his play. But I just don't care to let an old vet min C "play through" being bad if he's hit the age cliff and is done.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Never thought I'd be the "watch the game" bro, but here we are: watch the game. Len has been atrocious this season and basically forced Brown to adjust his prior on Lyles and put him C

I think the point is that when you say "watch the game" there are only a few games to watch. Len had a bigger role in the start against a couple of high quality opponents, and was not utilized vs the soft underbelly of the NBA. There isn't enough data to make a data-driven decision.

However, when I look at the weak points the the Kings this season, it's hard to see Len being the solution to our poor 3p% (as of this post, 27th in the NBA with 32%) or poor 3p defense (6th most 3p/game against) Also, with the addition of DDR, we may not need a Len screen to get a scoring look while Domas is on the bench.

Our rebounding has been mid, Len could help with that; but the Kings are being killed from the perimeter, not the paint. Even if he's playing well, I'm not sure if I see a lot of room for him to make an impact.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Never thought I'd be the "watch the game" bro, but here we are: watch the game. Len has been atrocious this season and basically forced Brown to adjust his prior on Lyles and put him C

You were right the previous 2 years that Len was solid. I don't think he is anymore.

The stats show this out too, but not wasting my time posting those. I already have on multiple occasions

You do realize that you are referring to "this season" after a 3 game sample size?

To be fair, you declared that he wasn't an NBA player two seasons. Then changed your mind, saying that you were wrong about him. Now after 3 games to start this seasson from him, you're back to he's awful

 

[Section 101]

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022400143

last 2 min report.

2 calls go against Kings,

19 seconds left in 4th Q, it was a travel they shouldn't have got the timeout.

OT - 61 seconds left Fox gets hit in the face by Dick. No call.

 

[ESP47]

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0022400143

last 2 min report.

2 calls go against Kings,

19 seconds left in 4th Q, it was a travel they shouldn't have got the timeout.

OT - 61 seconds left Fox gets hit in the face by Dick. No call.

I see what you did there.

 

[SacTownKid]

I watched all of his field goals here is the breakdown.

1) beat Fox up top, no paint help
2) tough d by buckets, scored throwing slop
3) 3 over DDR
4) got free off a screen on Keegan
5) 3 over a late Fox
6) straight line drive on Keegan
7) put back over Trey
8) 3 over Sabonis
9) Ellis got screened off him shot over Sabonis
10) fastbreak layup off turnover. Fouled by ddr

Those are all of his field goals, he got to the line as well. He went to the line on shooting fouls by Keegan (twice) Monk (once) Sabonis (once) Ellis (once) and DDR (once, and one)

And the shot chart tells the story. If there's an issue it was Barrett attacking the paint. 7 of his 10 makes were in the restricted area.

 

[The_Jamal]

You do realize that you are referring to "this season" after a 3 game sample size?

To be fair, you declared that he wasn't an NBA player two seasons. Then changed your mind, saying that you were wrong about him. Now after 3 games to start this seasson from him, you're back to he's awful

Does everyone just try to take me out of context?

I said he's been awful and he's deserved to get kicked out of the rotation, at least for awhile. And longterm vets that are fringe nba players very rarely last into their 30s... he might just be hitting that age wall.

I said "I dont think he's solid anymore" because of the above reasons. OF COURSE it's such a small sample size, he can turn it around. I just don't think it'll happen

 

[The_Jamal]

I think the point is that when you say "watch the game" there are only a few games to watch. Len had a bigger role in the start against a couple of high quality opponents, and was not utilized vs the soft underbelly of the NBA. There isn't enough data to make a data-driven decision.

However, when I look at the weak points the the Kings this season, it's hard to see Len being the solution to our poor 3p% (as of this post, 27th in the NBA with 32%) or poor 3p defense (6th most 3p/game against) Also, with the addition of DDR, we may not need a Len screen to get a scoring look while Domas is on the bench.

Our rebounding has been mid, Len could help with that; but the Kings are being killed from the perimeter, not the paint. Even if he's playing well, I'm not sure if I see a lot of room for him to make an impact.

Absolutely, it's a tiny sample size this season. But the data on Len (and Lyles, tbh) is so damn bad, it forced Brown to put Lyles at the 5, something he's resisted for 3 years now. Thats what I'm highlighting more than anything

 

[sactowndog]

I watched all of his field goals here is the breakdown.

1) beat Fox up top, no paint help
2) tough d by buckets, scored throwing slop
3) 3 over DDR
4) got free off a screen on Keegan
5) 3 over a late Fox
6) straight line drive on Keegan
7) put back over Trey
8) 3 over Sabonis
9) Ellis got screened off him shot over Sabonis
10) fastbreak layup off turnover. Fouled by ddr

Those are all of his field goals, he got to the line as well. He went to the line on shooting fouls by Keegan (twice) Monk (once) Sabonis (once) Ellis (once) and DDR (once, and one)

Great data. Thanks for taking the time and enduring the pain of watching it twice.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Does everyone just try to take me out of context?

I said he's been awful and he's deserved to get kicked out of the rotation, at least for awhile. And longterm vets that are fringe nba players very rarely last into their 30s... he might just be hitting that age wall.

I said "I dont think he's solid anymore" because of the above reasons. OF COURSE it's such a small sample size, he can turn it around. I just don't think it'll happen

Someone who is hyper focused on stats and data, should never jump to conclusions based on a few games to start a season. I think you know that, and if we're being honest, this has always been about more about playing time for Lyles at the 5....and the sooner that Len is given up on, the better in that regard.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Do you know what’s also stupid? The fact that we can still complain about playing a b2b, when we’ve now played against these teams on the 2nd night of a b2b:

Lakers
Trailblazers
Jazz
Raptors

Yes, that’s over half of our games so far we’ve been the beneficiary. Yet we make the lame excuse when we lose

3 of 4 on the road. And one flying across the country. That's ugly. Sorry. Not the best look 6 games in.

 

[PorchSurfin]

It’s a 2hr flight. It’s maybe 30 mins longer than flying from Sac to LA or Sac to Portland

It's about 45 mins more tbh. Which is definitely closer to 3 than it is to 2. A B2B between LA and Phx or LA to GS for example is 1.5 hours and probably the max that should be allowed. Even NY to NJ is a bus ride. ORL to MIA makes sense. Atl to Tor is a scheduling L unless you are deep deep like Minny and even then it's a huge disadvantage for the visiting team. Sure, TOR had a B2B, but it was a home B2B.

No excuses tho. The Kings should have pulled this one out. They let a nobody have a career game.

 

[PorchSurfin]

30/58 which is even more insane

Buddy out to prove something. Like he does every time he is on a new team. Same old Buddy. His effort will wane as time goes on like usual

 

[pdxKingsFan]

It's about 45 mins more tbh. Which is definitely closer to 3 than it is to 2. A B2B between LA and Phx or LA to GS for example is 1.5 hours and probably the max that should be allowed. Even NY to NJ is a bus ride. ORL to MIA makes sense. Atl to Tor is a scheduling L unless you are deep deep like Minny and even then it's a huge disadvantage for the visiting team. Sure, TOR had a B2B, but it was a home B2B.

No excuses tho. The Kings should have pulled this one out. They let a nobody have a career game.

Draper said they got to hotel at 3am that's all you need to know. Schedule makers should have put the Hawks game on 10/31.

 

[Tizzy Flip]

Draper said they got to hotel at 3am that's all you need to know. Schedule makers should have put the Hawks game on 10/31.

There are teams out East who do much longer b2b trips. Celtics will go from Miami to NYC in b2b road games later this year, and again from NYC to Orlando toward end of the season. And they don’t lose the 2nd game very often (Celtics were 12-2 last year). Just a difference in mental toughness Brown needs to figure out with his team. The best teams last year were 8-5, 9-4, 10-3 in these games. We were in the bottom half at 6-9 last season

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Buddy out to prove something. Like he does every time he is on a new team. Same old Buddy. His effort will wane as time goes on like usual

I wonder if being around the best shooter in history with Curry, has him hyper focused and working extra hard. We'll see how it goes

 

[pdxKingsFan]

There are teams out East who do much longer b2b trips. Celtics will go from Miami to NYC in b2b road games later this year, and again from NYC to Orlando toward end of the season. And they don’t lose the 2nd game very often (Celtics were 12-2 last year). Just a difference in mental toughness Brown needs to figure out with his team. The best teams last year were 8-5, 9-4, 10-3 in these games. We were in the bottom half at 6-9 last season

But Boston to NY itself is a quick trip. Sac to Atlanta to Toronto is different. They could have put the game the night before and not impacted ATL or SAC except maybe not wanting to play more games on Halloween night for non-basketball reasons. You can dismiss it but certain West Coast teams log more miles than anyone else. Minnesota, Portland, Sacramento and GSW will always travel about 10k more miles than the Eastern seaboard teams do annually.

 

[Tizzy Flip]

But Boston to NY itself is a quick trip. Sac to Atlanta to Toronto is different. They could have put the game the night before and not impacted ATL or SAC except maybe not wanting to play more games on Halloween night for non-basketball reasons. You can dismiss it but certain West Coast teams log more miles than anyone else. Minnesota, Portland, Sacramento and GSW will always travel about 10k more miles than the Eastern seaboard teams do annually.

But they’re flying from Boston to Miami to NYC. We’re pretty much splitting hairs here when we’re talking about what their charter flights look like and the luxury treatment these NBA players get. If they’re too tired, then it’s a mental toughness issue.

By the way, of those teams you mentioned, here were there records on 2nd night of b2b last year….

Minnesota 8-5
Portland 8-6
GSW 10-7

These teams definitely don’t treat these as “schedule losses”

 

[NewArena]

A few reasons I’m optimistic:
1. I don’t think our coaches have necessarily put us in the best positions to win so far and we are still 500.

2. We played our worst game and still almost won. I don’t think it’s typical for DDR to have 6 TOs and Fox to shoot like he did.

One reason I’m worried:

1. Our bench is not good outside of Monk and Keon. You can see us lose all momentum when Mike has to bring in the bench players for any stretch, which is why our starters are being forced to play so many minutes with little rest.

PS - Please stop letting every team get hot shooting against this awful zone we keep playing. It’s been horrible. I hope there are stats/analytics that dispute what my eyes see. Maybe the coaches feel we don’t have the defenders to go man-to-man with some lineups.

The good news is that we know Lyles is nowhere near this bad. He really needs more time IMO

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I hate schedule losses.

They still shouldn’t have lost to terrible Toronto regardless, I know, but the schedule and travel sure made it much more possible.