Kings are blowing it with fans

[rainmaker]

Rudy Gay would have improved the team, plain and simple. I don't see how anyone could reasonably say he wouldn't have. And if Gay is your 3rd option, well, you're doing pretty good. Caspi, Greene, Thompson, and Whiteside are all project players who may or may not ever reach their potential. Gay is a player that's playing at a high level now and that would provide needed scoring and depth immediately.

Define improvement.
Letting two young talented prospects waste away on the bench, after clearing room for them to play and develop, does not help in the long run. You can't knock a young player for being young. Everyone has to have time to develop. When we decided to rebuild and clear out the roster, we commited to developing young players. You don't give up on 21 yr olds because they haven't reached their potential yet. I wouldn't want a 21 yr old who is done developing.

What makes you think we need scoring? Did you watch this team last year? We sucked because of defense and rebounding. We improved greatly in those areas this summer. Signing Gay would have killed all flexibility for the near future, as well as make it tough to resign all our young guys when the time comes. It also would kill our youth movement at the sf position.

Way to not respond to the majority of my points. If you want to call someone out for not offering enough "counter points", maybe you should lead by example and show you can actually debate.

 

[Superman]

Rudy Gay would have improved the team, plain and simple. I don't see how anyone could reasonably say he wouldn't have. And if Gay is your 3rd option, well, you're doing pretty good. Caspi, Greene, Thompson, and Whiteside are all project players who may or may not ever reach their potential. Gay is a player that's playing at a high level now and that would provide needed scoring and depth immediately.

Let's assume that Rudy Gay would have improved the team. Let's say we're a 36 win team without him. You think Rudy Gay gives us ten more wins? That's still not good enough to make the playoffs (it's taken 50, 48 and 50 the past three years). And I think it's a s t r e t c h to say that he gives us ten wins. I'm being very liberal with that assumption.

But let's keep running with it. Is ten wins worth $82 million?

Plus, he plays the same position as Donte and Omri, so we'd never give them a chance to develop and turn into either contributors or tradeable assets, and would essentially be wasting two first round draft picks in the process.

I don't think Rudy Gay is as good as he's being paid. I think he's going to be looked at like Rashard Lewis is looked at now: top five worst contract in the NBA. But even still, what you're suggesting we desperately need on our team -- a third scorer -- might already be here. Cisco, Donte, Omri, all three of them have the potential to be a 15ppg scorer for us. We just don't know yet. Let's find out before we go spend a fortune on an average player.

 

[Kingster]

It's too early to get angry about FA. Next year is the year. If we kick the can down the road next year, then yeah, it's time for going ballistic. So, save it up. You might have much to be unhappy about a year from now...

 

[hammystyle]

I'm not too fimiler with the rules. Why exactly would they not have been able to match Memphis' offer?

Memphis was allowed to give him higher raises than any other team. We couldn't have matched the deal. Additionally they came to agreement on this deal within 12 hours of the free agency period. So Memphis locked him up to a bigger contract than anyone else before anyone else could talk to him. Why take a trip if you've got an absurd deal in hand? They might come to their senses and take it away!

It bears noting again...its a completely absurd deal and one that Memphis is sure to regret. You don't pay non-stars like they're stars.

You've said you are in pretty good shape when Rudy Gay is your third best player. Actually Rudy Gay IS Memphis' 3rd or 4th best player depending on how you feel about OJ Mayo...and they didn't even crack .500 last year.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Define improvement.
Letting two young talented prospects waste away on the bench, after clearing room for them to play and develop, does not help in the long run. You can't knock a young player for being young. Everyone has to have time to develop. When we decided to rebuild and clear out the roster, we commited to developing young players. You don't give up on 21 yr olds because they haven't reached their potential yet. I wouldn't want a 21 yr old who is done developing.

What makes you think we need scoring? Did you watch this team last year? We sucked because of defense and rebounding. We improved greatly in those areas this summer. Signing Gay would have killed all flexibility for the near future, as well as make it tough to resign all our young guys when the time comes. It also would kill our youth movement at the sf position.

Way to not respond to the majority of my points. If you want to call someone out for not offering enough "counter points", maybe you should lead by example and show you can actually debate.

I called someone out for offering no counter points, but rather just a boisterous attitude. Let's try not to take things out of context here. In response to some of your points, I'm not as sold on anyone on The Kings roster other than Evans, Cousins, and Landry as maybe other people are. Caspi, Greene, and Thompson are all wildly inconsistent (even for young guys). I don't see any of them being a 3rd option on a contender unless they make some really staggering progress in the next year or two. With the added defense of Dalembert, Landry, and Whiteside I think another scorer like Gay to start with Evans could have worked out wonderfully. Evans/Gay/Cousins would have put three players on the floor who all are capable of demanding a double team. I just don't see how that would be a bad thing.

 

[The Hammer]

Bravado doesn't really impress me. You can make whatever presumptions about me you'd like, or pound your chest about how you could "destroy" everything I said, but that's just talk. If you want to have any type of actual meaningful debate, then offer up some counter points (in a non snarky way) and I'll be glad to consider them.

I didn't make any presumptions about you personally. I chalked it up to bad internet access, to your circumstances. The thing is, you made no specific points in your original post. All you basically said was..."The front office is doing a bad job." Seriously. That's all you really said. You made no points. Then, when asked to provide an idea, you said Rudy Gay. RUDY GAY AT 80 MILLION was your answer. For all we know, Donte might be better than Gay in two years, which is when we make our push anyway. Donte is the far superior defender right now. Donte can legitimately defend three positions. That is huge.

But let me try to smooth things over by focusing on what we might agree on. We do need a high quality third option. Thing is, this summer would be the absolute worst time to try to add one. One, because we might develop the guy right here on this team in Donte, Omri, heck even Landry could improve to that level. Second, we need our young guys to get playing time to develop, and we need time to see what exactly that player should be. Third, the way the market was behaving we'd have severely overpaid. Four, the CBA is looming. Five, Al Horford might be that guy next summer, or any one of a handful of very good players available next summer.

In short, we can't afford to weaken our defense and handcuff ourselves financially for a one dimensional scorer, who is pretty much a classic case of a good player on a bad team who seems better than he really is.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Memphis was allowed to give him higher raises than any other team. Additionally they came to agreement on this deal within 12hours of the free agency period. So Memphis locked him up to a bigger contract than anyone else before anyone else could talk to him. Why take a trip if you've got an absurd deal in hand?

It bears noting again...its a completely absurd deal and one that Memphis is sure to regret. You don't pay non-stars like they're stars.

You've said you are in pretty good shape when Rudy Gay is your third best player. Actually Rudy Gay IS Memphis' 3rd or 4th best player depending on how you feel about OJ Mayo...and they didn't even crack .500 last year.

Not sure I agree he's their 3rd or 4th best player. He was their 2nd highest scorer and led the team in steals.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Let's assume that Rudy Gay would have improved the team. Let's say we're a 36 win team without him. You think Rudy Gay gives us ten more wins? That's still not good enough to make the playoffs (it's taken 50, 48 and 50 the past three years). And I think it's a s t r e t c h to say that he gives us ten wins. I'm being very liberal with that assumption.

But let's keep running with it. Is ten wins worth $82 million?

Plus, he plays the same position as Donte and Omri, so we'd never give them a chance to develop and turn into either contributors or tradeable assets, and would essentially be wasting two first round draft picks in the process.

I don't think Rudy Gay is as good as he's being paid. I think he's going to be looked at like Rashard Lewis is looked at now: top five worst contract in the NBA. But even still, what you're suggesting we desperately need on our team -- a third scorer -- might already be here. Cisco, Donte, Omri, all three of them have the potential to be a 15ppg scorer for us. We just don't know yet. Let's find out before we go spend a fortune on an average player.

It wouldn't have made them a contender this year, but no one short of James or Wade would have done that, and maybe not even them. I'm just not convinced that Greene or Caspi are going to be as good a player as Gay already is now. Maybe they'll prove me wrong and have great seasons in the future for The Kings but right now, I just honestly don't see it.

 

[Entity]

Landry averaging 18 pts a game is above average for 3rd option guys. Tyreke, Cousins, Landry, Greene, Garcia. Who would you overpay to send one of those guys to the bench Just to have a 3rd option. I don't see anybody that we could SERIOUSLY get that is any better than any of our starters thats even if you swap Landry for Thompson.

 

[Superman]

Not sure I agree he's their 3rd or 4th best player. He was their 2nd highest scorer and led the team in steals.

If we didn't have any options at small forward and we could have gotten Rudy Gay on a John Salmons-level contract, I'd have been all for Rudy Gay. But I think that the combination of Donte and Omri has the potential to blow Rudy Gay out of the water, talentwise. And then there's the issue of him making $19 and $22 million a year in the final two years of his contract, when he's projecting to be your 3rd best player and you have to spend big money to keep Tyreke and Cousins. Rudy Gay was and is not the answer to our particular problem.

And we aren't even sure what our particular problem is yet. But Gay just doesn't fit, for myriad reasons. Same thing for Joe Johnson. We didn't have a shot at Bosh, LeBron or Wade. Boozer wanted to play for a contender. Amare was set on New York. Dirk and Pierce never considered other teams. So that takes us back to the original question: What could we have realistically done in free agency that would have made us considerably better, and scratched this itch that some fans seem to have to spend money?

 

[Superman]

It wouldn't have made them a contender this year, but no one short of James or Wade would have done that, and maybe not even them. I'm just not convinced that Greene or Caspi are going to be as good a player as Gay already is now. Maybe they'll prove me wrong and have great seasons in the future for The Kings but right now, I just honestly don't see it.

They don't have to be as good as Rudy Gay. They come at a fraction of the cost.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I didn't make any presumptions about you personally. I chalked it up to bad internet access, to your circumstances. The thing is, you made no specific points in your original post. All you basically said was..."The front office is doing a bad job." Seriously. That's all you really said. You made no points. Then, when asked to provide an idea, you said Rudy Gay. RUDY GAY AT 80 MILLION was your answer. For all we know, Donte might be better than Gay in two years, which is when we make our push anyway. Donte is the far superior defender right now. Donte can legitimately defend three positions. That is huge.

But let me try to smooth things over by focusing on what we might agree on. We do need a high quality third option. Thing is, this summer would be the absolute worst time to try to add one. One, because we might develop the guy right here on this team in Donte, Omri, heck even Landry could improve to that level. Second, we need our young guys to get playing time to develop, and we need time to see what exactly that player should be. Third, the way the market was behaving we'd have severely overpaid. Four, the CBA is looming. Five, Al Horford might be that guy next summer, or any one of a handful of very good players available next summer.

In short, we can't afford to weaken our defense and handcuff ourselves financially for a one dimensional scorer, who is pretty much a classic case of a good player on a bad team who seems better than he really is.

"chalked it up to bad internet access" is the very definition of making presumptions. I.e., you don't agree with my opinions so you figure I must just be ignorant, rather than acknowledge that some folks just have different ideas than others, even when they've both seen the same information. As for no points? I've made numerous points, just none you'd agree with.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

They don't have to be as good as Rudy Gay. They come at a fraction of the cost.

Yeah but that's because they haven't proved they're worth a lot yet, Gay has. Do I think Gay is worth the money he got? No, I don't. I think in a perfect world he's about a 50-60 millions/5 years player. But, I'd rather have a team that's got some overpaid players on the roster that's really good than one that's average but every player comes at a bargain.

 

[hammystyle]

Not sure I agree he's their 3rd or 4th best player. He was their 2nd highest scorer and led the team in steals.

Gasol and Randolph are better, more valuable players. Randolph is clearly, and Gasol is pretty obvious to me too. OJ Mayo is pretty close, but Gay is probably better.

 

[The Hammer]

"chalked it up to bad internet access" is the very definition of making presumptions. I.e., you don't agree with my opinions so you figure I must just be ignorant, rather than acknolwdge that some folkes just have differant ideas that others, even when they've both seen the same imformation. As for no points? I've made numerous points, just none you'd agree with.

You are right. I'm an *******. And we don't agree.

I do take offense though when you call Petrie's success lately all luck. Of course we were lucky. But you have to credit Petrie for deflecting/disguising his interest in Tyreke. The Cousins pick was a no-brainer, I give you that. The Hawes trade was fantastic. The Landry trade was fantastic. These are both moves that came out of nowhere and surprised everybody. Do you give him any credit for any of those moves??

And of course our recent improvement has been a direct result of us stinking in recent years. That's the whole point!!! You've got to be willing to blow up the clown and stink it up to get those high draft picks!! That was the problem for the first few years after Webber's knee blew. We didn't have the guts to do that. Finally the organization had the guts to do that. And they've been paying the price with poor attendance. This was unavoidable. The biting of the bullet.

Can you give Petrie ANY credit whatsoever for our turnaround and complete team attitude makeover... changing every roster spot into a guy with toughness? Or was that all just "luck"??

 

[hammystyle]

"chalked it up to bad internet access" is the very definition of making presumptions. I.e., you don't agree with my opinions so you figure I must just be ignorant, rather than acknowledge that some folks just have different ideas than others, even when they've both seen the same information. As for no points? I've made numerous points, just none you'd agree with.

Sorry to say, but you actually ARE ignorant. You didn't even understand why it was impossible to pay Rudy Gay as much as Memphis did, and how we didn't even have an opportunity to. Yet you're still defending the point.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You are right. I'm an *******. And we don't agree.

I do take offense though when you call Petrie's success lately all luck. Of course we were lucky. But you have to credit Petrie for deflecting/disguising his interest in Tyreke. The Cousins pick was a no-brainer, I give you that. The Hawes trade was fantastic. The Landry trade was fantastic. These are both moves that came out of nowhere and surprised everybody. Do you give him any credit for any of those moves??

And of course our recent improvement has been a direct result of us stinking in recent years. That's the whole point!!! You've got to be willing to blow up the clown and stink it up to get those high draft picks!! That was the problem for the first few years after Webber's knee blew. We didn't have the guts to do that. Finally the organization had the guts to do that. And they've been paying the price with poor attendance. This was unavoidable. The biting of the bullet.

Can you give Petrie ANY credit whatsoever for our turnaround and complete team attitude makeover... changing every roster spot into a guy with toughness? Or was that all just "luck"??

I never singled out Petrie, I included ownership because they had as much if not more to do with why The Kings have been awful the last 5 years as Petrie did. Sure I like the Martin/Landry trade, but it isn't a blockbuster trade or anything. It's trading a finesse player for a tough player. I wasn't crazy about The Hawes/Dalembert trade at the time but drafting Cousins and Whiteside quickly alleviated any concern I had about that. I actually do give Petrie a lot of credit for taking the gamble on Cousins. For awhile there I was afraid they'd play it safe and draft Monroe.

 

[thedofd]

I think "blowing it with the fans" is a bit harsh, but I admit to some disappointment. While I'm a lot more optimistic about the team's future than I was at this point last year, I would have liked to have seen the Kings be more aggressive in trying to shore up the guard line.

They've done what appears (and I'm using "appears" advisedly) to be a great job of improving the front line. Still, I'm still skeptical about how far the 'Reke-Beno-'Cisco-Jeter-Wright backcourt takes you. There were veteran guards available who I think, while they wouldn't have been stop-the-presses acquisitions, would have been good insurance investments. Tony Allen, Raja Bell and Randy Foye, for example, all signed fairly reasonable contracts with Western Conference teams that the Kings aspire to be better than at some point. I'd assume that Allen and Bell, having played on winners, would have been good influences on such a young team.

Maybe there's still a chance to sign a promising athletic player such as a Shannon Brown or perhaps a 3-point specialist such as Eddie House. But signing Jeter and Wright after the excitement of the draft and the Dalembert trade was a minor buzzkill.
I didn't expect the Kings to sign LeBron or Nowitzki or even Mike Miller, and I understand the wisdom of not overspending, especially given the team's history with that sort of thing and the uncertainty of the collective bargaining agreement. But I don't think it's too much to hope for another guard with established NBA talent.

As for the improvement in the frontcourt, I'm rooting for it, praying for it and expecting it. But I think we'd all be wise to temper our expectations a bit. The new batch of big men is an improvement, yes. But Dalembert is a a middle-of-the-road NBA center; Cousins is going to need to get into better shape (I saw him play vs. the Bulls in Vegas, and he simply looked gassed); and by the Kings' admission, Whiteside, while a hoot to watch, is a bit of a project. The forward line is promising, but still has much to prove. So I encourage a blend of optimism and realism. This is an improving team, but still a ways behind the playoff pack.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Sorry to say, but you actually ARE ignorant. You didn't even understand why it was impossible to pay Rudy Gay as much as Memphis did, and how we didn't even have an opportunity to. Yet you're still defending the point.

You're derailing the argument. My initial point was that I was disappointed over the total lack of any serious pursuit of a FA. I was asked to name one I would have like them to pursue, so I named Gay as ONE example. Not being familiar with the details of the CBA as it pertains to Gay, specifically, is hardly sufficient grounds to suggest that someone is ignorant in a broader sense.

 

[cuad]

Dear OP,

Now instead of nothing, we have terrible signings. I hope you are happy, because I am not!

 

[bloom]

I'm not dissapointed at all..the only thing that really bothered me is letting Jon Brockman go to another team. But I love that we're not overspending on any of these free agents, especially with the ridiculous amount of money and years attached with each of these players...I'm really excited about this upcoming year, I love our new rookies and I can't wait to see how the team comes together and how much each of these guys have improved from last year.

 

[Gary]

It would be best if we waited until the new CBA.. Too many crappy contracts handed out to marginal players.. I wouldn't have minded trying to get Jefferson, but not for near 40 mil.

 

[SacTownKid]

Wait and see is the absolute best thing Petrie can do right now. I was way more afraid that he'd go after some middling FA that really doesn't take us anywhere but sideways. This deadline and next summer will be HUGE, just watch.

 

[hammystyle]

You're derailing the argument. My initial point was that I was disappointed over the total lack of any serious pursuit of a FA. I was asked to name one I would have like them to pursue, so I named Gay as ONE example. Not being familiar with the details of the CBA as it pertains to Gay, specifically, is hardly sufficient grounds to suggest that someone is ignorant in a broader sense.

Here's how it went down (paraphrasing):
You said you were disapointed we didn't get anyone.

Incredulous, people said, "Well, who exactly did you want?".

You said, "I was hoping for Rudy Gay."

You derailed your own argument.

Because, other than Rudy Gay then who did you want?...I can blast holes through any single one of them because at the end of the day, the dollars the free agents signed for did not make sense for the Kings. There wasn't a single deal signed where we should have gone over the top of it other than the Miami three. Once you realize that, you won't be disappointed that the Kings didn't do anything in FA.

 

[steelevt]

i agree with the OP in some ways. i was very excited with what the kings did up to the point after the draft. we got dalembert for hawes and got 2 great picks to strengthened out front court. but what happened between then and now is a bit disappointing. we lost a fan favorite in brockman, signed sloan to a contract as well as jeter and wright. now i didnt want the kings to grossly overpay anyone but i didnt want them to do nothing, or worse sign a bunch of crappy players. i would have liked them to sign a shooter or a couple of promising guards. i wouldnt have minded them going after jeremy lin, as a prospect, or bringing barnes back if we wouldnt have had to overpay. shooters like reddick or miller would have been great but i think their price was out of the range we would have liked to pay. so to say the kings are blowing it with fans is a bit of an overstatement, but what the kings have done since the draft is disappointing.

 

[Spike]

But, I'd rather have a team that's got some overpaid players on the roster that's really good than one that's average but every player comes at a bargain.

That doesn't fit what Sacramento is doing here. With Evans & Cousins, you'll have your high money players. Think about how many players on the current team are still on their rookie contract..you can't overpay there. They'll get their money, if that is how you would like to equate worth. The Kings aren't looking to be cheap right now - they see the spending coming down the road.
Let me try it another way: If we overpay for someone like Rudy Gay, at his current 80 million price tag, name TWO of the following kids that you don't want to see on the Kings after their rookie contract is up:

Evans
Greene
Casspi
Thompson
Whiteside
Cousins

That's what it would take.

Or, a secondary question: Who do you currently see on the Kings roster as not having any future potential?
Evans is already a triple-double waiting to happen.
Thompson is consistently a double-double, or close.
Casspi can be an energetic spark of offense.
Greene is a solid defender, and I don't think we've seen his offensive potential yet.
Cousins/Whiteside, too soon to see, but there's plenty of promise, especially if you've seen summer league.

Again, you don't mortgage the future with this kind of youth and talent.
What did OKC do this offseason, btw?

 

[Big Cuz 15]

thanks for the insightful thread.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

That doesn't fit what Sacramento is doing here. With Evans & Cousins, you'll have your high money players. Think about how many players on the current team are still on their rookie contract..you can't overpay there. They'll get their money, if that is how you would like to equate worth. The Kings aren't looking to be cheap right now - they see the spending coming down the road.
Let me try it another way: If we overpay for someone like Rudy Gay, at his current 80 million price tag, name TWO of the following kids that you don't want to see on the Kings after their rookie contract is up:

Evans
Greene
Casspi
Thompson
Whiteside
Cousins

That's what it would take.

Or, a secondary question: Who do you currently see on the Kings roster as not having any future potential?
Evans is already a triple-double waiting to happen.
Thompson is consistently a double-double, or close.
Casspi can be an energetic spark of offense.
Greene is a solid defender, and I don't think we've seen his offensive potential yet.
Cousins/Whiteside, too soon to see, but there's plenty of promise, especially if you've seen summer league.

Again, you don't mortgage the future with this kind of youth and talent.
What did OKC do this offseason, btw?

Where did I say it doesn't have any future potential? Because I was hoping they'd add a piece to give even greater potential doesn't mean I think who they have already doesn't have potential.

 

[Spike]

Where did I say it doesn't have any future potential? Because I was hoping they'd add a piece to give even greater potential doesn't mean I think who they have already doesn't have potential.

You can't have both. If you overpay now, you lose out on the future. Signing Gay means Casspi/Greene don't get the minutes they need, making them want to play elsewhere. Then, you can't max both Evans and Cousins, which you hope the Kings will do, as it means both have developed to the level we want them to.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Here's how it went down (paraphrasing):
You said you were disapointed we didn't get anyone.

Incredulous, people said, "Well, who exactly did you want?".

You said, "I was hoping for Rudy Gay."

You derailed your own argument.

Because, other than Rudy Gay then who did you want?...I can blast holes through any single one of them because at the end of the day, the dollars the free agents signed for did not make sense for the Kings. There wasn't a single deal signed where we should have gone over the top of it other than the Miami three. Once you realize that, you won't be disappointed that the Kings didn't do anything in FA.

Part of the problem here is you're distorting my origonal point. I said I was more disappointed with the fact that they went into this FA year without even making any serious runs at a player even though they had ample cap space available. Then, it got turned into a big debate over Rudy Gay. The problem is, you seem to think your opinions are facts and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is just ignorant.