KG to the Kings??? (merged)

[John Galt]

You might, but I'm willing to bet the Maloofs wouldn't.

Maybe not because they are emotional. But they said after the coaching change they were going to hand over the basketball reins to Geoff right ha ha ha I crack myself up.

But if you take the emotion out of it - you might be left with a more balanced squad with Miller, KG, SAR, Martin, Bibby...

Looking at it in retrospect you effectively trade Peja and the MLE for Kevin freaking Garnett. Executive of the Year stuff!

I'm not proposing we trade last season's Bonzi and Artest... but the next three years of Bonzi and Artest could be an entirely different story.

I still don't actually believe that Garnett is on the table. But any sentence that starts with "the Kings have acquired Kevin Garnett..." I will be happy with. He missed 6 games last year - and put up the same numbers he always has. He is a major freaking star the likes of which we have never had in Sacramento. I'm down with the concept.

 

[VF21]

It's no secret that I've pretty much been lobbying for Kevin Garnett since Feb. 23, 2005. But I'm not willing, at this point, to toss out the baby with the bath water to get him. Miller? Sure. KT? Oh, in a bleeping heartbeat. In fact, I'd even drive him to Minnesota myself. Draft pick? No problem. But when you start getting down to guys like Bibby also thrown in, then I have to really pause. Bibby is our ice man. He's the ONLY clutch shooter we have who thrives on taking that critical shot on a consistent basis. To me, the drop in talent, court sense, etc. we would endure if we did trade Mike away - especially if it involved getting Jaric in return - might seriously cripple us, regardless of the great Kevin Garnett. He has, after all, the same number of rings as Bibby but fewer playoff appearances.

The Maloof family took a big gamble with Artest. As long as he's working out, I see him staying.

Don't get me wrong. If the time does come when the home court announcer says the name Garnett for the Sacramento Kings, I'll be ecstatic. But, as I said above, I wouldn't get rid of Bibby in the process. The two of them are one of the things that would truly take this team into the stratosphere. AND I firmly believe Garnett would not come if his PG was going to be Jaric.

Just my three cents...

 

[kingkung]

It's no secret that I've pretty much been lobbying for Kevin Garnett since Feb. 22, 2005.

Feb 22? I guess that's the trade deadline? I know that Webber was traded on the 23rd.

 

[Mike0476]

He has, after all, the same number of rings Bibby has BUT Bibby has at least been to the WCF. Garnett hasn't.

Minnesota was in the WCF in 2004 against the Lakers.

 

[VF21]

Oops. I really blew it, didn't I?



The Feb. 22 was a typo. The comment about Garnett not being in the WCF was a brain fart.

 

[john88]

Hey everyone, this is my first post but I've followed this site for quite a while...I've just thought of a trade possibility that to my knowledge no-one else has mentioned:

Even though Bibby and Miller are both nice players, I don't see the Wolves trading Garnett for a package based on them. However, there has also been a lot of talk recently about a possible Jermaine O'neal trade in Indiana, and I think Jermaine is the type of player that would tempt the Wolves. Here's my proposal for a three-way SAC, MIN, INDY trade (salarys all match on ESPN trade machine):

SAC Trades:
Bibby (to Indy)
KT (to Indy)
Brad (to Minny)

MIN Trades:
Garnett (to Sac)
Jaric (to Sac)
Ricky Davis (to Indy)

INDY Trades:
J.O. (to Minny)
Stephen Jackson (to Minny)
Jamal Tinsley (to Sac)

So, the Kings end up with KG, and some nice (although not spectacular) players to plug the point guard hole in Tinsley and Jaric. Minny gets a "star" player in return for KG with JO, a good center in Miller, and a player to fill the SF hole (Stephen Jackson). Indy starts off it's rebuilding process, and manages to unload its unwanted players (Tinsley and Jackson) for Bibby, Ricky Davis and K.T. Indy may possibly be getting the raw end of the deal a little, but draft picks could be added to sweeten the offer. What do you all think?

 

[VF21]

Interesting ... and you may have hit upon something. Indy isn't that happy with Tinsley because he's never healthy. And they're willing to cut SJ loose, from what I've read at PacersDigest. The only fly in the ointment might well be whether they're willing to get rid of O'Neal.

Does this work through a trade checker as far as the numbers go?

.................

Welcome, BTW. Nice first post.

 

[john88]

According to the ESPN trade checker, all the salaries match up

 

[Mike0476]

Oops. I really blew it, didn't I?



The Feb. 22 was a typo. The comment about Garnett not being in the WCF was a brain fart.

We are all allowed to have a brain fart every now and then.

I also want to add the three team trade does sound very interesting. Imagine if that went down and we were able to resign Bonzi and get Przybilla with the MLE.

Possible 2006-2007 Sacramento Kings -

KG
Artest
Przybilla
Wells
Tinsley

SAR
Cisco
VP
Martin
Jaric

Williamson
Hart
Price

Too bad we cannot keep Bibby to have a one-two punch of him and KG.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Hey everyone, this is my first post but I've followed this site for quite a while...I've just thought of a trade possibility that to my knowledge no-one else has mentioned:

Even though Bibby and Miller are both nice players, I don't see the Wolves trading Garnett for a package based on them. However, there has also been a lot of talk recently about a possible Jermaine O'neal trade in Indiana, and I think Jermaine is the type of player that would tempt the Wolves. Here's my proposal for a three-way SAC, MIN, INDY trade (salarys all match on ESPN trade machine):

SAC Trades:
Bibby (to Indy)
KT (to Indy)
Brad (to Minny)

MIN Trades:
Garnett (to Sac)
Jaric (to Sac)
Ricky Davis (to Indy)

INDY Trades:
J.O. (to Minny)
Stephen Jackson (to Minny)
Jamal Tinsley (to Sac)

So, the Kings end up with KG, and some nice (although not spectacular) players to plug the point guard hole in Tinsley and Jaric. Minny gets a "star" player in return for KG with JO, a good center in Miller, and a player to fill the SF hole (Stephen Jackson). Indy starts off it's rebuilding process, and manages to unload its unwanted players (Tinsley and Jackson) for Bibby, Ricky Davis and K.T. Indy may possibly be getting the raw end of the deal a little, but draft picks could be added to sweeten the offer. What do you all think?

very creative and i think this could be done if indy was to pull the trigger

 

[swisshh]

You can't give up Bibby. KG needs a decent PG who can shoot with him. The TWolves have had KG his whole career, but their success has always depended on the quality and health of their PG more so than just KG himself.

 

[KingsFan93]

Bibby, KT & Peja re-united in Indy? Seems like a new Kings team to me

 

[Sac.Kings]

I think that if Bibby is traded and we dont get a good PG in return then the trade for KG would be almost worthless. We need Bibby to be the shooter and the guy who creates or the Kings are gonna look like the new TWolves if we trade away Bibby and get garbage in return.

 

[DocHolliday]

I think that if Bibby is traded and we dont get a good PG in return then the trade for KG would be almost worthless. We need Bibby to be the shooter and the guy who creates or the Kings are gonna look like the new TWolves if we trade away Bibby and get garbage in return.

I agree. I'm not comfortable giving up Bibby even if it is for KG.

 

[SacKingFan_23]

Dis would b a stupid trade for the Wolves. Miller & Thomas 2 older big men who gotz skillz but could neva get the team a ring and Wells whoz neva been a huge star.. for 1 of the best players in the game???????? WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That juz makes no sense for Minnesota.

Sacramento, on the other hand..Bibby Martin Artest Garnett and who eva?...that would just be sick.

 

[nbrans]

Dis would b a stupid trade for the Wolves. Miller & Thomas 2 older big men who gotz skillz but could neva get the team a ring and Wells whoz neva been a huge star.. for 1 of the best players in the game???????? WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That juz makes no sense for Minnesota.

Sacramento, on the other hand..Bibby Martin Artest Garnett and who eva?...that would just be sick.

Hey, no disrespect intended, but could you try and spell things out? This is incredibly hard to read.

 

[Bricklayer]

I agree. I'm not comfortable giving up Bibby even if it is for KG.

While I like Bibby + pre-Artest he was the one guy (as Artest is now) I would NOT have traded to get KG -- indeed in the Princeton he would have been the perfect pick and roll partner for Garnett-as-reincarnation-of-Webb -- the fact is he is a no-time All-Star with major defensive issues who pretty much flopped in the playoffs. Meanwhile Garnett is a perennial All-Star, All League perfomer, All Defense, former MVP, first ballot HOFer. There is no comparison. You fight to avoid giving Bibby up if possible. You offer up SAR, kids, picks, whatever as alternatrives. But then you just do it. Think the Heat have any questions about giving up Odom and Butler to get Shaq? There are really good players, and then there are great ones. You have to be able to distinguish between the two.

 

[VF21]

Two things:

1. Welcome to the West Coast, nbrans!

2. It looks like this year's topic for debate will be whether or not to let Bibby go if it means acquiring Garnett...

I love this place.

 

[DocHolliday]

While I like Bibby + pre-Artest he was the one guy (as Artest is now) I would NOT have traded to get KG -- indeed in the Princeton he would have been the perfect pick and roll partner for Garnett-as-reincarnation-of-Webb -- the fact is he is a no-time All-Star with major defensive issues who pretty much flopped in the playoffs. Meanwhile Garnett is a perennial All-Star, All League perfomer, All Defense, former MVP, first ballot HOFer. There is no comparison. You fight to avoid giving Bibby up if possible. You offer up SAR, kids, picks, whatever as alternatrives. But then you just do it. Think the Heat have any questions about giving up Odom and Butler to get Shaq? There are really good players, and then there are great ones. You have to be able to distinguish between the two.

I completely understand all that. My only problem is it leaves a huge hole at PG. I don't keep up on all the rules and in's and out's of the CBA. But, from what I understand we can't just go signing another guy over the cap. YOu can really only go out and spend up to the cap, and have certain rules about how much per contract. Now you can trade and be above the cap, that I understand. But if we traded Miller, Bibby and a pick, who else are we going to trade now to get a PG?? I mean are we going to get a really good quality point guard for KT and hart??

I mean it looks good for the other team they are getting big for small, but are we really going to get a quality PG?? If you don't have a quality PG you have squat as demonstrated by many teams INCLUDING the timberwolves. KG did a whole lot for that franchise this last year didn't he?? I mean they made a strong run in the playofffs. Oh, wait, they weren't in the playoffs! You see what I'm saying?

 

[nbrans]

Two things:

1. Welcome to the West Coast, nbrans!

2. It looks like this year's topic for debate will be whether or not to let Bibby go if it means acquiring Garnett...

I love this place.

Thank you!! It's good to be back on the West Coast (more Kings games for me!)

And now for my two cents on this season's TDOS topic du jour:

Bibby has been a flop in three out of the last four playoffs, he's extremely inconsistent and he's probably the worst defending point guard in the league. Even Jason Williams has improved on defense more than Bibby. I think anyone who wouldn't give up Bibby in a trade for Garnett is drowning in nostalgia.

 

[VF21]

Thank you!! It's good to be back on the West Coast (more Kings games for me!)

And now for my two cents on this season's TDOS topic du jour:

Bibby has been a flop in three out of the last four playoffs, he's extremely inconsistent and he's probably the worst defending point guard in the league. Even Jason Williams has improved on defense more than Bibby. I think anyone who wouldn't give up Bibby in a trade for Garnett is drowning in nostalgia.

Mike was also so banged up by the end of the year it's a miracle he could play at all. Having Jason Hart as your backup isn't good for you if you're a point guard, as we certainly found out.

I've said it before. I would love to see Kevin Garnett on the Kings. But I'm looking forward to seeing what a new coach, new staff, new attitude, etc. can do with our team. I don't want to have to regret trading away a point guard with the knowledge and skills of Mike Bibby only to find out it was, in fact, the one piece really needed to complement Garnett and the rest of the team.

And I still think Garnett knows even better than we do just how valuable a good point guard is.

 

[nbrans]

I'm just pretty skeptical that anyone, new coaching staff included, could get Bibby to play defense. Some of it isn't his fault -- when the Kings were a good defensive team in 2002 the best point guards were Kidd, Payton, Nash... guys who were athletic, but they didn't have blinding speed. The game has kind of passed Bibby by. Now you have Parker, Ford, Paul... Bibby just isn't in the same league athletically as those guys. So now you're in a position where Bibby is consistently giving up as many points as he's getting. He might be better with shotblocking behind him, but I'd rather get Garnett and find someone very quick and not as highly heralded (Knight, Watson, banks) to man the point guard position. The offense would go through Garnett and Artest anyway.

 

[VF21]

The offense might go through Garnett and/or Artest, but someone has to get them the ball. Someone has to pose an outside threat to draw the defense out. Someone has to be able to read the floor. I just don't see us getting a good enough PG to complement Garnett with what's out there and available. But that's just my take. I was wrong ... at least so far... about Artest, so I could well be wrong about this, too.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I don't think Bibby is untouchable but if you let him go you need another top quality PG in return. I don't think this is a case of blind loyalty to his 2002 performance, its just a matter of not having any good options at the spot. The other proposed trade candidates are much easier to part with because they no longer fit our team needs (KT, Brad) or because we have plenty of depth at their spot (Bonzi). We've gotten so accustomed to having solid play at the PG spot that I wonder how many people remember the decade or so that we seemed to be lost in the wilderness on a never ending quest for "The Point Guard".

 

[Bricklayer]

I completely understand all that. My only problem is it leaves a huge hole at PG. I don't keep up on all the rules and in's and out's of the CBA. But, from what I understand we can't just go signing another guy over the cap. YOu can really only go out and spend up to the cap, and have certain rules about how much per contract. Now you can trade and be above the cap, that I understand. But if we traded Miller, Bibby and a pick, who else are we going to trade now to get a PG?? I mean are we going to get a really good quality point guard for KT and hart??

I mean it looks good for the other team they are getting big for small, but are we really going to get a quality PG?? If you don't have a quality PG you have squat as demonstrated by many teams INCLUDING the timberwolves. KG did a whole lot for that franchise this last year didn't he?? I mean they made a strong run in the playofffs. Oh, wait, they weren't in the playoffs! You see what I'm saying?

If you look at the PGs who have won the title in the past 15 years, here are the names:

BJ Armstrong/John Paxson
Kenny Smith
Ron Harper
Avery Johnson
Ron Harper
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker (young -- 15.5ppg 5.3apg)
Chauncey Billups (16.9pts 5.7ast)
Tony Parker (16.6pts 6.1ast)
Jason Williams or Jason Terry

Not one of those guys was an All-Star in the year he won the title. Onyl a handful have ever been All-Stars. If Terry wins this year he might have the most impressive stats for any championship PG since Zeke.

None of which is to make the expansive argument that you CAN'T win with a top PG, but simply the proven one that you don't NEED a top PG if you have the rest. A solid guy is enough. Heck in 01-02, the closest we ever came, Bibby himself was a 13.7pt 5.0ast guy all season until the big series.

So let's say the trade was made, and its Bibby, Brad, KT, and the #19.

here are the possibilities:

1) a Minny guy comes back as well -- Hudson or Jaric.
2) FAs -- who's out there? Cassel, Banks, Claxton, Terry, Fred Jones, Bobby Jackson.
3) trade -- on the assumption that you absolutely resign Bonzi in that case, we have ending contracts (Corliss, Potapenko) and likely an expendable kid in the overcrowded 2/3 positions. Brevin Knight is supposedly available for instance. Others as well I'm sure. You could also theoretically try to sign and trade Bonzi for a PG.

Out of all that:
Hudson -- not a fan. Soft. But started for the Wolves int he past and put up 14.2pts and 5.7ast as a starter -- better numbers than Bibby in 01-02 actually.
Jaric -- 6'7" and quite possibly cut from the Ron Harper mold of pseudo--"PGs". Liek Harper would be on a team where all he'd have to do is bring it up, defened, spot up. Harper has 4 rings.
Cassel -- ancient and creaky obviously. And completely obnoxious. What a personality timebomb that team would be! On the other hand led the Wolves to the WCF two years back, took the Clippers to a Game 7 in the semi's this year, and wears two rings on his fingers. Has always had a game somewhat like an older Bibby, except with psot game.
Banks -- too young probably
Claxton -- 13.1pts 6.2ast for Golden State two years ago before the Baron trade. Again = to Bibby in 01-02. Doesn't mean he's as good. But does mean he might be good enough given the rest of the team.
Terry -- obviously solid gold, but also not going anywhere, least of all to us. No way Cuban let's that happen.
Jones -- restricted unfortunately. Because on a team loaded up with KG, Artest, Bonzi, SAR etc., Jones's creativity limitations might not be that significant. Defends, hits threes. But Indy will keep him I would think.
Jackson -- could he still do it at his age? Has the right spirit for that lineup.
Knight -- reminscient of the Little General when he won a title. Smart, runs the team. It can be enough given other horses.

Its amazing how mediocre PGs can become champions if you pair them with real talent. We wouldn't get an All Star back, but then again, history says you don't need an All Star (nor, for that matter, have we ever had an All Star PG in the Sacramento era so far as I recall). But we might just get a guy who's good enough.

 

[DocHolliday]

If you look at the PGs who have won the title in the past 15 years, here are the names:

BJ Armstrong/John Paxson
Kenny Smith
Ron Harper
Avery Johnson
Ron Harper
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker (young -- 15.5ppg 5.3apg)
Chauncey Billups (16.9pts 5.7ast)
Tony Parker (16.6pts 6.1ast)
Jason Williams or Jason Terry

Not one of those guys was an All-Star in the year he won the title. Onyl a handful have ever been All-Stars. If Terry wins this year he might have the most impressive stats for any championship PG since Zeke.

None of which is to make the expansive argument that you CAN'T win with a top PG, but simply the proven one that you don't NEED a top PG if you have the rest. A solid guy is enough. Heck in 01-02, the closest we ever came, Bibby himself was a 13.7pt 5.0ast guy all season until the big series.

So let's say the trade was made, and its Bibby, Brad, KT, and the #19.

here are the possibilities:

1) a Minny guy comes back as well -- Hudson or Jaric.
2) FAs -- who's out there? Cassel, Banks, Claxton, Terry, Fred Jones, Bobby Jackson.
3) trade -- on the assumption that you absolutely resign Bonzi in that case, we have ending contracts (Corliss, Potapenko) and likely an expendable kid in the overcrowded 2/3 positions. Brevin Knight is supposedly available for instance. Others as well I'm sure. You could also theoretically try to sign and trade Bonzi for a PG.

Out of all that:
Hudson -- not a fan. Soft. But started for the Wolves int he past and put up 14.2pts and 5.7ast as a starter -- better numbers than Bibby in 01-02 actually.
Jaric -- 6'7" and quite possibly cut from the Ron Harper mold of pseudo--"PGs". Liek Harper would be on a team where all he'd have to do is bring it up, defened, spot up. Harper has 4 rings.
Cassel -- ancient and creaky obviously. And completely obnoxious. What a personality timebomb that team would be! On the other hand led the Wolves to the WCF two years back, took the Clippers to a Game 7 in the semi's this year, and wears two rings on his fingers. Has always had a game somewhat like an older Bibby, except with psot game.
Banks -- too young probably
Claxton -- 13.1pts 6.2ast for Golden State two years ago before the Baron trade. Again = to Bibby in 01-02. Doesn't mean he's as good. But does mean he might be good enough given the rest of the team.
Terry -- obviously solid gold, but also not going anywhere, least of all to us. No way Cuban let's that happen.
Jones -- restricted unfortunately. Because on a team loaded up with KG, Artest, Bonzi, SAR etc., Jones's creativity limitations might not be that significant. Defends, hits threes. But Indy will keep him I would think.
Jackson -- could he still do it at his age? Has the right spirit for that lineup.
Knight -- reminscient of the Little General when he won a title. Smart, runs the team. It can be enough given other horses.

Its amazing how mediocre PGs can become champions if you pair them with real talent. We wouldn't get an All Star back, but then again, history says you don't need an All Star (nor, for that matter, have we ever had an All Star PG in the Sacramento era so far as I recall). But we might just get a guy who's good enough.

Sure you can get a guy that's good enough, but the question is HOW, and who. It just leaves me unsettled. I don't like TOO many changes all at once. I think VF21 said it. Don't go changing too much at once, you may find out with some of the other changes, something you got rid of would have worked now with the first change you made.

 

[NoBonus]

If you look at the PGs who have won the title in the past 15 years, here are the names:

BJ Armstrong/John Paxson
Kenny Smith
Ron Harper
Avery Johnson
Ron Harper
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker (young -- 15.5ppg 5.3apg)
Chauncey Billups (16.9pts 5.7ast)
Tony Parker (16.6pts 6.1ast)
Jason Williams or Jason Terry

Not one of those guys was an All-Star in the year he won the title. Onyl a handful have ever been All-Stars. If Terry wins this year he might have the most impressive stats for any championship PG since Zeke.

None of which is to make the expansive argument that you CAN'T win with a top PG, but simply the proven one that you don't NEED a top PG if you have the rest. A solid guy is enough. Heck in 01-02, the closest we ever came, Bibby himself was a 13.7pt 5.0ast guy all season until the big series.

So let's say the trade was made, and its Bibby, Brad, KT, and the #19.

here are the possibilities:

1) a Minny guy comes back as well -- Hudson or Jaric.
2) FAs -- who's out there? Cassel, Banks, Claxton, Terry, Fred Jones, Bobby Jackson.
3) trade -- on the assumption that you absolutely resign Bonzi in that case, we have ending contracts (Corliss, Potapenko) and likely an expendable kid in the overcrowded 2/3 positions. Brevin Knight is supposedly available for instance. Others as well I'm sure. You could also theoretically try to sign and trade Bonzi for a PG.

Out of all that:
Hudson -- not a fan. Soft. But started for the Wolves int he past and put up 14.2pts and 5.7ast as a starter -- better numbers than Bibby in 01-02 actually.
Jaric -- 6'7" and quite possibly cut from the Ron Harper mold of pseudo--"PGs". Liek Harper would be on a team where all he'd have to do is bring it up, defened, spot up. Harper has 4 rings.
Cassel -- ancient and creaky obviously. And completely obnoxious. What a personality timebomb that team would be! On the other hand led the Wolves to the WCF two years back, took the Clippers to a Game 7 in the semi's this year, and wears two rings on his fingers. Has always had a game somewhat like an older Bibby, except with psot game.
Banks -- too young probably
Claxton -- 13.1pts 6.2ast for Golden State two years ago before the Baron trade. Again = to Bibby in 01-02. Doesn't mean he's as good. But does mean he might be good enough given the rest of the team.
Terry -- obviously solid gold, but also not going anywhere, least of all to us. No way Cuban let's that happen.
Jones -- restricted unfortunately. Because on a team loaded up with KG, Artest, Bonzi, SAR etc., Jones's creativity limitations might not be that significant. Defends, hits threes. But Indy will keep him I would think.
Jackson -- could he still do it at his age? Has the right spirit for that lineup.
Knight -- reminscient of the Little General when he won a title. Smart, runs the team. It can be enough given other horses.

Its amazing how mediocre PGs can become champions if you pair them with real talent. We wouldn't get an All Star back, but then again, history says you don't need an All Star (nor, for that matter, have we ever had an All Star PG in the Sacramento era so far as I recall). But we might just get a guy who's good enough.

I think the real question is which of the championship teams won the championship WITHOUT an all-star center or power forward...

 

[CaminoChaos]

One point I would like to bring up is Bibby played good defense under Larry Brown for the National team. Bibby even said it himself that under Larry Brown if you dont play D you don't play. Maybe Muss will put a fire under him.

But if you have a chance to get KG, I say pull the trigger. We would have enough scoring power so having a 2nd rate PG with good defensive skills would probably work out. on this team.

 

[bench_blob]

Get real past 30 is 31 ...32 etc....right now he's 30 year's old and will be until next may 19th

OK...lets follow your logic...he's NOT past 30...so he's 29 and how many days ...um 365 days plus 30...so he's 29 and 375 days old...Is that more accurate??!

OK he's not "past" 30 in terms of years....BUT he's "over" 30 in terms of age...and he's an OLD "30" because of the years in the league and minutes per year he has played.

And one more comment...."WHy am I wasting my timw with this?!""

Bottom line is this guy is NOT a young pup....he has lost a little explosiveness...not as quick...T'Wolves know it and any astute observer knows it.....so Kings have no reason to give away the FARM to get this guy.

Bibby should be off the table in any deal that includes Miller and Bonzi.

 

[whozit]

OK he's not "past" 30 in terms of years....BUT he's "over" 30 in terms of age...and he's an OLD "30" because of the years in the league and minutes per year he has played.

Bibby should be off the table in any deal that includes Miller and Bonzi.

Good point about the age relative to wear and tear from the number of years in the league.

I think a number of the proposals have Bibby replacing Bonzi, not including both plus Brad. Bonzi being included as initially rumored created problems considering his current FA status. If the deal included all three, way TOO much.