A
AriesMar27
Guest
i still like my original idea of martin/thomas/beno(nocioni) for mcgrady... i doubt that houston would want nocioni so beno is the player that we get rid of....
Kevin Martin Sweepstakes
- Thread starter NorCal Reed
- Start date
DoDiGaG0
Bench
Kevin martin is much much much better than what you think
Problem is that for the least 3 years he's been the COMPLETE attention of all defenses... imagine if he played with Yao...
I don't think they would have a CHOICE but to take Nocioni and they would most likely have to throw a couple picks our way as well....
Whats the point of keeping McGrady though? send him to Cleveland for Z and Hickson or Chicago for Miller/Gibson...atleast we get a prospect...
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That's not even remotely true -- we have seen this year what it looks like when a player gets the complete attention of the opposing team's defense, and Kevin has never drawn that. Rarely has he been doubled. Almsot never trapped. Frankly teams never cared that much. Certainly not enough to bend their defense toward him.
On the other hand the only player we really had who COULD bend a defense and draw a double was Artest. So while Kevin was hardly smothered, neither was he benefitting from one of his teammates drawing that sort of attention. Maybe now he will, although its been noted, by me mostly since nobody else seems to get this, that rarely is a double on one guard going to come from the second guard's man.
beb0p
Starter
Actually it does. It takes no less than the alignment of the stars for us to land Bosh. It's a fantasy. A nice dream.
Think about it, if Toronto makes Bosh available then half the league will put together serious packages for him. Some of you think of it as a trade - a one to one negotiation process like buying a car. It's not. It's a bidding war with the Kings competing with multiple bidders.
The Kings are not the only team with expirings and young player. Forget KMart, Toronto will not want KMart if they're trading away Bosh. In fact, they may even make you take Hedo off their hands. The T-Wolves can put together a great package around Al Jefferson and they may even throw in Ricky Rubio. The Lakers have denied offering Bynum but if Bosh is available, they'd be crazy not to go after him with a package around Bynum. NY can offer David Lee + any of the young players. Houston can offer to take Hedo plus throw in Carl Landry and draft pick. What I'm saying is, the Kings have to beat all the packages out there. I'm pretty sure they won't.
DoDiGaG0
Bench
^^^^^^^^^^ true 99.9% of the time
thats why Basketball is ideally a game played from the inside - out
the ability for a big to draw a double can just about allow ANYONE to get open with correct spacing/feeds
look how the lakers changed with Gasol... say whatever you want about a faster game that relies less on size... but look at who's been willing recently...All the teams(maybe except the Pistons in 05 had dominant bigs who could draw doubles)
hammystyle
Starter
If the Lakers offer Bynum then that's tough to beat. The rest of the offers you mention are either unlikely or not that hard to beat.
Minny: Jefferson and (maybe) Rubio - This would certainly beat our offer, but the T-Wolves are worse than the Raptors. So what's in it for Bosh?
NY: David lee and any of the young players: So you can't win with Bosh, but David Lee and Danilo Gallinari are getting it done?
Houston: Takes Hedo, gives Landry and a low first round pick - The core of this offer is a 26 year old undersized PF with one year left on his deal. They could add other interesting pieces like Ariza, and the cap space would help. But it's not an unbeatable deal.
Sacramento: Martin and JT or Hawes. - Maybe they can beat this deal. But what if we throw in our #1? What if we added Casspi or Greene? What if we add KT and take back a contract? The point is this is not a wasteful exercise. We have cheap young talent, established young veterans, expiring contracts, and a lotto pick. What exactly do you think Toronto is gonna be looking for?
Last edited:
Padrino
All-Star
the lakers would be kinda crazy to make a run at chris bosh, imo...
they won a championship with kobe bryant and pau gasol and a fantastic set of roleplayers. they're lookin' to win another after adding ron artest, which can only be considered a success on the court, to this point, despite his present run of injuries. adding chris bosh, an offensive-minded player, while trading away andrew bynum, a potential frontcourt defensive anchor, is like adding another cook to an already successful and tightly run kitchen. its a major risk...
both pau gasol and ron artest have fit in nicely next to bryant, deferring to him when its asked of them to do so, while providing excellent help on both sides of the ball. andrew bynum is the role playing defensive/rebounding big with tons of upside that you simply DO NOT trade away, especially for a player like chris bosh, who's an offensive nightmare and a rebounding machine, but not particularly skilled defensively. the lakers don't need another player to take the ball out of bryant's hands. they're doing just fine offensively. they need to develop more consistency on the defensive side of the ball...
people question whether the gasol/bynum frontcourt is "working out," but i think they tend to forget that bynum is still only 22 years old!! the kid's gonna be an asset for years to come, long after kobe bryant starts to fade away. i would think the lakers figure they have a really great shot at winning another championship with their lineup as-is, and i think they like bynum for the future, because he's only gonna get better, regardless of how slow his learning curve may be. i don't know why the lakers would be interested in a major shakeup when the only real contenders out east appear to be the cavs and celtics, both of which they can handle in a seven-game series...
The stars do align sometimes. Bosh may have already told Toronto he is leaving, nobody expects him to stay. We have a ton of young talent, the question is how much we're willing to give up. Martin and JT or Hawes works, but we can also sweeten with good players or expiring contracts or a likely 2010 lotto pick. None of these things are worth Bosh straight up but some combo will make a bitter pill hard to swallow. It is worth discussing because that's what we do here.
Tell me though, what is your solution because all I really see is you shooting every proposal for available big men down.
hammystyle
Starter
OVer the last two years the Lakers have been at their best with Pau at C, and Odom on top of his game at PF. Bosh's average play is basically Odom's absolute best. It would be really hard to picture scenarios where they don't win at least two or three more titles with Kobe/ Bosh/ Gasol/ Artest/Odom. At least none that don't involve Lebron and Wade pairing up in Miami, or a catastrophic injury to one of the Lakers three main guys.
So on the court, its a no-brainer. I really don't see why Bynum at 22 is that much better of a long-term asset than Bosh at 25.
The main thing would be money. Bosh would probably command a salary 4-6M more per year than Bynum, and that cost would be doubled because they are way above the luxury tax. Is Buss willing to spend 10M more per year to go from a 50/50 favorite to a 80/20 favorite? Plus they might be able to better their odds more cheaply with a PG or bench upgrade.
BTW - The Lakers can be had as is though they're certainly in good shape. Cavs depending on who they get might even be favored. A healthy Celtics team could be too. Magic with a healthy Nelson would be a major problen, as would strong efforts from the Spurs or Nuggets.
Last edited:
A
AriesMar27
Guest
well we cant get any picks from houston because they traded their 1st rounder to us last year and i dont want any of their undersized bigs... mcgrady would mostly be a salary dump of martin and benos contracts. i doubt that they would want nocioni because they already have enough players at his position.... battier, ariza and chase... but lowry is an expiring, beno is better than he is and would play well under adelman. so beno became the most obvious choice for me. i would have no problem sending tmac to the cavs if we traded for him. we wouldnt need him... but if he's healthy and can play we might as well play him. maybe evans, donte and casspi could learn a thing or two from a former elite level player... sucks about the injuries, mcgrady was an amazing player.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
thats the problem that i originally thought of with the evans/martin situation. they'll probably double off donte or switch the pg on to him and force him to beat them that way. like how the sixers had iverson guarding donte.
beb0p
Starter
I don't have a solution and one is not needed because there is no problem to begin with. Everything is going according to plan. This year is all about playing the kids, so let's give them mins and see what you have. We are not in a "win-now" mode, there is no need to make any trade.
There is no reason to think Bosh has told anyone he is leaving. And the Raptors have been very adamant about keeping Bosh. It's perfectly fine to discuss trade scenarios but most of the trades are one-sided ripoff that heavily benefit the Kings. Me and many others have pointed out the most basic rule of any Bosh trade - a trade has to completely knock their socks off. No trade I've seen even come close.
beb0p
Starter
I was just throwing out scenarios. To make the Raptors give away one of the best in the game, it's gonna take a lot more than what I've proposed. Like many have said, you have to knock their socks off. A trade so good for the Raptors that they can't possibly refuse.
Now, if Bosh publicly demands a trade then it's a different scenario. But as of now, regardless of where you think Bosh is going next summer, you still have to pay the premium to get Bosh. There is no fire sale here.
What exactly do you think Toronto is gonna be looking for?
This is a very good question. If you're the Raptors who'd you want? Which King immediately jumps out at you? You're giving up a multiple All-Star and possibly future HOFer, who'd you get in return? Remember, this is like some team asking you to give away Chris Webber in his prime.
Toronto is going to ask for either a young star player or a very high draft pick (top 3) in return. This is the going rate for a young PF. Elton Brand was traded for the #2 pick. KG was traded for Al Jefferson and Gerald Green (at that time still considered a can't-miss prospect). KMart, JT, and Hawes are not going to get it done. They're not stars.
If I'm Toronto there is only one player from the Kings who can entice me to give up Bosh. And the Kings are not trading that guy. Hence, why I think a trade is almost impossible.
Last edited:
Vlade4GM
All-Star
There is also no guarantee he would agree to a sign and trade.
Last edited:
Except that as soon as Martin re-enters the picture the kids are going to lose their minutes. We aren't in win now mode, but we're also a better team than expected. We're not going to get to a championship level drafting 10-14 every year and nobody wants to go through another year like last year so you gotta make a trade or sign a free agent. I think our trading chips are better than going against all the big cities in the league.
hammystyle
Starter
Couple things:
1) Gerald Green was NOT considered a can't miss prospect at the time. He was an interesting young guy.
2) If you recall, we actually did trade for Chris Webber in his prime. Washington would kill for the Kmart JT package.
There is one crucial difference between the deals you mention and any potential Bosh deal. None of those guys were pending free agents. Do you, they, or anyone in basketball acually think he's gonna stay with that team? Common sense ins't always right, but its a good place to start.
They lose whatever leverage they have to make a deal at this trading deadline. They'll have next to none if they attempt a S&T.
So if they want to maximize their value, they open up the bidding now. The Bynum deal is legit, Portland could make an offer, but if all we cared about was having Tyreke and Bosh...we absolutely cuold present them with a Godfather offer of some combo of Martin, JT, Hawes, Greene, Casspi, KT's contract and our #1 pick.
Its possible or even probable that the deal they'd say yes to is too steep for us, but its obtuse to say its impossible.
est.1999
Starter
Bynum is beyond overrated. I watch every lakers game. The lakers would be crazy not to deal him for Bosh. And at the same time the raptors would be crazy to the deal as well. Bynum makes alot of money and won't do much for that team. Believe me. He only played one year of basketball growing up in his senior year before he was drafted. He lacks the killer instinct. He lacks the will to win. He's got Kobe and Gasol to guide him and give him confidence. In Toronto he will completely lose all of what he has confidence wise. And he doesn't have much to begin with anyways.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
ditto... the lakers would be fools to not make that deal if it were available... though i doubt that it would be worth it for the raptors. who else would they send to make the money match? bynum and walton for bosh? if people thought that the lakers robbed the grizzlies in the gasol trade this would take the cake.
beb0p
Starter
The first part I agree, that's why I've been saying trade Noc and Beno since before the season began.
Second part not so much, I for one, don't mind another trip to the lottery as long as the kids get mins.
beb0p
Starter
I know someone will bring up Webber. You may as well bring up Pau Gasol for his brother and scrubs. Those are once in a decade deals - a deal so lopsided that it happens roughly once every ten years. If that's what you're banking on then Evans will be around 30 before you find a sucker.
Funny you brought up Webber. What did the Kings do when Webber's contract was up in 2001? Using your logic, the Kings should have traded him during the 2000-01 season. What do you think Petrie said to teams that approached him with a Webber trade proposal in early 2001? It's the same thing Toronto will say to any team that approaches with a Bosh trade in 2010.
.
beb0p
Starter
No they weren't. They were competitive but few thought them championship caliber until Bibby arrived... after the 00-01 season.
But what's relevant is that Toronto is not in a fire sale. That may change but for now they have every intention to resign Bosh. In fact, if they are to make a trade, it will probably be to reinforce the team to go deep into the playoff.
Last edited:
est.1999
Starter
You have a point. They weren't championship caliber. Yet. But they were winning 50+ games a year. And webber obviously knew this. And he knew he'd stay. He just wanted a bigger contract. Bosh knows the Raptors are a giant turd of a franchise and he's gonna want out no matter what!
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
You're wrong. Bosh has publicly stated, as recent as last month, that he loves Toronto, loves being "the man", and likes the fact it is far from his hometown of Dallas because he has less distractions to deal with. He's able to concentrate on basketball, and basketball only in Toronto.
It is definately not a given that Bosh will leave.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That's a load of ahistorical baloney. We won 55 games in Webb's final season and were on SI's cover as the team of the future. Short of winning a title, we had done everything that could have been done, and Webb's seasons with us were full of an uninterrupted string of accolades, fan support, team chemsitry, and media attention. We had every reason to think he would stay.
Toronto has nothing more than inertia going for them. And Bosh may still stay. Possible, and be a good thing for the NBA's Canadien experiment. But he has every other reason to go. More exposure, more shot at a title, more fans. They may play the brinkmanship game, but they aren't holding any face cards.
Last edited:
beb0p
Starter
You think that because you're a Kings fan. So of course the Kings were up and up and Toronto? Ewww.
But no, it was not a given that Webber would stay. The fans were optimistic of course but Webber expressed his annoyance at the city of Sacramento and some of the Maloof's antics. Or have we already forgotten about that?
And just to be clear, I am not predicting whether Bosh stays or goes. I don't care. All I know is it take a lot more than what we're seeing to make Toronto trade Bosh. And if they trade Bosh there will be a bidding war. And the pieces Toronto wants in return is not a one dimensional SG that is paid $10 millions a season.
.
beb0p
Starter
All true but irrelevant. The only relevant thing here is whether the Raptors see keeping Bosh as hopeless. And so far, Bosh has send enough signals to give Toronto hope.
.
Similar threads
- ClutchPoints | Sacramento Kings News
- Kings News Links
[Rumor]
Trade rumor: Spurs reportedly 'positioning' for Kings' De'Aaron Fox; Says he's a Manu Ginobili fan
- kens5.com
- Personnel moves
- ClutchPoints | San Antonio Spurs News
- Kings News Links
- Locked
- Poll
