Kevin Martin Sweepstakes

[upinsmoke]

My thoughts are waiting to see if K-Mart and Evans can play together until the deadline. If they can't then consider the T-mac deal and have some serious cap space this summer possibly bringing in two FA's.

24,445,193 in total would come off the books this coming summer. we would still need to fill in the blanks and have a 12 man roster but you get the picture.

 

[hammystyle]

No. You brought up the Richmond for Webber trade to justify the validity of the KMart for Bosh trade. I was merely pointing out that using a very one-sided highway robbery of a trade that happened ten years ago certainly doesn't lead credence to the Kmart for Bosh trade.
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Are you kidding me? Here's you: "You're giving up a multiple All-Star and possibly future HOFer, who'd you get in return? Remember, this is like some team asking you to give away Chris Webber in his prime."...sorry but that is YOU bringing it up as a reason that Bosh won't be given away. And my reply was just that you're using a bad example since Webber was in fact given away in his prime.

I certainly did not say Bosh won't be traded. I said Toronto is not going on a fire sale of Bosh. I think you need to understand the difference to have a legitimate debate here.

No one is stopping you from talking about it. But also don't expect everyone to nod in agreement with everything you say.
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I'm just holding you accountable to your own words. I've been trying to debate you, but you're not really engaging my arguments. I've said over and over that we don't just have Martin and JT or Hawes. We've got Omri, Greene, KT's contract and a top-8 pick too. We obviously wouldn't give all of that away, but we do have the pieces to "bowl them over".

Additionally, you're sticking with, "Bosh hasn't said that he wants to be traded, and Toronto has said they're not trading him." as the reason they would need to be bowled over. Maybe that's true on the surface level, but its pretty shallow in meaning. The Raptors should say that to maintain leverage, and with free agency looming there's no real reason for Bosh to demand a trade now. I think you're over-estimating their leverage.

 

[kpm308]

I think Roy Hibbert is a guy we should really be looking at. He is the lane clogger we need on the defensive end and has been able to score in the post well lately. Averaging almost 2 blocks a game in 24 minutes and has had several 5 block or more games so far this season.

Sac outgoing/Indy incoming

Kevin Martin
Hilton Armstrong
Sergio Rodriguez

Indy outgoing/Sac incoming

Roy Hibbert
TJ Ford
Dahnte Jones


Martin is a good fit in O'Brien's offense, spread the floor and look to bomb away from 3. Hilton can help cover the minutes they lose at C, with Foster and Murphy both able to spend time there. Indy is looking for a long term answer at PG, as of now their rotation is Earl Watson and rookie AJ Price. Ford is rotting away on the bench because he can't shoot the 3 and Indy hasn't found any luck trying to move him and his contract. Sergio would fit perfectly in their system, and is better than any of the PGs they have now.

With this trade the Kings get a lot better defensively. Hibbert is the lane clogging big man we have been looking for, and while I wouldn't look at him as a future all star or anything, he can be a Big Z type player for his career. Big and strong enough to defend the big men that are just too overpowering for Hawes and Thompson, very good shotblocker, and should be an adequate scorer, able to post up at times, passes well for a 7-2 guy, and can hit the midrange jumper.

Dahnte Jones is on a long, cheap contract, and while he is starting to get up there in age, there should always be a role for him on this team as a perimeter defender/stopper off the bench.

TJ Ford, while overpaid for what his role would be with this team, would make a very nice change of pace off the bench with his quickness, not only on offense, but we need a guy who can stay with the small, super quick PG's who are just too fast for Evans and Beno, the Earl Boykins, Iverson, JJ Barea types who have had there way with this team so far.

Ideally I'd try and put Brandon Rush in place of Dahnte Jones, but I seriously doubt Indy would go for it. Teams like to hold on to 7'2" young guys who are producing, but this trade would get them out of two contracts that aren't working out for them, and bringing in Martin is just too much value for them to pass up.

 

[sidney]

I think Roy Hibbert is a guy we should really be looking at. He is the lane clogger we need on the defensive end and has been able to score in the post well lately. Averaging almost 2 blocks a game in 24 minutes and has had several 5 block or more games so far this season.

Sac outgoing/Indy incoming

Kevin Martin
Hilton Armstrong
Sergio Rodriguez

Indy outgoing/Sac incoming

Roy Hibbert
TJ Ford
Dahnte Jones


Martin is a good fit in O'Brien's offense, spread the floor and look to bomb away from 3. Hilton can help cover the minutes they lose at C, with Foster and Murphy both able to spend time there. Indy is looking for a long term answer at PG, as of now their rotation is Earl Watson and rookie AJ Price. Ford is rotting away on the bench because he can't shoot the 3 and Indy hasn't found any luck trying to move him and his contract. Sergio would fit perfectly in their system, and is better than any of the PGs they have now.

With this trade the Kings get a lot better defensively. Hibbert is the lane clogging big man we have been looking for, and while I wouldn't look at him as a future all star or anything, he can be a Big Z type player for his career. Big and strong enough to defend the big men that are just too overpowering for Hawes and Thompson, very good shotblocker, and should be an adequate scorer, able to post up at times, passes well for a 7-2 guy, and can hit the midrange jumper.

Dahnte Jones is on a long, cheap contract, and while he is starting to get up there in age, there should always be a role for him on this team as a perimeter defender/stopper off the bench.

TJ Ford, while overpaid for what his role would be with this team, would make a very nice change of pace off the bench with his quickness, not only on offense, but we need a guy who can stay with the small, super quick PG's who are just too fast for Evans and Beno, the Earl Boykins, Iverson, JJ Barea types who have had there way with this team so far.

Ideally I'd try and put Brandon Rush in place of Dahnte Jones, but I seriously doubt Indy would go for it. Teams like to hold on to 7'2" young guys who are producing, but this trade would get them out of two contracts that aren't working out for them, and bringing in Martin is just too much value for them to pass up.

This is actually not a bad idea. Basically we give up Martin and swallow two poison pills for Indiana (Jones and Ford) in order to get our young big. The thing I like about Hibbert is that he can score too in addition to being a solid defender and shot blocker. I'm quite sure Indiana likes that as well. They may see him as a huge part of their future and are not willing to give up on him even for this package.

 

[beb0p]

Are you kidding me? Here's you: "You're giving up a multiple All-Star and possibly future HOFer, who'd you get in return? Remember, this is like some team asking you to give away Chris Webber in his prime."...sorry but that is YOU bringing it up as a reason that Bosh won't be given away. And my reply was just that you're using a bad example since Webber was in fact given away in his prime.

Yes, I know - you think because Webber was given away then the same could possibly happen to Bosh. And I'm here to say dream on! I've been repeating this point and this is the last time I say it.

I'm just holding you accountable to your own words. I've been trying to debate you, but you're not really engaging my arguments. I've said over and over that we don't just have Martin and JT or Hawes. We've got Omri, Greene, KT's contract and a top-8 pick too. We obviously wouldn't give all of that away, but we do have the pieces to "bowl them over".

Additionally, you're sticking with, "Bosh hasn't said that he wants to be traded, and Toronto has said they're not trading him." as the reason they would need to be bowled over. Maybe that's true on the surface level, but its pretty shallow in meaning. The Raptors should say that to maintain leverage, and with free agency looming there's no real reason for Bosh to demand a trade now. I think you're over-estimating their leverage.

There is nothing to debate here. Either you believe in the Bosh-is-coming dream or you don't. It's that simple. I'll be a very happy fan if Bosh comes here to pair w/Evans but I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, the dream may live but I prefer to operate in reality.

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[hammystyle]

Yes, I know - you think because Webber was given away then the same could possibly happen to Bosh. And I'm here to say dream on! I've been repeating this point and this is the last time I say it.
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You have a bad way of twisting words. I never said that once. You were the one who brought up Webber and I said it was a bad example to bring up.

There is nothing to debate here. Either you believe in the Bosh-is-coming dream or you don't. It's that simple. I'll be a very happy fan if Bosh comes here to pair w/Evans but I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, the dream may live but I prefer to operate in reality.

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No, that's not it. That's never even been close to my point, and either your reading comprehension is poor or your deliberately ignoring the basis of each post to suit your own argument. I suspect its the latter. The debate to me is whether or not Toronto is motivated to trade Bosh, and is it possible the Kings have the pieces to do it. I say conclusively, yes they do depending on what other offers Toronto could get. Now the question is how many more of our assets would need to be included with Martin and/or JT...and at that point, is it worth it to the Kings considering the risks in potentially trading for an impending free agent.

Maybe there's only a 10% chance he's traded before the deadline, but considering the number of threads centered around players like Dalembert, Hibbert, Brendan Haywood, Andray Blatche, Manu, Boozer, T-Mac's contract etc...Even a 5% possibility that we could engage in trade talks for a top 10 player who's 25 and fills a need is pretty darn interesting to me.

If you read that again and see it as me saying we can and will trade for Bosh, don't reply, you just don't get it.

 

[bajaden]

Yes, I know - you think because Webber was given away then the same could possibly happen to Bosh. And I'm here to say dream on! I've been repeating this point and this is the last time I say it.





There is nothing to debate here. Either you believe in the Bosh-is-coming dream or you don't. It's that simple. I'll be a very happy fan if Bosh comes here to pair w/Evans but I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, the dream may live but I prefer to operate in reality.

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Sadly I fall in with the group that doesn't think Bosh will be a King anytime soon. I do think he's leaving Toronto, and I do think they'll make a trade either before the deadline, if they can find a team the believes they can resign him, and also has something Toronto wants. If not, they'll probably do a sign an trade during the offseason. And Bosh will probably be willing out of loyality to the team. Problem is, Bosh has a say over which team he goes to, and that limits what they can get in return.

Thats why I think the Laker deal, if legit, is a good one for them. I'm not a big Bynum fan. I think he's a little overrated, and I would certainly choose Bosh over him. But at least they would be getting something they need out of the deal.

I think Toronto is in a tough spot. I think they know there going to have to make a deal with someone. Could we make them a deal they might jump at? Sure! But with the likelyhood that Bosh would walk at the end of the year, why would we risk it? Were in no position right now to take unnecessary chances.

 

[beb0p]

You have a bad way of twisting words. I never said that once. You were the one who brought up Webber and I said it was a bad example to bring up.

Yes you said it, more than once. Your entire point is that Bosh can possibly be traded ("Maybe there's only a 10% chance he's traded before the deadline" - your words below). Bosh possibly be traded for pieces that we are willing to trade = getting way less than full value for Raptors, essentially a bad trade for the Raptors similar to the Webber for Richmond trade (which is my point). So the chance of Bosh being traded to us for pieces we're willing to give up is slim. Do you get it now?

No, that's not it. That's never even been close to my point, and either your reading comprehension is poor or your deliberately ignoring the basis of each post to suit your own argument. I suspect its the latter. The debate to me is whether or not Toronto is motivated to trade Bosh, and is it possible the Kings have the pieces to do it. I say conclusively, yes they do depending on what other offers Toronto could get. Now the question is how many more of our assets would need to be included with Martin and/or JT...and at that point, is it worth it to the Kings considering the risks in potentially trading for an impending free agent.

Maybe there's only a 10% chance he's traded before the deadline, but considering the number of threads centered around players like Dalembert, Hibbert, Brendan Haywood, Andray Blatche, Manu, Boozer, T-Mac's contract etc...Even a 5% possibility that we could engage in trade talks for a top 10 player who's 25 and fills a need is pretty darn interesting to me.

If you read that again and see it as me saying we can and will trade for Bosh, don't reply, you just don't get it.

I italicized possibly in my reply above so it can be clear to you that I never accused you of making a 100% absolute statement.

But something that has a 5%-10% chance of happening is just that to me - a dream, especially when that 5-10% chance is completely outside of the Kings' control. I have stated in earlier posts why Raptors don't want KMart and too much time has already been spend on a scenario that has little chance of happening.

What I'm curious to know is what options are there for a KMart trade besides the pie-the-sky dream of landing Bosh or Al Jefferson.

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[hammystyle]

I think Toronto is in a tough spot. I think they know there going to have to make a deal with someone. Could we make them a deal they might jump at? Sure! But with the likelyhood that Bosh would walk at the end of the year, why would we risk it? Were in no position right now to take unnecessary chances.

That's what makes it interesting to talk about. I think if he was traded to the Kings there'd be a lot of incentive to stay. He'd get the most money, still be the alpha-dog, and be on a team with the nucleus to win a championship. I haven't gotten the impression that Bosh is focused on a major market the way Wade or Lebron seem to be, so the main worry is the "secret pact" they'd want to play together.

Here's a proposal:
Kings trade: Martin/JT/(Maybe Lotto-protected) Our #1/KT's contract
Toronto trades: Bosh/Reggie Evans/Marcus Banks. Maybe we take on Calderon's contract instead.

That gives them cap space and at least three young players. If they're not interested in Martin's contract they can easily flip it for further cap space and at least a lower first round pick. Either way they're a lot further out of the hole than they are if Bosh leaves.

Kings have:
PG: Tyreke/Beno/Banks
SG: Cisco/Greene/Udoka or whomever
SF: Greene/Casspi/Noc
PF: Bosh/Brockman/Evans
C: Hawes/Brockman/???

That's a lineup that might make a 25 year old PF stay since we can pay him the most money. There'd be cap space to go after Marc Gasol or Kendrick Perkins in 2011 (unless Hawes really gets it going). And if you add a legit C to the above, that's a championship lineup. Shooting, size, flexiblity, defense, and two "bail you out when all else fails" superstars.

 

[beb0p]

Sadly I fall in with the group that doesn't think Bosh will be a King anytime soon. I do think he's leaving Toronto, and I do think they'll make a trade either before the deadline, if they can find a team the believes they can resign him, and also has something Toronto wants. If not, they'll probably do a sign an trade during the offseason. And Bosh will probably be willing out of loyality to the team. Problem is, Bosh has a say over which team he goes to, and that limits what they can get in return.

Thats why I think the Laker deal, if legit, is a good one for them. I'm not a big Bynum fan. I think he's a little overrated, and I would certainly choose Bosh over him. But at least they would be getting something they need out of the deal.

I think Toronto is in a tough spot. I think they know there going to have to make a deal with someone. Could we make them a deal they might jump at? Sure! But with the likelyhood that Bosh would walk at the end of the year, why would we risk it? Were in no position right now to take unnecessary chances.

I'm in agreement with you on most of your points. Bynum is not perfect but he is young, good, a 7footer, and fills a need.

At this point, my speculation is that even Bosh doesn't know what he's going to do. So how can Toronto decides that Bosh is going to walk away when the big man hasn't make up his mind yet? I wouldn't be surprised if the Raptors do their due dilligence on Bosh but for them to make a trade, the deal is to be so good that it completely knocks their socks off.

 

[hammystyle]

Yes you said it, more than once. Your entire point is that Bosh can possibly be traded ("Maybe there's only a 10% chance he's traded before the deadline" - your words below). Bosh possibly be traded for pieces that we are willing to trade = getting way less than full value for Raptors, essentially a bad trade for the Raptors similar to the Webber for Richmond trade (which is my point). So the chance of Bosh being traded to us for pieces we're willing to give up is slim. Do you get it now?

I italicized possibly in my reply above so it can be clear to you that I never accused you of making a 100% absolute statement.

But something that has a 5%-10% chance of happening is just that to me - a dream, especially when that 5-10% chance is completely outside of the Kings' control. I have stated in earlier posts why Raptors don't want KMart and too much time has already been spend on a scenario that has little chance of happening.

What I'm curious to know is what options are there for a KMart trade besides the pie-the-sky dream of landing Bosh or Al Jefferson.

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Well almost every single Personnel Moves thread is centered around a topic that's 5-10% likely at best. So I don't see the problem in talking about it. Its pretty tough to gauge the likelihood that Bosh is actually traded by the deadline, 10% could be low or high...but I think its at least 50-50 that they explore deals for him. And that's just part of the fun of being a fan.

I like other Martin trade options too. I'm a big fan of the Kirilenko and he Knick #1 deal. The Dalembert-Iggy deal is interesting to me, but I'm not sure how plausible that is either. A Martin/Noc for pure cap space and a #1 deal is is even somewhat interesting. Because you're really not trading it for nothing, you're trading it for the person you sign with that money.

 

[itzcoatl]

I haven't seen much of Hibbert this year, but I like the Martin-Hibbert trade proposed earlier. The idea of adding a 7'2", 278 pound, center is definitely intriguing. Looking at Hibbert's stats, he doesn't appear to be a very good rebounder, despite his size...am I way off base? I'd hope we could get a little more talent-wise for Kev, but I think I would pull the trigger on that trade.

 

[SacTownGrantFan]

I agree that Hibbert would be an exciting aquisition.

On a related note, maybe it's time to consider trading for a power forward instead.

 

[BMiller52]

I agree that Hibbert would be an exciting aquisition.

On a related note, maybe it's time to consider trading for a power forward instead.

I agree.

 

[beb0p]

Here is another news for those who are still dreaming of Bosh.

The more people I speak to throughout the NBA, the more it sounds like Toronto won't trade Bosh by the Feb. 18 deadline — a move that could shake up the Western Conference race, if Bosh headed west. The fact is, the Raptors are playing better basketball lately and could nab the conference's fifth spot in the playoffs. Deal Bosh during the season and general manager Bryan Colangelo would always be known as the guy who traded away a possible Hall of Famer. But if Bosh leaves in the summer as a
free agent, Bosh is the one who looks like he turned his back on a franchise (and, though not completely fair, a nation).

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_14256350?source=rss#ixzz0dYe7Jg6r
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