Kevin Martin.... leading the league in True Shooting Percentage

[OHSacFan]

"Coach", you were blind as a bat to his merits while he was ON the Kings and spent the better part of our multiple title runs mystified as to how it was happening.

As an aside, true shooting percentage is a decent semi-abstract stat. It was also the stat in which Peja was a superstar. Likely Steve Kerr too. Meanwhile a guy like Duncan or Shaq in his prime who does not shoot threes and is shaky at the line suffers.

It says what it says and you'd rather be high than low. But anytime you start getting made up stats that don't track well with the league's best players or even the biggest minute guys you have to put a "?" over the relevance of the stat. Its basically just a fancy way of saying "good shooter".

The relevance is this. He has been playing big minutes since Wells went down with his injury. And, even before when he entered a game the shots he took were high percentage. Face it, he plays ball the way it has not been played in a long time. Unselfish, with energy, and with the mindset he is not going to force a bad shot unless there is no other option. He learned a long time ago there is no "I" in team and he has never forgot it like so many others in the league have. If you are looking for flashy and someone that shoots the ball 40 times a night, keep on looking cause you will never see #23 do it unless he is on fire and told to do so. No matter what you say he is solid always has been and always will be. And that is the very thing that will make him great during the course of his career. YES, I said, GREAT. Make no mistake about his ablity. Kevin, with some more time in the league will light teams up, and will do it in such a manner that opposing teams will not even realize he just dropped 35 on them. If I had the choice I would take a solid boring player that gave me 20 to 25 a night shooting 60% from the floor before I would a player that gave me 30, but, had to shoot the ball 196 times in 4 quarters to get those 30 points. GOOD JOB NEPHEW, STAY SOLID!!!!!!!

 

[thesanityannex]

uld a player that gave me 30, but, had to shoot the ball 196 times in 4 quarters to get those 30 points.

That has to be a record on attempts.
















Congrats Martin. Keep up the good work. We've all enjoyed your new found confidence.

 

[BMiller52]

The relevance is this. He has been playing big minutes since Wells went down with his injury. And, even before when he entered a game the shots he took were high percentage. Face it, he plays ball the way it has not been played in a long time. Unselfish, with energy, and with the mindset he is not going to force a bad shot unless there is no other option. He learned a long time ago there is no "I" in team and he has never forgot it like so many others in the league have. If you are looking for flashy and someone that shoots the ball 40 times a night, keep on looking cause you will never see #23 do it unless he is on fire and told to do so. No matter what you say he is solid always has been and always will be. And that is the very thing that will make him great during the course of his career. YES, I said, GREAT. Make no mistake about his ablity. Kevin, with some more time in the league will light teams up, and will do it in such a manner that opposing teams will not even realize he just dropped 35 on them. If I had the choice I would take a solid boring player that gave me 20 to 25 a night shooting 60% from the floor before I would a player that gave me 30, but, had to shoot the ball 196 times in 4 quarters to get those 30 points. GOOD JOB NEPHEW, STAY SOLID!!!!!!!

Like KobI Bryant?

 

[Entity]

nephew or not K-Mart if for real and is here to stay. and guess what he has only started 20 games. He is going to learn more and get better and grow mentaly and phisicaly as a player for 2 more years at least then he is going to be in his prime for about 5 or 6 years. You can already see the that he is learning from Artest defensivly him and Garcia both are willing to learn and want to learn as much as they can. This is going to be fun kingsfans.

 

[VF21]

nephew or not K-Mart if for real and is here to stay. and guess what he has only started 20 games. He is going to learn more and get better and grow mentaly and phisicaly as a player for 2 more years at least then he is going to be in his prime for about 5 or 6 years. You can already see the that he is learning from Artest defensivly him and Garcia both are willing to learn and want to learn as much as they can. This is going to be fun kingsfans.

Exactly!

When is the last time we had TWO young players with so much potential? If Bonzi stays, Kevin and Cisco can come off the bench like Butch and Sundance... They both bring a lot to this team that I really didn't realize we had been missing.

GO KINGS!!

 

[Entity]

i can see it with no problem. Artest Defensive Player of the year again. Martin leading the league in ft% top 10 in 3pt% and top 20 in ppg. and Francisco getting 6th man award. we have a new core and 2 of the old core are still here how sweet is that

 

[Bricklayer]

The relevance is this. He has been playing big minutes since Wells went down with his injury. And, even before when he entered a game the shots he took were high percentage. Face it, he plays ball the way it has not been played in a long time. Unselfish, with energy, and with the mindset he is not going to force a bad shot unless there is no other option. He learned a long time ago there is no "I" in team and he has never forgot it like so many others in the league have. If you are looking for flashy and someone that shoots the ball 40 times a night, keep on looking cause you will never see #23 do it unless he is on fire and told to do so. No matter what you say he is solid always has been and always will be. And that is the very thing that will make him great during the course of his career. YES, I said, GREAT. Make no mistake about his ablity. Kevin, with some more time in the league will light teams up, and will do it in such a manner that opposing teams will not even realize he just dropped 35 on them. If I had the choice I would take a solid boring player that gave me 20 to 25 a night shooting 60% from the floor before I would a player that gave me 30, but, had to shoot the ball 196 times in 4 quarters to get those 30 points. GOOD JOB NEPHEW, STAY SOLID!!!!!!!

I'm not sure what the nephew stuff accomplishes as far as discussion of Kevin's game -- Jason Hart's relatives all think he is the shiznit too. And I know from other threads that Kevin doesn't stop by here himself. Be proud of him, but dropping it at the end of a post feels a bit like namedropping, and since I believe I have watched every minute of NBA basketball Kevin Martin has ever played, its not really relevant when we are talking about the NBA. I will defer to f&f on his favorite bedtime stories, first girlfriend, crazy high school dunks, any embarrassing baby pictures they want to post etc. Not on Kevin's NBA game.

A couple of notes:

Kevin Martin is obviously not going to shoot 60%. Ever. NotReven worth discussing. But there is the interesting possibility he could shoot 50% and further the Rip Hamilton comparisons. Much depends on how this develops. He's unveiled a variety of new shots in the last 6 weeks, and I'll qualify by saying new at the NBA level if for some reason he was sandbagging his career the first 1+ years. And those new shots all look smooth. A dramatic change for a guy who's only two modes a year ago were force it all the way to the hoop or miss a jumper he was clearly uncomfortable with. Furthermore, if he is left alone with his feet set on the perimeter, he hits a very high percentage of his threes.

Now however, what happens when a) we adjust, he's our starter, or at least a major player, and he's earned his stripes. Should mean more shots for Kevin. More points for Kevin. But like all volume shooters, the % probably dips a bit as the high % shots are used up and lower percentage stuff is taken. And b) when teams start gameplanning for him as a major threat? Think we've already seen a bit of that -- he's had a harder time getting the open looks he needs on the perimeter and people seem to be following him tighter out there -- think word has spread. With more attention, %s again may drop. Best sign that they may hold is that new midrange floater. Even against good defense that's tough to stop because of his elevation. In any case, I would be very surprised to see him ever return to a poor shooting %, but there is still every chance its going to slip somewhat as he becomes a more significant player. Just a question of how far.

In any case, the general point of my first post was that True Shooting % is a decent stat, but its never been one that has matched up terribly well with the impact players in the league. It is what it is and it statistically encapsulates the incredible efficiency that Kevin has displayed in the last month. But as far as predicting anything more...no, not really. It is exactly what it pretends to be -- a measure of effiiciency. And Kevin has been oh so efficient in the last month. But its never said much more. And that objection to the unwarranted extension of that stat is not in any way an attack on Kevin. Saying congrats to Kevin on leading the best basketball league in the world in a statistic is entirely warranted. Taking said stat and trying to extend it as evidence of future stardom or whatever....that's overreaching, and that's what the objection was to.

 

[OHSacFan]

I'm not sure what the nephew stuff accomplishes as far as discussion of Kevin's game -- Jason Hart's relatives all think he is the shiznit too. And I know from other threads that Kevin doesn't stop by here himself. Be proud of him, but dropping it at the end of a post feels a bit like namedropping, and since I believe I have watched every minute of NBA basketball Kevin Martin has ever played, its not really relevant when we are talking about the NBA. I will defer to f&f on his favorite bedtime stories, first girlfriend, crazy high school dunks, any embarrassing baby pictures they want to post etc. Not on Kevin's NBA game.

A couple of notes:

Kevin Martin is obviously not going to shoot 60%. Ever. NotReven worth discussing. But there is the interesting possibility he could shoot 50% and further the Rip Hamilton comparisons. Much depends on how this develops. He's unveiled a variety of new shots in the last 6 weeks, and I'll qualify by saying new at the NBA level if for some reason he was sandbagging his career the first 1+ years. And those new shots all look smooth. A dramatic change for a guy who's only two modes a year ago were force it all the way to the hoop or miss a jumper he was clearly uncomfortable with. Furthermore, if he is left alone with his feet set on the perimeter, he hits a very high percentage of his threes.

Now however, what happens when a) we adjust, he's our starter, or at least a major player, and he's earned his stripes. Should mean more shots for Kevin. More points for Kevin. But like all volume shooters, the % probably dips a bit as the high % shots are used up and lower percentage stuff is taken. And b) when teams start gameplanning for him as a major threat? Think we've already seen a bit of that -- he's had a harder time getting the open looks he needs on the perimeter and people seem to be following him tighter out there -- think word has spread. With more attention, %s again may drop. Best sign that they may hold is that new midrange floater. Even against good defense that's tough to stop because of his elevation. In any case, I would be very surprised to see him ever return to a poor shooting %, but there is still every chance its going to slip somewhat as he becomes a more significant player. Just a question of how far.

In any case, the general point of my first post was that True Shooting % is a decent stat, but its never been one that has matched up terribly well with the impact players in the league. It is what it is and it statistically encapsulates the incredible efficiency that Kevin has displayed in the last month. But as far as predicting anything more...no, not really. It is exactly what it pretends to be -- a measure of effiiciency. And Kevin has been oh so efficient in the last month. But its never said much more. And that objection to the unwarranted extension of that stat is not in any way an attack on Kevin. Saying congrats to Kevin on leading the best basketball league in the world in a statistic is entirely warranted. Taking said stat and trying to extend it as evidence of future stardom or whatever....that's overreaching, and that's what the objection was to.

Whatever on the namedropping, and as for the rest of it I made my comments and you just made yours. I do not need a stat to tell me how great he is going to be because I aready know how great he is. I guess we will just let him prove it through his play on the floor.

 

[Kingsgurl]

I believe the nephew comment came because he has seen this before. These types of comments have followed Kevin throughout his career. The NBA isn't the first stop for the family along that trip, although it is for us.
Of course he isn't going to shoot 60% over his career, no one EVER said he was and that's just a ridiculous comment. He wasn't 'sandbagging' his first year, but nor did he 'just discover 6 weeks ago' a pull up jumper.
The family DOES have one advantage we don't have. They SAW him play in person in college and high school (not just girlfriends and parties and whatever else you referred to) I've seen tape, close but not the same. They SAW the way he upped his game against big schools and stiffer competition, they saw the way he had his highest scoring games on the road, against double and triple teams since he was the only threat on his team. They saw the way he worked and the way he LIVED to make his game better.
As I said since before we drafted this kid. Watch him, he is something special. You may not believe it, even now, but he is.

 

[1kingzfan]

In any case, the general point of my first post was that True Shooting % is a decent stat, but its never been one that has matched up terribly well with the impact players in the league.

Ummmm.....nope!

Here's a link to the complete TSP standings, originally posted by Kajun.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/jh_ALL_TSP.htm

Currently, 11 of the guys that played in today's NBA All Star Game are in the top 30 in the league in TSP. That's about half of ALL All Stars at ALL positions.

Some of them include Nash, Billups, Wade, Pierce, Garnett, Nowitzki, and Allen. Some of the real lightweights in our league, to be sure.

But anytime you start getting made up stats that don't track well with the league's best players or even the biggest minute guys you have to put a "?" over the relevance of the stat.

Looks like it tracks pretty well with the best players in the game to me. Looks like it warrants more than a "?" in relevance to me.

TSP encompasses the most PRODUCTIVE but not necessarily the most PROLIFIC scorers in the NBA.

And THAT is relevant.

 

[Entity]

So Kevin gets attention from writers at espn.com at 3 or 4 ppl on here all they can do is say that stat means nothing. Well why can't we ALL get behind the players and just say hey cool Kev is leading in that stat great job. Instead its 'blah blah blah that stat means nothing. blah blah blah put ppl on him and the % will go down." Do these negative responses come from some void in your own lives that you should be playing in the NBA so you find a way to make yourself feel suprior to the players in question by degrading their accomplishments.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ummmm.....nope!

Here's a link to the complete TSP standings, originally posted by Kajun.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/jh_ALL_TSP.htm

Currently, 11 of the guys that played in today's NBA All Star Game are in the top 30 in the league in TSP. That's about half of ALL All Stars at ALL positions.

Some of them include Nash, Billups, Wade, Pierce, Garnett, Nowitzki, and Allen. Some of the real lightweights in our league, to be sure.

Looks like it tracks pretty well with the best players in the game to me. Looks like it warrants more than a "?" in relevance to me.

TSP encompasses the most PRODUCTIVE but not necessarily the most PROLIFIC scorers in the NBA.

And THAT is relevant.

You know, I hate when theoretically intelligent people play stupid in order to try to manipulate a point.

11 of the Top 30 are in the All-Star game. That's good. So are these 19:

Kevin Martin
Josh Childress
Andre Igoudala
Richard Jefferson
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Rashard Lewis
Wally Szczerbiak
Joey Graham
Mike Miller
Alonzo Mourning
James Posey
Sarunas Jasikevicius
Delonte West
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Joel Pryzbilla
Tyson Chandler
Brian Cook
Shane Battier
Jarron Collins

Meanwhile Kobe Bryant is at #61, Kirlenko is at #87, Jason Richardson is at #89, A.I. is at #94, Tim Duncan is at #112, Jermaine O'Neal #118 etc.

In other words, it doesn't track particularly well wiht the top players. Never has, before or after Kevin arrived at the top of the list.

It says what it says -- Kevin has been the most efficient scorer, or close to it, in the NBA this season. That's good stuff. But a lot of his fellow efficient scorers aren't really great players, and many fo the really great players aren't among his fellow efficient scorers.

P.S. As an aside, lost back there somewhere is the fact that if Bonzi is moved I'm comfortable with Kevin as a starting off-guard for us going forward, so long as we have a sufficient number of great players around him to keep the pressure off of him. However the overreaching, screeching, and general chestbeating that accompanies it is no more attractive in Kevin's case than it was with Peja, Hedo, Reef or anybody else. Sometimes I think otherwise nice players and nice individuals are done a disservice by their backers.

 

[Kev.in]

I've had Jarron Collins pegged as a future star for several years now!

 

[Kingsgurl]

However the overreaching, screeching, and general chestbeating that accompanies it is no more attractive in Kevin's case than it was with Peja, Hedo, Reef or anybody else. Sometimes I think otherwise nice players and nice individuals are done a disservice by their backers.

I generally try to avoid screeching and chest-beating, but I SHOULD be able to say I think the kid is doing well or give him props without being made to sound stupid, or like my opinion is somehow 'less than' yours. You are coming across as rather condescending in this matter, IMO.
Being an efficient scorer is much better than being an inefficient one, and this convo is much more fun to have than the 'will he make it' ones we had earlier, don't you think?

 

[1kingzfan]

You know, I hate when theoretically intelligent people play stupid in order to try to manipulate a point.

You know, I hate when a theoretically intelligent moderator IS stupid in trying to manipulate a point.

He doesn't do his homework, he basks in disbelief about something quite simple placed before him, because it makes him wrong, and he can't admit it. Then he twists and turns and scrambles to do anything but admit what EVERYONE on this board can see. Then to top it off, he insults (more than once) a small subset of members here because of their relationship to a particular person and tries to discount their opinions as less than others' here.

That's what I hate.

Sometimes I think otherwise nice players and nice individuals are done a disservice by their backers.

Sometimes I think otherwise nice Internet bulletin boards with nice individuals are done a disservice by how certain moderators behave.

 

[Bricklayer]

You know, I hate when a theoretically intelligent moderator IS stupid in trying to manipulate a point.

He doesn't do his homework, he basks in disbelief about something quite simple placed before him, because it makes him wrong, and he can't admit it. Then he twists and turns and scrambles to do anything but admit what EVERYONE on this board can see. Then to top it off, he insults (more than once) a small subset of members here because of their relationship to a particular person and tries to discount their opinions as less than others' here.

That's what I hate.



Sometimes I think otherwise nice Internet bulletin boards with nice individuals are done a disservice by how certain moderators behave.

Well I'm happy to oblige -- its high time you were on the other side of the arrogance and condescension equation 1kingzfan.

And a post like the above is normally exactly what I expect when somebody lacks the grace to concede a point. Change the subject. Cry foul and complain.

The point stands. Your feelings toward me are irrelevant.

 

[1kingzfan]

Arrogance? Condescension? Lacking grace to concede a point?

Sir, you are the KING of ALL of those things here, in addition to singling out and insulting select members here without remorse or apology, and I am far and away not the only member that feels that way.

I guess that’s what that little gold crown on the head of your avatar signifies.

Enjoy your dubious rule…

 

[Entity]

ANYway Kevin is pretty good on defense, he has developed a good open look jumper and is hitting the runner with consistency. Its nice to have him on the team no matter if some people believe its just a fluke or whatever they believe he is a KING and we love him so lets focus our negativity on other teams and not ours it suits the board much better.

 

[Bricklayer]

Arrogance? Condescension? Lacking grace to concede a point?

Sir, you are the KING of ALL of those things here,

Glad that somebody noticed. Which of course raises the interesting question as to why people insist on testing me.

And now that I have let you spew enough on the board, I think its time that any further such displays be handled via PM.

Somewhere back there there were two threads: 1) a congratulations thread for Kevin and 2) a discussion of the relative importance of a combo stat like TSP.

 

[Entity]

I am willing to put money on the fact that Kevin Martin is the best player making 800k a year or less.

 

[VF21]

I, for one, am very happy to see Kevin fulfilling the potential Petrie must have seen to draft him in the first place. While the TSP isn't generally acknowledged or used as one of the benchmarks for comparing players, it's good to see a King on the top of any positive statistic.

 

[nbrans]

Yeah, I'm with VF21. It's just amazing to see Kevin doing so well, particularly with the way he started the season. He'll have to take his game to the next level and show that he can score when defenses are focused on him in order to become a star. But given the way this season has gone I just don't know that you can rule anything out when it comes to Kevin Martin. He has some vast potential.

 

[Bricklayer]

I am willing to put money on the fact that Kevin Martin is the best player making 800k a year or less.

I would have to see the list, but I certainly can't think of anyone better at that price (actaully think he's closer to $900k). That would have to be a late first or second round pick form the last couple of years basically.

The best of them would be:

Kevin Martin
Chris Duhon
Trevor Ariza
Anderson Varejao (pre-injury)
David Harrison (maybe -- Indy fans are high on him)
Delonte West (picked two ahead of Kevin so not sure of the salary)
Salim Stoudamire
Luther Head (again not sure of the salary -- picked #24)
Josh Howard

Pachulia and Korver both would have been there too before this offseason.

So I guess there is one guy (Howard). But there's no doubt Kevin is one of the best bargains in the NBA for the next two years.

 

[1kingzfan]

KMart makes $937K and Howard makes less actually at $874K.

Both are bargains.

 

[atxrocker]

KMart makes $937K and Howard makes less actually at $874K.

Both are bargains.

Didn't know Kevin made more money than Josh, thats interesting. I agree that both are bargains at this point. Who do you think has more upside?

 

[Entity]

Bottom line Kevin Martin is the best 2 guard in the NBA. His fg, 3pt, and ft %'s speak for themselves. I'd put him up against any All-Star any day.

 

[1kingzfan]

Oh, I dunno, should we take a look at True Shooting Percentage amongst the NBA?

Hehehehehe

TSP Kevin #1 63.3%, Howard #100 53.4%

 

[VF21]

Bottom line Kevin Martin is the best 2 guard in the NBA. His fg, 3pt, and ft %'s speak for themselves. I'd put him up against any All-Star any day.

Before I personally would put a mantle like "best 2 guard in the NBA" on Kevin, I'd like to see him step his game up on the road. That's going to be where we need him - and the rest of the team - the most.

Bottom line is I'm glad he's playing for us and NOT against us.

GO KINGS!!!

 

[Entity]

maybe i overstated a little. How about the best 2 guard for us. let me explain.. What other 2 guard in the league shooting the way he is now would be satisfied with the number of touches he is getting? What other 2 guard in the league is willing to take advice from anybody and everybody on the team? we all know that at first Kevin was not willing to shoot open 3's but now we really need him to so the floor can be spaced for Artest and guess who is doing exactly what we need. Kevin Martin. i will not accept less than 15-5 over our next 20 games. follow it with me guys as it will be in my sig

 

[Kajun]

In other words, it doesn't track particularly well wiht the top players. Never has, before or after Kevin arrived at the top of the list.

It says what it says -- Kevin has been the most efficient scorer, or close to it, in the NBA this season. That's good stuff. But a lot of his fellow efficient scorers aren't really great players, and many fo the really great players aren't among his fellow efficient scorers.

I agree it doesn't track well with the top players, but again -- the list should be regarded as those players who have been able to make the most of their shooting opportunities, as far as their offensive roles go. Of course nobody can realistically compare Kevin with Kobe; but as a role player, Kevin's been awesome.

What I do think, is that within a certain class of players, the order should still mean something. For instance, you could first take all the top NBA players (filter them by using the PER/40 rating, or whatever stat you deem to be most successful in identifying the top players), and then compare the TSP amongst them.

E.g. Paul Pierce is more efficient than Kobe, who's bettering McGrady right now.

You mentioned earlier on that volume shooters (by definition) will have lower percentage, because of the higher risk shots they are taking. Yes, that is true. The question becomes, how much of those low percentage shots is deemed "necessary" (e.g. "Kobe has to do it all alone anyways") and how much is deemed stupidity (e.g. Antoine Walker a few years ago chucking up three after three, Carmelo in his first year). It is not something this stat, or any stat, can answer. It's something that won't be answered in the near future. Until then, the TSP stands as the best way to gauge offensive efficiency.