Kevin for Devin Harris

[bajaden]

I don't get trading him at all. sure we are doing ok now. But what happens when Beno resorts to the Beno of last year? Yeah the same Beno we all wanted gone and considered the weakest link on the team. Now all of a sudden ppl want Kevin gone and that guy in our starting backcourt instead of Kevin? It don't make sense. Now is good time to trade Beno and get something of value back not Kevin. How much better is Beno than Kevin on defense? really?

Not to mention we haven't seen the Kevin Tyreke backcourt pairing but the first 5 games of Tyreke's career with May and Mason starting with them. Lets not jump on the trade wagon just yet and see what happens. I think we will all be pleased.

I don't think its that people don't like Kevin or that he has no value. At least not truely educated fans. I think its more of a, if its not broke, don't fix it. I also think there's still some residue left over from the time when Webber came back and screwed up the chemistry on the team.

 

[upinsmoke]

Wait a min fellas dont get me wrong K-mart is a baller and a heck of a talent. That being said this summer is one opportunity we cant pass on. Dont bealive that Sacramento wont attract FA's. Money talks and if the franchise has some clear space im positive we can continue to gain traction and turn this B around!

GO KINGS!!!

 

[netseee]

stop talking trade martin pls, whats wrong with him?

 

[Nighthawk1]

Wait a min fellas dont get me wrong K-mart is a baller and a heck of a talent. That being said this summer is one opportunity we cant pass on. Dont bealive that Sacramento wont attract FA's. Money talks and if the franchise has some clear space im positive we can continue to gain traction and turn this B around!

GO KINGS!!!

The problem is, banking on all those FA's actually move teams. Then opening up cap space and no one to use it on - then having to restrain our FO from making another mistake overpaying players which they have been known to do lately (Cisco, Beno). Once we get past there actually being players worthy of signing are they then going to be better then KMart? And once we get past that part, will they actually sign with us when all we hear lately is how they want to play with each other on a team

 

[Entity]

I don't think its that people don't like Kevin or that he has no value. At least not truely educated fans. I think its more of a, if its not broke, don't fix it. I also think there's still some residue left over from the time when Webber came back and screwed up the chemistry on the team.

Big difference is when Webber came back we were like 20 games over .500 with one of the best records in the NBA. We are currently 2 games under and standing pat with the likes of Oklahoma City and its like "OHH NO we don't want to do anything to change that." If we were tops in the Pacific I would feel the same. I am looking to get better not stand pat with Beno our starting 2 gaurd or a SF our starting 2 guard. Kevin can contribute to this current team. We have others that their contribution isn't as great and we could use those as trade pieces not Kevin. Kevin and Tyreke together with Jason, Donte, Omri, Cisco could indeed draw some attention from FA's this summer along with our coach.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't get trading him at all. sure we are doing ok now. But what happens when Beno resorts to the Beno of last year? Yeah the same Beno we all wanted gone and considered the weakest link on the team. Now all of a sudden ppl want Kevin gone and that guy in our starting backcourt instead of Kevin? It don't make sense. Now is good time to trade Beno and get something of value back not Kevin. How much better is Beno than Kevin on defense? really?

Not to mention we haven't seen the Kevin Tyreke backcourt pairing but the first 5 games of Tyreke's career with May and Mason starting with them. Lets not jump on the trade wagon just yet and see what happens. I think we will all be pleased.

I have explained this 1000 times.

Point by point:

1) Over his career Kevin Martin has been the anti of our current Kings. He has been soft. He has been a poor defender. He does not create for others or do anything other than score. He lacks passion and toughness. His style of play on offense involves set plays with many players sacrificing to get him open and hit him for the pass.

2) Kevin Martin is paid $11 million dollars, if he is brought back in anything other than a featured role, you have screwed your cap position for a roleplayer, and as that roleplayer's numbers sink, so does his trade value. If you bring him back in a featured role then you disrupt everything you have had going.

3) Kevin Martin is a 35+ minute player (currently at an insane 42min actually). You can go ahead and try to cheat if you want and say you will only play him 32. That's still 32 minutes gone for the guys who are winning now. Most likely victims are Greene (young) and Sergio (3rd string) who's minutes lmaost exactly add up to what Kevin will get. Scratch them, add Kevin.

4) We are one of the top scoring teams in the league. We do not play defense. The last thing we need added is a socring player who does not play defense.

5) VERY few teams in NBA history, that's NBA history underlined, have been able to make a backcourt of 2 20pt scorers work. They occupy the same spaces and fight ove the ball. Even if they do work too much scoring is coming from the perimeter, not enough inside, and other players don't get involved.

6) Kevin is a pure shooting guard, not a creative player for others. The entire passing/ball movement benefit we have been getting of making up for Reke being a combo guard by putting other combo guards/PGs next to him will be lost, and the rest of the team will necessarily be less involved.

7) Kevin is the ranking veteran on this team. This team has formed up a palatable chemistry centered around a young core that likes each other and has clear leadership. When Kevin gets back that is all threatened. Is he really going to follow a bunch of kids 6-7 years his junior who he is still having carry around backpacks as part of their rookie hazing rituals?

8) Kevin represents by FAR the best trading piece we have on the team, and our best opportunity to acquire the things we really need -- an impact big, and stud defender. He laso represents our best chance to make a trade so big it creates a splash that the invisible fanbase cannot ignore.

9) and yes, it was only 5 games, but our only evidence of how a Kevin/Reke/rest of the team pairing would work found Kevin completely domianting play, his way, Reke unsure of how to get involved, and the team losing as it always has when Kevin was the featured player.

10) a minor point, but one critical to our stature and potential stay in Sacramento -- Kevin's return in particular threatens Tyreke's ascendance, possible ROY campiann, and national prominence. These are individual goals, but goals given our basketball exile that are now important for this team. We NEED that recognition. We NEED accolades to get the fanbase back. And we NEED an indentifiable star to get us back on TV and back on the radar.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And now, to be fair, the argument for keeping Kevin:

1) Kevin is the second best player on this team (and yes, second best). Beno Udrih? Donte Greene (although don't sleep on Donte's talent if he is given time)? And no star can do it alone. Every star needs a wingman to win big. But that's an argument for getting value back for Kevin in a trade, not for necessarily keeping Kevin himself. Its not fantasy basketball. You don't just pile "talent" on that does not fit. But you do try to conserve your talent base. You don't want to lose talent if you don't have to, but you do want to transform it into talent that better fits your current needs.

2) Kevin is a fullsized SG who will allow Reke to beat up on opposing PGs. To which I note that Cisco is also a full sized shooting guard that will allow Reke to beat upo on opponents, but one that fits considerably better at a cheaper price.

 

[Entity]

I understand you. But who do we get back for Kevin. I don't see anybody out there that we can get that isn't a rental. Also do you see GP or the Maloofs actually trading Kevin?

 

[Entity]

I guess i am looking at it like this. I remember Bibby, Christie, Peja. Doug would sometime guard the SF if it was a tough assignment for Peja. I guess I am just seeing the 3 postions as interchangable on defense with Evans, Martin, and Garcia. Let Marting guard the weaker player. In terms of offense. Peja was getting near 20 a game as was Bibby so that worked and I see Martin playing the same type of game. I guess that is why I think it would work. I know we don't exactly have Webber in the middle but in terms of 2 guards averaging 20 I just see the 2 guard scoring or the SF scoring 20 as the same. both are generally perimeter players. Its just a position title much like the argument going on in the other threads about Tyreke.

 

[AriesMar27]

I understand you. But who do we get back for Kevin. I don't see anybody out there that we can get that isn't a rental. Also do you see GP or the Maloofs actually trading Kevin?

you dont get anything for martin... think about it, how many times has a player like martin been traded for a useful player? its usually for cap relief or a young player that wont pan out, look at jason richardson...

 

[captain bill]

2) Kevin Martin is paid $11 million dollars, if he is brought back in anything other than a featured role, you have screwed your cap position for a roleplayer, and as that roleplayer's numbers sink, so does his trade value. If you bring him back in a featured role then you disrupt everything you have had going.

I get everything but this. This argument has never really made any sense to me. Next year we have roughly $40 million in committed salary. Yeah, Kevin's salary is a good 25% of it, but I don't see how that cripples the team's mobility in any way. That's about $30 million under the current median team salary. We don't have any extensions due until 2012. If we want to take on contracts, we can. If we want to extend players, we can. If we want to give Kev 25 minutes per night and pay him an insane sum of money, we can. Have we forgotten the Kenny Thomas saga already?

Granted, that 11 mil might serve us better in a trade that brings back a higher per-dollar value. I think we should shop him for all the reasons you listed. But 11 mil is a GREAT salary for the caliber of player that Martin is. Say what you want about how he doesn't deserve it, but I guarantee there are at least 5 GMs out there who would pay significantly more for him. It happens every summer, like clockwork.

 

[captain bill]

you dont get anything for martin... think about it, how many times has a player like martin been traded for a useful player? its usually for cap relief or a young player that wont pan out, look at jason richardson...

Peja was traded for Artest. While not helpful long-term, he made the team very good and exciting, pushing the Spurs to 7.

Ray Allen was traded for the No. 5 pick in the draft.

AI fetched Andre Miller and two first round picks.


IDK, maybe someone else can come up with more, but volume scorers can definitely net useful players. Please never use MJ trades as examples of good management.

 

[Dreadnought]

Kevin Martin for John Wall this year? heh.

 

[AriesMar27]

Peja was traded for Artest. While not helpful long-term, he made the team very good and exciting, pushing the Spurs to 7.

Ray Allen was traded for the No. 5 pick in the draft.

AI fetched Andre Miller and two first round picks.


IDK, maybe someone else can come up with more, but volume scorers can definitely net useful players. Please never use MJ trades as examples of good management.

wasnt it only 6 games?

i thought about ray allen but the sonics were cleaning house.... but it proves that all you get is cap relief and young players that dont pan out. though green isnt that bad.

 

[Uncia03]

Ever since Bonzi went down with that injury, Kevin has been the player I've most rooted for. He's been the biggest bright spot for this team over the last few years, and though I've wanted to see him improve his defense and ball handling, those limitations don't negate the fact that he's a very good player.

With that said, a defensive big man and a commitment to defense is what is going to get this team over the hump. So if Martin, as a wonderful player, can fetch us what we need to become a better team, then I'm completely for moving him.

When Martin gets back I think he's going to be very cognizant of the identify that's been forming for this team, and I think he's going to do what he can to build momentum towards that identity rather than trying to derail things. After so many years being on a team sliding into obscurity, I think he'd rather work towards the team having success, at least that's the impression I have of him and his character. But we'll see when he does come back.


So do I think that a backcourt of Tyreke and Martin can work?
The short answer is Yes, I think it can work, though I can envision a lot of scenarios which would work better.

Now when Martin gets back, the starting line-up I'd like to see would be:

Tyreke
Kevin
Donte
JT
Spencer

I think that moving Donte over to the 3 spot, and putting Nocioni back on the bench is a great move for our future, and the above starting line-up is a far superior one to the one we've currently got.

So rather than discuss who I want to keep, I want to point out my top players to trade.

Players we have to trade to assist with the future success of this team:

1.) Nocioni
When Martin get's back, I want Donte to remain in the starting line-up. I also feel that Casspi is playing as well, if not better than Nocioni, and his youth, contract size, and intensity is a far more attractive package than Nocioni.
So, Nocioni right now is the player I most want to see traded, so that Donte/Casspi do not lose time once Kevin gets back.
He is also a player who can be a positive asset in a trade, rather than a bad asset we have to dump. So some sort of combination of big man/expirings/youth/picks is what I'd be looking for in a trade.

Players we should trade:

1.) Beno
Before this season started, everyone felt that Beno would be the new KT, a lodestone killing our cap space for years. Now that Beno is playing so well, it's possible that we could actually use him as a positive asset in a trade. Now, it could be that he'll always play like this when deferring to Tyreke, but I don't want to take that chance. So his trade value is high, and I'd love to get out from under his contract.

In addition Sergio's play has been very good. He brings a couple different things compared to Beno, but he'd be just as good a change-of-pace back-up PG to Tyreke. We can renew his contract for less than what we're paying Beno and pick up a 3rd PG on the cheap.

2.) KT & Kevin
Both of these players we should trade if the right deal comes along. That deal would have to involve either a defensive big, a star player, or a top 3 draft pick.
If we don't trade either of them, I'm fine with that, but they are very, very valuable commodities, so if we can get really good value from them, we should pull the trigger.

 

[VF21]

Ever since Bonzi went down with that injury, Kevin has been the player I've most rooted for. He's been the biggest bright spot for this team over the last few years, and though I've wanted to see him improve his defense and ball handling, those limitations don't negate the fact that he's a very good player.

With that said, a defensive big man and a commitment to defense is what is going to get this team over the hump. So if Martin, as a wonderful player, can fetch us what we need to become a better team, then I'm completely for moving him.

When Martin gets back I think he's going to be very cognizant of the identify that's been forming for this team, and I think he's going to do what he can to build momentum towards that identity rather than trying to derail things. After so many years being on a team sliding into obscurity, I think he'd rather work towards the team having success, at least that's the impression I have of him and his character. But we'll see when he does come back.


So do I think that a backcourt of Tyreke and Martin can work?
The short answer is Yes, I think it can work, though I can envision a lot of scenarios which would work better.

Now when Martin gets back, the starting line-up I'd like to see would be:

Tyreke
Kevin
Donte
JT
Spencer

I think that moving Donte over to the 3 spot, and putting Nocioni back on the bench is a great move for our future, and the above starting line-up is a far superior one to the one we've currently got.

So rather than discuss who I want to keep, I want to point out my top players to trade.

Players we have to trade to assist with the future success of this team:

1.) Nocioni
When Martin get's back, I want Donte to remain in the starting line-up. I also feel that Casspi is playing as well, if not better than Nocioni, and his youth, contract size, and intensity is a far more attractive package than Nocioni.
So, Nocioni right now is the player I most want to see traded, so that Donte/Casspi do not lose time once Kevin gets back.
He is also a player who can be a positive asset in a trade, rather than a bad asset we have to dump. So some sort of combination of big man/expirings/youth/picks is what I'd be looking for in a trade.

Players we should trade:

1.) Beno
Before this season started, everyone felt that Beno would be the new KT, a lodestone killing our cap space for years. Now that Beno is playing so well, it's possible that we could actually use him as a positive asset in a trade. Now, it could be that he'll always play like this when deferring to Tyreke, but I don't want to take that chance. So his trade value is high, and I'd love to get out from under his contract.

In addition Sergio's play has been very good. He brings a couple different things compared to Beno, but he'd be just as good a change-of-pace back-up PG to Tyreke. We can renew his contract for less than what we're paying Beno and pick up a 3rd PG on the cheap.

2.) KT & Kevin
Both of these players we should trade if the right deal comes along. That deal would have to involve either a defensive big, a star player, or a top 3 draft pick.
If we don't trade either of them, I'm fine with that, but they are very, very valuable commodities, so if we can get really good value from them, we should pull the trigger.

Very nice assessment. And, as much as I like Martin, I agree with your conclusions about the conditions under which you'd trade him.

 

[The Hammer]

With kevin taking 25 shots a game we will never be winners. He gets injured now all of a sudden we are winners (more than with him) Tyreke is the player to build around kevin is in the way

Punctuation is your friend, not your enemy.

 

[Chupacabra]

I think too many of you are only seeing black and white. "When Kevin Martin plays we are bad. When everyone else plays we are good." Martin teamed up in the backcourt with either Evans or Rodriguez should be a HUGE burden on opposing teams. Evans draws all the defenses attention away from Martin and Rodriguez creates offensive opportunities for him. Martin is more of a shooter than anything else. I think Martin will compliment Evans in the backcourt very well.

Kevin Martin isnt a #1 option and when he comes back he wont have to be. The only reason Martin has been such a chucker the last couple of years is because we didnt have any other options. This new team is COMPLETELY different than the Kings teams Martin was playing on. This team should benefit from Martins presence on the floor.

 

[upinsmoke]

Kevin is a heck of A SCORER but the truth of the matter is opposing teams target us by attacking him. The bright side of Martin is he does not need big min's to be effective. Im just not sure if the Franchise can really make a impact pick up without clearing more cap space in one way or another. If Toronto is sure Bosh is leaving and is open to a S&T then great, if not it would be in our best intrest to make some moves.

 

[Prince_XY]

I think too many of you are only seeing black and white. "When Kevin Martin plays we are bad. When everyone else plays we are good." Martin teamed up in the backcourt with either Evans or Rodriguez should be a HUGE burden on opposing teams. Evans draws all the defenses attention away from Martin and Rodriguez creates offensive opportunities for him. Martin is more of a shooter than anything else. I think Martin will compliment Evans in the backcourt very well.

Kevin Martin isnt a #1 option and when he comes back he wont have to be. The only reason Martin has been such a chucker the last couple of years is because we didnt have any other options. This new team is COMPLETELY different than the Kings teams Martin was playing on. This team should benefit from Martins presence on the floor.

I agree with you. But still, you are only taking into consideration the offensive side of the game. Defensively, we just have to hope that the other four guys playing with Martin become super duper in defense to make up for whatever deficiency in defense Martin will bring.

It takes both good defensive and offensive game to win games.

 

[Kingster]

I agree with you. But still, you are only taking into consideration the offensive side of the game. Defensively, we just have to hope that the other four guys playing with Martin become super duper in defense to make up for whatever deficiency in defense Martin will bring.

It takes both good defensive and offensive game to win games.

We have Greene and Beno getting a lot of minutes at the two. How much worse is Kevin's defense than those two?

 

[Bricklayer]

We have Greene and Beno getting a lot of minutes at the two. How much worse is Kevin's defense than those two?

This Greene as a bad defender thing makes me wonder waht you have been watching. Tad out of positon of course, bu the kid has come miles defensively and has been keying things with big energy at that end. A quote he had back early in the season about wanting one day to be one of the best defenders in the league raised my eyebrows at the time but is now beginning to make sense. If he stays focused on that goal, wiht his size, length, and athleticism he legitimately could be.

 

[AriesMar27]

according to realgm, the jazz are willing to possibly package boozer with their 1st round pick. it didnt say what they were asking for but they are pretty weak at sg. we dont need boozer but the pick would be awesome. we could flip boozer to another team like the cavs and take back ilgauskas.... we would then have a back up center for the rest of the season and the knicks pick for the low, low price of martin and some filler(may & greene)...

kings trade
martin/greene/may
kings receive
ilgauskas/utah's 1st

utah trades
boozer/1st pick
utah receives
martin/greene/may

cavs trade
ilgauskas
cavs receives
boozer

it all works financially.... and makes each team better in the end, the kings and jazz for the long term, the cavs in the short term.... long term if they win a ring with lebron/boozer/shaq.

 

[Bricklayer]

according to realgm, the jazz are willing to possibly package boozer with their 1st round pick. it didnt say what they were asking for but they are pretty weak at sg. we dont need boozer but the pick would be awesome. we could flip boozer to another team like the cavs and take back ilgauskas.... we would then have a back up center for the rest of the season and the knicks pick for the low, low price of martin and some filler(may & greene)...

kings trade
martin/greene/may
kings receive
ilgauskas/utah's 1st

utah trades
boozer/1st pick
utah receives
martin/greene/may

cavs trade
ilgauskas
cavs receives
boozer

it all works financially.... and makes each team better in the end, the kings and jazz for the long term, the cavs in the short term.... long term if they win a ring with lebron/boozer/shaq.

What the heck is Greene's name doing involved in this?

You'd be nuttier than a fruitcake to just throw him into something with the flashes he has been showing. could easily end up being better than the player you get with that pick.

 

[VF21]

What the heck is Greene's name doing involved in this?

You'd be nuttier than a fruitcake to just throw him into something with the flashes he has been showing. could easily end up being better than the player you get with that pick.

I have to second that opinion. I've been as hard as anyone on Greene, but he's starting to show he might just fulfill the faith some around here showed in him. Trading him away - especially in that scenario - doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I have to second that opinion. I've been as hard as anyone on Greene, but he's starting to show he might just fulfill the faith some around here showed in him. Trading him away - especially in that scenario - doesn't make much sense to me.

On top of that, I'm not particularly sure why we would want to flip Boozer's expiring contract ($12.3M) for Ilguaskas' ($11.5M). It can't be to save money, as that extra $800K isn't much to buy a significantly better (and younger) player.

If Boozer's in a deal, we should hold on to him and see how it goes, not flip him.

 

[Kingsguy881]

according to realgm, the jazz are willing to possibly package boozer with their 1st round pick. it didnt say what they were asking for but they are pretty weak at sg. we dont need boozer but the pick would be awesome. we could flip boozer to another team like the cavs and take back ilgauskas.... we would then have a back up center for the rest of the season and the knicks pick for the low, low price of martin and some filler(may & greene)...

kings trade
martin/greene/may
kings receive
ilgauskas/utah's 1st

utah trades
boozer/1st pick
utah receives
martin/greene/may

cavs trade
ilgauskas
cavs receives
boozer

it all works financially.... and makes each team better in the end, the kings and jazz for the long term, the cavs in the short term.... long term if they win a ring with lebron/boozer/shaq.

Giving up WAAAY too much. You like trades where we get 85% less talent than we give up, don't cha? This is a HORRIBLE trade idea, sorry, not even trying to be mean. All this trade would do is give the Kings cap relief while giving up what is probably a top 10 prospect that has shown tremendous potential. A very cheap prospect too.

No dice, if this was your way to prove that Petrie is an idiot and you would make a better GM.....epic fail.

Edit: and why would Cleveland want Boozer back after he promised them to resign and then bolted for Utah? I would assume there is no team more sour at a player than Cleveland is with Boozer.

 

[bajaden]

according to realgm, the jazz are willing to possibly package boozer with their 1st round pick. it didnt say what they were asking for but they are pretty weak at sg. we dont need boozer but the pick would be awesome. we could flip boozer to another team like the cavs and take back ilgauskas.... we would then have a back up center for the rest of the season and the knicks pick for the low, low price of martin and some filler(may & greene)...

kings trade
martin/greene/may
kings receive
ilgauskas/utah's 1st

utah trades
boozer/1st pick
utah receives
martin/greene/may

cavs trade
ilgauskas
cavs receives
boozer

it all works financially.... and makes each team better in the end, the kings and jazz for the long term, the cavs in the short term.... long term if they win a ring with lebron/boozer/shaq.

Let me see if I've got this straight, because I think my eye's are deceiving me. Were trading Kevin Martin, Donte Greene, and Sean May for Ilgauskas and Utah's first round pick. Not even New Yorks first round pick, which they possess. At the end of the year, Ilgauskas contract is up, he walks, and we end up trading Martin, Greene and May for a mid-range (at best) first round pick.

OH YEAh! I'm on board for that one. Why don't we throw in our first round pick as well while were at it?

 

[AriesMar27]

the knicks pick belongs to utah so i called it utahs pick my bad... the pick alone is worth the trade if it ends up being a top 4 pick...