Keon Ellis and Dennis Schroder traded to Cleveland in 3 team deal. Kings acquire De’Andre Hunter

I don't really think anything about the Hunter trade, either way. I was trying to reconcile the notion that the Kings won this trade with the belief that they will still finish in the bottom 5. I don't think that some people here appreciate just how little improvement it would require to go from the worst record in the NBA to the sixth-worst. Like, not really much at all, and if the Kings won this trade, that might about do it.
Since you asked (you didn't, but this is a good jumping off point) - I decided to see how the lottery treated various teams since the last odds adjustment.

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The team with the worst record has never picked first after the lottery; the best they have done is come in second (twice). That team has also picked fifth three times (the last three years).

Other than 2023, every year one or more teams originally slotted at pick 7 or higher have jumped into the top 4. Four out of the 7 years saw two or more teams originally slotted at 7 or worse pop into the top 4.

The teams most often picking first were the teams originally slotted at 2 and 3 (four of the seven drafts, twice each). Others were originally at positions 7, 10, and 11.

The team originally slated to pick at 7 popped into the top 4 more often than they didn't (four times in vs. three times staying out). The team originally at 8 did almost as well, jumping into the top 4 a total of three times. So, the teams at positions 7 and 8 pre lottery jumped into the top 4 an average of 50% of the time.

The team at 11 has jumped into the top 4 twice.
 
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@Warhawk, I kind of break ranks with you on some of that because I feel like, if you've already decided to lose, you might as well lose big... My thing is, in the meantime, they're still trying to sell tickets right now. They're still trying to get STHs to renew right now. If you go to the Kings' page on NBA.com, they've got all kinds of plans for sale for the remainder of the season.

Whether it works out or not, presumably they're trying to avoid playing in an empty arena while they wait for their handful of magic beans to turn into a beanstalk: how do you sell tickets today, when all you have to offer the paying customer is tomorrow?
 
@Warhawk, I kind of break ranks with you on some of that because I feel like, if you've already decided to lose, you might as well lose big... My thing is, in the meantime, they're still trying to sell tickets right now. They're still trying to get STHs to renew right now. If you go to the Kings' page on NBA.com, they've got all kinds of plans for sale for the remainder of the season.

Whether it works out or not, presumably they're trying to avoid playing in an empty arena while they wait for their handful of magic beans to turn into a beanstalk: how do you sell tickets today, when all you have to offer the paying customer is tomorrow?
What exactly are you referring to? I'm lost here.
 
Interesting stat….does kind of pass the eye test also. While I love Keon’s activity on d, he’s not a perfect well rounded defender. In the right system (probably with Mobley and Allen behind him) he should do great.

Yeah, Keon is a gambler. In the play in game last season it was what the playoffs might look like for him. Refs aren't going to let anyone swipe down on stars looking to get their hand on the ball that frequently. Not every single game. He could have some games of minimal time based on foul trouble.
 
What exactly are you referring to? I'm lost here.
The general over-arching sentiment of, "The draft is a crapshoot: why do you guys act like it's the end-all?" It's not the end-all, but it's the second-most valuable tool the Kings have at their disposal, behind only talent evaluation itself. But talent evaluation is most useful at discovering gems and, the only thing about that, is that it's not historically super-common for gems to become franchise cornerstones.

Personally my biggest objection to tanking has always been that it's disrespectful to the people who are paying for tickets in the present, banking on the ability to recoup those "losses" in the future.
 
The general over-arching sentiment of, "The draft is a crapshoot: why do you guys act like it's the end-all?" It's not the end-all, but it's the second-most valuable tool the Kings have at their disposal, behind only talent evaluation itself. But talent evaluation is most useful at discovering gems and, the only thing about that, is that it's not historically super-common for gems to become franchise cornerstones.

Personally my biggest objection to tanking has always been that it's disrespectful to the people who are paying for tickets in the present, banking on the ability to recoup those "losses" in the future.
Gotcha. Actually, this time I was just genuinely curious when I put this together. I had glanced at the most recent couple of years not long ago, but I decided to put it together just to see what the data actually says (since the odds were changed). It doesn't fit the "expected" odds with so few samples to draw from, but the results are indeed still curious.

You were saying that we have some danger of falling out of the top five. Seven years of drafts have seen numerous teams in the 7-8 range in particular jumping into the top 4 and, coincidentally, some of the top 5 teams falling out of the top 5 after the lottery:

Pre-lottery position and # times drafting in the top 5:

1. All seven times (a given, as top four positions are by lottery)
2. Six times
3. Five times
4. Two times
5. Four times

The top 5 pre-lottery positioned teams have actually gotten a top 5 pick in 24 of 35 drafts picks, an average hit rate of 69% over the first seven years. 31% of the top 5 picks over that time have gone to teams outside the top 5 positions pre-lottery.
 
Ignoring Saric, who never played and is filler, we traded two smalls for a big (which everyone says is impossible) and if we truly lost the trade talent-wise, why is anyone thinking we'll get good enough to move out of last place significantly (bottom three teams all have the same odds for #1, right?)? I don't really know how good or bad Hunter is (I don't watch him play), but we're getting rid of Dennis which everyone wanted, badly.

We balanced the team roster a bit, which everyone was also clamoring for all year.

Losing Keon sucks - he was likely my son's favorite player on the team and I was really hoping they would be able to keep him. But if he was gone anyways (wanted too much salary, didn't want to be here, whatever), he was already gone. And I'm certainly not going to worry too much about the worst of 3 different team's second round picks in 3 years at this point.

I think this may be a step in the right direction for team building overall given the above.

Maybe it is our consolation prize with Golden State being pretty stupid about JK? Hard to know.
Yea I think this definitely shows how serious Perry is about acquiring the type of players he thinks we need. Curious to see if they can make another move or two
 
This seems like the sort of qualifier that is designed to put the most positive, pro-Kings spin on the trade possible... What if he signs for 3/45 and does progress as a player? I mean, on a scale of 1-10, how confident are you that this organization maximized Ellis' potential?
Keon is my favorite player. He was the best guard on our roster. Messing this up was a massive failure.

I fully anticipate him to fit in well with any contender because hes a plug and play.

Believe me Im not putting a kings spin from my own pov. Im simply saying this will be judged by what happens a year/two from now. When we traded hali for sabonis we heard win/win, until hali went to the finals and it was how tf did sac do that.

My opinion is keon is a stud. Kings brass doesnt feel the same. I think they will be wrong. But im interested to see.
 
Keon is my favorite player. He was the best guard on our roster. Messing this up was a massive failure.

I fully anticipate him to fit in well with any contender because hes a plug and play.

Believe me Im not putting a kings spin from my own pov. Im simply saying this will be judged by what happens a year/two from now. When we traded hali for sabonis we heard win/win, until hali went to the finals and it was how tf did sac do that.

My opinion is keon is a stud. Kings brass doesnt feel the same. I think they will be wrong. But im interested to see.
The your (best) guard averages 6ppg and cant beat out your childhood fav player, you have bigger things to worry about.

Yes he will fit in well with Cleveland. Not because hes that good, but because he has two giants guarding the paint while he gambles for steals. Feels like a match made in role player heaven honestly.

Hunter imo is the better player for us now.
But as long as Westbrook Lavine and Debo are on this team, we will go nowhere
Ellis or no Ellis
 
Keon is my favorite player. He was the best guard on our roster. Messing this up was a massive failure.

I fully anticipate him to fit in well with any contender because hes a plug and play.

Believe me Im not putting a kings spin from my own pov. Im simply saying this will be judged by what happens a year/two from now. When we traded hali for sabonis we heard win/win, until hali went to the finals and it was how tf did sac do that.

My opinion is keon is a stud. Kings brass doesnt feel the same. I think they will be wrong. But im interested to see.

It's all about the long game. We have to see what that Pacers are moving forward. It's very possible they were one of those 1 and done wonders. There's been a lot of those recently in the league. In the end Domas and Hali are probably somewhere in the same range so whatever. Hali is younger and fills a more valuable position however.

As for this trade, at the very least it's probable the Kings got the best player in the deal so there's that. If Hunter can stay healthy and go back to being a top option on a team he might rise so lets see.
 
CBS Trade Grades

Sacramento had a team option on Ellis' contract worth roughly the minimum. This is fairly standard for undrafted or second-round success stories, and the smart play is usually to decline that team option. Why? Because it makes the player a restricted free agent. That way, he can get guaranteed, life-changing money faster, while you can lock the player up under team-friendly terms thanks to the matching rights that come in restricted free agency. Oklahoma City uses this strategy all of the time. It's how the Thunder locked Lu Dort, Aaron Wiggins, Isaiah Joe and Jaylin Williams into below-market contracts.

Well, apparently the Kings, lottery dwellers in 17 of the past 18 seasons, know better than the defending champion Thunder, because they picked up their option on Ellis. That allowed them to keep him at roughly the minimum, but it meant he would be an unrestricted free agent in 2026. They used the extra financial flexibility gained by keeping Ellis at a low cap figure to sign Schröder, whom they spent most of this season trying to dump when he got outplayed by Russell Westbrook on a minimum salary.

As all of this was happening, the sharks started circling on Ellis. Sacramento never seemed bothered by the fact that the smartest teams in the league, like the Cavaliers, the Celtics and the Spurs, were all interested in Ellis. Nope. This was a player the Kings needed to dump... probably because they knew one of those smart teams was going to swipe him in free agency next summer for nothing.

Perry is the gift that keeps on giving.
 
It's all about the long game. We have to see what that Pacers are moving forward. It's very possible they were one of those 1 and done wonders. There's been a lot of those recently in the league. In the end Domas and Hali are probably somewhere in the same range so whatever. Hali is younger and fills a more valuable position however.

As for this trade, at the very least it's probable the Kings got the best player in the deal so there's that. If Hunter can stay healthy and go back to being a top option on a team he might rise so lets see.
Best thing the Pacers have going for them is that they somehow got the Pels to give them back their pick for this season literal hours before Tyrese shredded his Achilles and really wrecked this season for them.

The other thing we’re seeing is how Myles Turner really covered a lot of holes for them on defense that they haven’t been able to really fix since losing him.
 
CBS Trade Grades



Perry is the gift that keeps on giving.
Most serious posters on this board knew this, it was a head scratcher when it happened. CBS writer didn't come up with anything special. Obviously the organization for some reason wasn't comfortable with matching full market value on Keon this year so elected to use him as a trade chip. If we weren't in last place and hoping for a top 5 pick, trading Keon for Hunter might be viewed under a much different lens, as that is the effective net of signing Schröder and this trade.

I'm definitely not happy about it. But more so because I think if Hunter plays and Keegan has an actual wing partner and if we don't move Domas, DDR, Monk, or Zach we might play ourselves into the 8th pick.

If we rest him and he stays I'm interested to see what he does next year.
 
The your (best) guard averages 6ppg and cant beat out your childhood fav player, you have bigger things to worry about.

Yes he will fit in well with Cleveland. Not because hes that good, but because he has two giants guarding the paint while he gambles for steals. Feels like a match made in role player heaven honestly.

Hunter imo is the better player for us now.
But as long as Westbrook Lavine and Debo are on this team, we will go nowhere
Ellis or no Ellis
All that matters is the last sentence you wrote.

Its not that Ellis couldn't beat out these trash vets. The vets are higher paid and Christie is favoring them. Clearly the team sucks and is miserable to watch, zero chance we would be worse playing Keon over pick your choice.

And the fact that Hunter is better than Keon is debatable, but lets put that aside and agree. Why do the Kings want to get better today? Why do we want to hurt the tank? Why do we want to get older? This team has zero direction or thought process behind anything they do.
 
It's all about the long game. We have to see what that Pacers are moving forward. It's very possible they were one of those 1 and done wonders. There's been a lot of those recently in the league. In the end Domas and Hali are probably somewhere in the same range so whatever. Hali is younger and fills a more valuable position however.

As for this trade, at the very least it's probable the Kings got the best player in the deal so there's that. If Hunter can stay healthy and go back to being a top option on a team he might rise so lets see.
I hope you are right about Hunter. But .
19/20 - 63 games played - 12.3ppg
20/21 - 23 games played - 15ppg
21/22 - 53 games played - 13.4ppg
22/23 - 67 games played - 15.4ppg
23/24 - 57 games played - 15.6ppg
24/25 - 64 games played - 17ppg
25/26 - 43 games played - 14ppg

He is who he is. A mid defender who puts off the idea hes better than he is because his size/length. He's never played 70 games in a season. Hes always averaged between 13-15 outside of 1 outlier season.

Hes scheduled to make 25 million next year in an apron era where guys like Trae Young can't fetch an asset. The idea that Hunter is going to be worth a 1st round pick next year seems so far outside the realm of possibility that I can't believe I keep hearing it (not saying you said this, but its everywhere on X). Maybe Perry felt that way, but its a line of thinking that belongs 5-10 years ago, not today. We just saw an off-season of expirings on these type of contracts get treated as negative.

I hope I'm wrong. I really hope some team gives us something for Hunter. I think the more likely result is we see he has no trade value and we end up giving him an extension at some point.
 
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All that matters is the last sentence you wrote.

Its not that Ellis couldn't beat out these trash vets. The vets are higher paid and Christie is favoring them. Clearly the team sucks and is miserable to watch, zero chance we would be worse playing Keon over pick your choice.

And the fact that Hunter is better than Keon is debatable, but lets put that aside and agree. Why do the Kings want to get better today? Why do we want to hurt the tank? Why do we want to get older? This team has zero direction or thought process behind anything they do.
I've seen it alluded to elsewhere that fans and NBA GMs/coaches may value Keon differently.

I honestly don't get it.

What we know now is ~10 teams were at least interested in him, but this was the offer we took. I think the most interesting things to watch are going to be a) his MPG the remainder of the season and b) his salary next year to get a grasp on how coaches and GMs around the league value him. If he isn't a full MLE* or higher guy, or he doesn't shoot up in minutes played, what is it fans and see (and some advanced stats show) that they don't like?

I've heard some non-Kings fans suggest he could be signed/re-signed for ~8mil/per. I feel like if that is market value we'd have either let him go to market as a restricted last summer, so where he lands is going to be very interesting for certain.
 
I hope you are right about Hunter. But .
19/20 - 63 games played - 12.3ppg
20/21 - 23 games played - 15ppg
21/22 - 53 games played - 13.4ppg
22/23 - 67 games played - 15.4ppg
23/24 - 57 games played - 15.6ppg
24/25 - 64 games played - 17ppg
25/26 - 43 games played - 14ppg

He is who he is. A mid defender who puts off the idea hes better than he is because his size/length. He's never played 70 games in a season. Hes always averaged between 13-15 outside of 1 outlier season.

Hes scheduled to make 25 million next year in an apron era where guys like Trae Young can't fetch an asset. The idea that Hunter is going to be worth a 1st round pick next year seems so far outside the realm of possibility that I can't believe I keep hearing it. Maybe Perry felt that way, but its a line of thinking that belongs 5-10 years ago, not today. We just saw an off-season of expirings on these type of contracts get treated as negative.

I hope I'm wrong. I really hope some team gives us something for Hunter. I think the more likely result is we see he has no trade value and we end up giving him an extension at some point.
There's a lot of guys on longer contracts making 25 million that we could take back in order to get that pick. His value next year is as an expiring, and because he's in that dying middle class it will be a much bigger market than finding a deal in which Zach fits. If we hit the lotto this year and are searching for complimentary pieces and not a draft pick home run I could see it happening.

Especially if the draft isn't viewed as highly as 3 of the last 4 years (including this upcoming draft) have been.
 
I hope you are right about Hunter. But .
19/20 - 63 games played - 12.3ppg
20/21 - 23 games played - 15ppg
21/22 - 53 games played - 13.4ppg
22/23 - 67 games played - 15.4ppg
23/24 - 57 games played - 15.6ppg
24/25 - 64 games played - 17ppg
25/26 - 43 games played - 14ppg

He is who he is. A mid defender who puts off the idea hes better than he is because his size/length. He's never played 70 games in a season. Hes always averaged between 13-15 outside of 1 outlier season.

Hes scheduled to make 25 million next year in an apron era where guys like Trae Young can't fetch an asset. The idea that Hunter is going to be worth a 1st round pick next year seems so far outside the realm of possibility that I can't believe I keep hearing it. Maybe Perry felt that way, but its a line of thinking that belongs 5-10 years ago, not today. We just saw an off-season of expirings on these type of contracts get treated as negative.

I hope I'm wrong. I really hope some team gives us something for Hunter. I think the more likely result is we see he has no trade value and we end up giving him an extension at some point.

Hunter really only makes sense as a future flip candidate. Get him in town, rehab his value and flip him for picks down the line. Maybe that doesn't get a 1st, but you got off the Dennis contract in the meantime.

Worst case is this is us "buying" to gear up to be competitive next year and short-cut the rebuild. We'll see.
 
I've seen it alluded to elsewhere that fans and NBA GMs/coaches may value Keon differently.

I honestly don't get it.

What we know now is ~10 teams were at least interested in him, but this was the offer we took. I think the most interesting things to watch are going to be a) his MPG the remainder of the season and b) his salary next year to get a grasp on how coaches and GMs around the league value him. If he isn't a full MLE* or higher guy, or he doesn't shoot up in minutes played, what is it fans and see (and some advanced stats show) that they don't like?

I've heard some non-Kings fans suggest he could be signed/re-signed for ~8mil/per. I feel like if that is market value we'd have either let him go to market as a restricted last summer, so where he lands is going to be very interesting for certain.
As a huge Keon fan, I just really don't want to see him end up in LA next to Luka for the next 4 years. I'll be watching and hoping for him to succeed, and truly hope that a good team values him enough to give him a clear and defined consistent role. It's been so frustrating watching this team use him... From DNP to starter, to 10 mins off the bench, the guy has never had consistency.
 
My take on Keon is, he can't dribble, and god forbid he leads a break. A guy who needs to be a ball handler who cannot do those things is very limited, regardless of how good he is defensively and catch and shoot. He deserved more minutes than he got, but probably not a ton more.

This has nothing to do with the value of the trade, this is just him in a box. I think there is a way to gameplay for him to succeed, but you need to have strong personnel around him. I think he will flourish in Cleveland.
 
Hunter really only makes sense as a future flip candidate. Get him in town, rehab his value and flip him for picks down the line. Maybe that doesn't get a 1st, but you got off the Dennis contract in the meantime.

Worst case is this is us "buying" to gear up to be competitive next year and short-cut the rebuild. We'll see.
We're still going to stink next year if Zach is on the team. If Hunter plays well and we land a franchise talent in the draft I imagine we extend him on a more manageable contract, like how Barnes consistently signed for less than the deal we acquired him on. If he can be the 5th best starter at 18m ok?

But if he can't be healthy and or stinks the flip makes sense too. We'd again have to settle for 2 years of a distressed asset to get a pick, but could revolve that until we actually are in the position to need that space to retain our own guys. Hopefully that day comes much sooner than later, but at this stage the draft is our only hope. If all our money comes off the books in 2027 I have absolutely zero hope that we'd sign anyone, we'd probably be absorbing bad contracts from other teams in exchange for their 2028 picks at that point.
 
As a huge Keon fan, I just really don't want to see him end up in LA next to Luka for the next 4 years. I'll be watching and hoping for him to succeed, and truly hope that a good team values him enough to give him a clear and defined consistent role. It's been so frustrating watching this team use him... From DNP to starter, to 10 mins off the bench, the guy has never had consistency.
The good news is that I don't think LA has the cap to sign him unless he becomes part of a LeBron sign and trade to facilitate that homecoming. I know a lot of people want to see that, I don't like it for Cleveland and hope it doesn't happen.
 
There's a lot of guys on longer contracts making 25 million that we could take back in order to get that pick. His value next year is as an expiring, and because he's in that dying middle class it will be a much bigger market than finding a deal in which Zach fits. If we hit the lotto this year and are searching for complimentary pieces and not a draft pick home run I could see it happening.

Especially if the draft isn't viewed as highly as 3 of the last 4 years (including this upcoming draft) have been.
Ya I think thats the scenario. We could use his salary to trade for a guy like Poeltl and probably get a pick for doing it. Maybe Patrick Williams? Daniel Gafford? But honestly the list is pretty limited. And the value there is really eating the negative salary. Schroder could have been used to do that.

And Demar is only partial for next year. So if Perry is inclined to take those deals they are there right now. What's stopping them from trading Demar for one of these contracts? I'm not sure there are any teams who are willing to pay to dump a contract right now. Teams are just waiting it out like Sac media seems to think we are.
 
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