Kenny/Corliss for Odom/Cook?

[ReinadelosReys]

I understand the discussion - I just do not see what is the point of bringing up Webber here.

I've pretty much come to conclusion that as long as the grass is green, Chris Webber will always be brought up in whatever discussion we are having.

Fan A: So I hear that Joe Maloof wants to build a new casino
Fan B: Oh really, is that so? Chris Webber cost too much money, I bet Joe has more money now since the Kings traded him to build a new casino

or

Fan A: Congrats, you're an aunt! Its a boy!
Fan B: Wow, thats great! Have you thought of any names yet?
Fan A: We'll we were thinking about Chr---
Fan B: You know, Chris Webber was a fantastic basketball player for the Kings! Darn that Petrie, the worst move in the history of the NBA!

 

[Entity]

Your average PF Elton Brand

Elton Brand vs. Tim Duncan
12/31/04 14 pts 8 reb
1/19/05 14 pts 18 reb

Elton Brand vs. Kevin Garnett
12/4/04 10 pts 7 reb
12/17/04 17 pts 7 reb
2/24/05 24 pts 7 reb
3/27/05 23 pts 7 reb

Elton Brand vs. Det Wallace/Wallace
11/8/04 21 pts 4 reb
4/1/05 22 pts 11 reb

Elton Brand vs. Kings with Webber
1/15/05 25 pts 14 reb
1/17/05 24 pts 10 reb

Elton Brand vs Kings with Thomas
3/11/05 10 pts 2 reb
3/19/05 22 pts 8 reb

Now How does KT differ from some of the elite PF in the league as far as defense or reobunding goes when it comes to your average PF???????????????????????

 

[piksi]

Simply that we were justifiably dissatisfied with the interior defense and rebounding at the time. And yet they were actually statistically BETTER. Also of course that we've seen what Webber/Miller looks like together, and can thus pretty well predict what Thomas/Miller will look like. A bleeping red carpet right to the rim.

I think (not sure) that our scoring is up a little.

Eventhough there might be no improvement ( I disagree BTW) - we have more flexibility

Webber & Miller might be similar (better) to Thomas & Miller by the numbers but it is not better than Thomas & Miller & Skinner & Williamson.

Considering the injuries to Miller and Webber (ticking bomb for the rest of career) GP does look like friggin genious.

It is very very probable that - with injuries to Miller and Webber - Kings would not have made PO.

Now there might be some who would have be fine with it and blame it on bad luck but for me it would suck big time.

We do not know what will happen when and if Miller comes back. We might get surprised.

We have - what we have and it could have been much, much worse

 

[teamdimechampionship]

C-Webb and Christei areboth hurt right now. Kenny,Brian, Corliss, and Cuttino all healthy! We wouldn't even have a team if GP didn't make these moves! Genius could be an understatement!

 

[Entity]

nice post but don't forget about Darius in that mix of frontcourt players. Versatlilaty, athletisism and speed have all been upgraded since the trade. those 3 things can bring big things.

 

[6th]

C-Webb and Christei areboth hurt right now. Kenny,Brian, Corliss, and Cuttino all healthy! We wouldn't even have a team if GP didn't make these moves! Genius could be an understatement!

I am thinking genius soothsayer fits GP pretty well.

 

[teamdimechampionship]

I am thinking genius soothsayer fits GP pretty well.

I like!

 

[piksi]

Now How does KT differ from some of the elite PF in the league as far as defense or reobunding goes when it comes to your average PF???????????????????????

He does not according to the numbers.

Hard to say anything because every player fits in our system if he is ready to pass the ball. Thomas is not a better or more talented than Webber. Never was, never will be. He is just healthier and he is not a first option which makes him more dangerous and his teammates more involved. If KT were first option we would suck big time. We have a great system in which everybody has an opportunity to do well. We have a coach that (drives me crazy sometimes) trust his players sometimes even more than they deserve. If You are uncapable to prosper as a King - something is very wrong with You.
If You are lucky enough to escape from Philly - You are reborn and have no choice but to play well. The question is - how long will it last ?

 

[Bricklayer]

Your average PF Elton Brand

Elton Brand vs. Tim Duncan
12/31/04 14 pts 8 reb
1/19/05 14 pts 18 reb

Elton Brand vs. Kevin Garnett
12/4/04 10 pts 7 reb
12/17/04 17 pts 7 reb
2/24/05 24 pts 7 reb
3/27/05 23 pts 7 reb

Elton Brand vs. Det Wallace/Wallace
11/8/04 21 pts 4 reb
4/1/05 22 pts 11 reb

Elton Brand vs. Kings with Webber
1/15/05 25 pts 14 reb
1/17/05 24 pts 10 reb

Elton Brand vs Kings with Thomas
3/11/05 10 pts 2 reb
3/19/05 22 pts 8 reb

Now How does KT differ from some of the elite PF in the league as far as defense or reobunding goes when it comes to your average PF???????????????????????

Which would be fine if we had to beat the Cllippers to win a title. We don't. The issue is not this team, or this PF's ability to play with and beat most bad teams and middling PFs (Brand is more than that, but he's undersized himself).

The issue is:
Dirk Nowitzki (35pts on 13-24 last time out)
Tim Duncan (averaged 29pts 12.5rebs on 59% shooting against KT in Philly this year)
Kevin Garnett (30 and 13 on 11-14 last time)
the Detroit Wallace/Wallace/McDyess frontline (shot 6-12, 7-12, 6-7 for a combined 46pts 27rebs last time out -- Ben Wallace was KTs man at 19 and 14)

 

[Bricklayer]

We have - what we have and it could have been much, much worse

Now, see you are the one taking things down that wrong curve and arguing the old trade once again. We're past that. We've already moved on to the NEXT trade -- get with the times buddy.

 

[teamdimechampionship]

Its notlike Webber played much D either... I like what RA said...Before the trade we were rebounding below the rim. Since the trade we rebound above the rim.

 

[piksi]

Now, see you are the one taking things down that wrong curve and arguing the old trade once again. We're past that. We've already moved on to the NEXT trade -- get with the times buddy.

funny, since You were the one bringing up Webber and his numbers.

I have moved on the same moment that the trade was announced.

I will move on to the next trade - when it happenes. Not before.

Untill then - I will support what we have and hope for the best. I believe that this team with little luck (which we never really had) can be a surprise.

 

[AriesMar27]

my thread really has taken a life of its own hasnt it?

but we should all know that thomas is not the answer for this team..... if he were a back up... then maybe... but not as our starter.... people bringing up webber, brad and christie being hurt isnt even an issue.... this is the kings... we do 2 things really well... score and get injured.... when has webber ever played more than 70 games? i'd much rather have a preinjury webber than kenny, corliss and brian anyday of the week... numbers be damned.... if brad were healthy skinner wouldnt be getting nearly as many minutes.... if darius werent a foul machine neither would thomas.... and if "if" were a spliff we'd be all [explicit]ed up.....

i love this team..... go kings...

 

[teamdimechampionship]

my thread really has taken a life of its own hasnt it?

QUOTE]
I was just thinkin the same thing!

 

[SacTownKid]

2 guys who can't defend the paint, 2 guys who can't post...

THIS is the main issue. Brad and Kenny together is every bit as bad as Brad and Webb at stopping the OTHER team from working us inside (indeed hobbled Webb blocked twice as many shos and grabbed more defensive boards than KT). And you can't call a play for either in the post. You might be able to have one or the other starting for you if you pair them with a big shotblocker. But both together = literally the worst interior defending frontcourt in the NBA (actually the Hawks might be worse). That's not going to work. You can win a lot of games over weaker opponents that way. Nobody has EVER won the big one that way. Mentioned before -- we are Dallas. Its fools gold that many a team has fallen into over the years, but that the serious ones get over and try to correct. You HAVE to have interior presence, or you're not going anywhere.

I disagree. Kenny is a much more capable defender then Webber. And anyways EVERYONE knows that Rick Adelman IS NOT a defensive coach, and this team has never been a defensive powerhouse. This team needs to employ TEAM defense not individual defense. I don't care what team you are, if you can't stop penetration you're screwed. There are maybe 1 or 2 players in the league that can secure the paint on their own and thats it.

In other words, I gave up fitting the words defense and Kings into the same sentence a looong time ago. Its not the players, its the system. Skinner has shown flashes, but he can't do it alone.

But the things KT and Miller can do offensively will be unbelievable to see.

 

[VF21]

my thread really has taken a life of its own hasnt it?

Yes, it has. How convenient that some far-seeing moderator had the presence of mind to split it away from that other thread where it was simply just another post at the end of a lot of other posts.

 

[SacTownKid]

Which would be fine if we had to beat the Cllippers to win a title. We don't. The issue is not this team, or this PF's ability to play with and beat most bad teams and middling PFs (Brand is more than that, but he's undersized himself).

The issue is:
Dirk Nowitzki (35pts on 13-24 last time out)
Tim Duncan (averaged 29pts 12.5rebs on 59% shooting against KT in Philly this year)
Kevin Garnett (30 and 13 on 11-14 last time)
the Detroit Wallace/Wallace/McDyess frontline (shot 6-12, 7-12, 6-7 for a combined 46pts 27rebs last time out -- Ben Wallace was KTs man at 19 and 14)

Who shuts those guys down anyhow??? I mean give me a break.

 

[Pollardo!]

If There's One Thing I Hate...

It's the Sacramento Kings.

No, wait... two things:

Their fans. Oh, Jeez don't even get me started!

All kidding aside, this thread sure took a nasty turn somewhere down the street from Albuquerque. Not that a topic needs to stay on, well, topic, but in response to where the great debate began, I don't really see the Odom/Cook trade being the answer for us. Sure It may address some height/length issues, but Odom is even slimmer than KT, and kid of a tweener at that- Not in the traditional sense, but he's tall enough to play the 4, but really he's better suited for the 3, where really we don't need the help.

A trade for Odom would best be suited for us if it involved Peja, but considering StoyJack's play of late, I'm not in such a hurry to move him along. Sure, a lineup of Brad, KT, and Odom would be one of the most versatile in the league, it does very little for our post deficiencies, and interior toughness.

-Back to our regularly scheduled arguement-

Anyone want a hug?

 

[Bricklayer]

Who shuts those guys down anyhow??? I mean give me a break.

Well given that none of those guys averages 35, 29 and 13, shoots 11-14 every night or whatever, I would say that there are a lot of people out there doing a considerably better job than we do against them.

But that's tip of the iceberg sort of stuff. The obvious one-on-one comparisons against the elite PF performers who guard the gates in the playoffs. The rest of the iceberg is that we can't shut down the paint to penetrations or postups from any of the other players on the court either. Even with Skinner providing respectable shotblocking, there is no intimidation inside for us. And then we are going to replace Skinner's 2-3 with Brad's 1 and...oh boy.

 

[Bricklayer]

I disagree. Kenny is a much more capable defender then Webber. And anyways EVERYONE knows that Rick Adelman IS NOT a defensive coach, and this team has never been a defensive powerhouse.

I will have to check your join date to see when exactly you started watching the Kings, but maybe you missed the fact that during our peak years we were a Top 10 defensive team, one year even finishing first in OppFG%.

And it WAS the personnel. We were BIG. We blocked shots. At one point our frontcourt rotation was 7'1" Divac, 6'9" Webb, 6'11" Clark and 6'11" Pollard. Our SFs were 6'9" as a starter and 6'10" as a backup.

 

[AriesMar27]

Yes, it has. How convenient that some far-seeing moderator had the presence of mind to split it away from that other thread where it was simply just another post at the end of a lot of other posts.

yeah... thanks... now we have another thread gone completely off topic and is now dedicated to webber... lol...

 

[AriesMar27]

I will have to check your join date to see when exactly you started watching the Kings, but maybe you missed the fact that during our peak years we were a Top 10 defensive team, one year even finishing first in OppFG%.

And it WAS the personnel. We were BIG. We blocked shots. At one point our frontcourt rotation was 7'1" Divac, 6'9" Webb, 6'11" Clark and 6'11" Pollard. Our SFs were 6'9" as a starter and 6'10" as a backup.

those were the days.... not to mention the jackson and jackson combo we had coming off the bench.... wow... what happened? now we have a undersized 2 guard with a undersized back up... our back up point guard is an undersized 2 guard but then a gain, our injured back up point guard is a undersized 2 guard.... our back up 3,4 & 5 are also undersized.... minus tag.... he doesnt count... wow... how lucky are we to be going to the playoffs?

 

[teamdimechampionship]

yeah... thanks... now we have another thread gone completely off topic and is now dedicated to webber... lol...

Maybe we sshould just have a C-Webb forum!

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

:: sigh ::

Webber is still relevant to many discussions about the Kings, if only as a means of comparison. And those of you who have a problem with that really need to get over it. As time passes, the Webber discussion around here will eventually decrease; until then, suck it up.

 

[6th]

:: sigh ::

Webber is still relevant to many discussions about the Kings, if only as a means of comparison. And those of you who have a problem with that really need to get over it. As time passes, the Webber discussion around here will eventually decrease; until then, suck it up.

My thoughts exactly, Slim. Chris Webber made the Kings matter. Along with Vlade and JWill, he made the Kings exciting to watch. That continued when we got Peja, Doug, and Bibby. That group then took the Sacramento era Kings to the Western Conference finals, a series we almost won. This was all after years and years of cellar dwelling.

Chris Webber is the best player to ever play for the Sacramento Kings. He will be held up as the standard for everyone else to follow. Until we get a superstar who plays even better basketball than CWebb, expect comparisons to continue.

 

[Pqster]

He does not according to the numbers.

Hard to say anything because every player fits in our system if he is ready to pass the ball. Thomas is not a better or more talented than Webber. Never was, never will be. He is just healthier and he is not a first option which makes him more dangerous and his teammates more involved. If KT were first option we would suck big time. We have a great system in which everybody has an opportunity to do well. We have a coach that (drives me crazy sometimes) trust his players sometimes even more than they deserve. If You are uncapable to prosper as a King - something is very wrong with You.
If You are lucky enough to escape from Philly - You are reborn and have no choice but to play well. The question is - how long will it last ?

I think you are right, I'm not sure about the sucking big time part, but I don't think he has the size or talent to be a number 1 option. KT is a better role player that can fit into a number 2 or 3 option. This is a point that if some Kings Fan come to terms with instead of harping on his size and limitations, I think Fans will be very happy with. Theres only one Dream Team the rest is a 1 or 2 superstars and great role players. KT is not Duncan or KG, If they were here they would be the Number 1. I think between Peja and Bibby we have number 1's that can step up at any time. This team does not need another Super Star.

 

[Padrino]

yeah... thanks... now we have another thread gone completely off topic and is now dedicated to webber... lol...

there's a difference between bringing webber's name up in a discussion about peja stojakovic, and bringing him up in a discussion about PF's, specifically PF's who are playing and have formerly played with the kings. bringing up webber in a discussion about the former is irrelevant and inappropriate. bringing up webber in a discussion about the latter is very relevant and very appropriate.

 

[Kingsgurl]

The best defensive stat that I have seen to illustrate how well a team plays on that side of the ball is Opp. FG% This stat doesn't penalize a team for playing an up-tempo style on the offensive end, resulting in more possesions and higher scores. Slowing the game to a crawl on both ends is one way to play defense, but it IS possible to play defense AND still play an exciting style of ball. That team that Brick referenced did just that and did it exceptionally well. They either led the league or were second in FG% against and ranked top 5 in several other defensive categories (blocks, steals, etc.)


*ok, this post now makes absolutely no sense in the context of what is written above, but was in response to something that WAS there when I posted it.

 

[piksi]

I think you are right, I'm not sure about the sucking big time part, but I don't think he has the size or talent to be a number 1 option.

with all due respect - a team where KT would be #1 option - would NEVER make it out of the lottery. Again, any player that is intelligent enought to fit our system (KT is one of them) - will do well. That is the way the system is, that is the way thet RA is and that is the way the Kings are. Just look at the players that left us. Vast majority of them talk only positive about Sacramento Kings.

 

[SacTownKid]

with all due respect - a team where KT would be #1 option - would NEVER make it out of the lottery. Again, any player that is intelligent enought to fit our system (KT is one of them) - will do well. That is the way the system is, that is the way thet RA is and that is the way the Kings are. Just look at the players that left us. Vast majority of them talk only positive about Sacramento Kings.

To be quite honest do we have a number one option? Do we need a "number one option"? Can we trade to get a "number one option"? Even better why is the sky blue? Oh yeah, I forgot that one was discussed to death earlier in the season, scratch that one off.