Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
nbrans said:
Or that he averaged 11.3/6.6/1.6 in Philly. Apples and oranges, and you are again trying too hard to prove the unprovable.
Kenny, Corliss, and Skinner still here??
- Thread starter Elektrik
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Or that he averaged 11.3/6.6/1.6 in Philly. Apples and oranges, and you are again trying too hard to prove the unprovable.
nbrans
All-Star
Bricklayer said:
Goodness gracious, I wasn't trying to "prove something unprovable," I just thought it was interesting.
The Kings got more out of KT than the Sixers got out of Webber (compared to the beginning of their respective seasons). What does that mean? Who knows. We'll see if Webber's stats were inflated with the Kings or if KT just had something to prove at the end of last season. Time will tell, as it always does.
bigbadred00
Starter
Philly was 26-28 (48% = 40 wins) before the trade and 17-11 (60% = 50 win season) after the trade. Kings were 34-21 (66.6% = 54.6 wins) before the trade and 16-11 (49 win) after the trade. Although the Kings had a significant amount of injuries over that period of time in comparison to the Sixers. The trade was effective, yes Webber wasn't putting up 20/10/5 like he was in Sacto, the team played significantly better with him than Kenny. Webber improved the Sixers although their fans didn't really recognize that.
nbrans said:
At the risk of sounding condescending, I have to comment...
You seem to know a lot about basketball. How could you possibly make a statement like "We'll see if Webber's stats were inflated with the Kings"?
Webber's stats have been pretty consistent throughout his entire career. A point +/- notwithstanding, he's been close to 20/10/5 forever...
He was thrown into a team that played a completely different style of ball. The coach seemed to dislike Webb right from the beginning, and didn't give him much of an opportunity to get into the flow of things. In addition, he was trying to find his way on a team that already has a superstar.
I am confused. Chris Webber is one of the true elite players. Through circumstances no one could foresee or control, the decision was made to trade him. That trade in no way diminishes his contributions to the Kings - or any other team that will be lucky enough to have him. To say his stats might have been inflated with the Kings just smacks to me of either resentment or ignorance and I don't believe either to be the case.
KT, on the other hand, is an above average player who, for a variety of reasons, will never be the player Webber is/was. If he was, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
nbrans
All-Star
VF21 said:
As heretical as this might sound on a board where stats are gospel... stats don't always tell the whole story. They have their place, but there are stories between the numbers. Webber's stats didn't fall off that dramtically after his injury compared to his career average, but it was plain for everyone to see that he was not the same player, offensively or defensively.
In order for Webber to maintain his level of production statistically he had to become a different player. He got his points shooting the elbow jump shot and he had to dominate the ball. He could no longer get his points within the flow of the offense and he was no longer as effective of a facilitator. Remember when Bobby Jackson's mom said that Webber needed to get his butt in the post? That was BEFORE the injury. After he blew his knee Webber turned into a pure jump shooter.
I think you're absolutely right about some the reasons that Webber's stats probably dropped off in Philly. O'Brien didn't try and incorporate him, he was trying to find his way. But he also wasn't allowed to dominate the ball. Pre-injury Webber would have fond a way to help the team and score. He could have scored in the flow of the offense, or he could have posted up or he could have run the break. Post-injury Webber no longer had those tools, and he was exposed for no longer being a complete player.
So I think what I'm saying about Webber's "inflated" stats (and I'd only call them inflated post-injury) is that he had to play a different game post-injury that no longer involved his teammates as much (see Peja) and involved him dominating the ball in an offense based on motion. Yeah, he still put up his stats, but that doesn't mean he was the same player.
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He may not have been the same player, but he did not become a bad player. Even AV, who hates him with a passion unknown to mortal man, admitted that Webber's game was changing, maturing, etc. He still had basketball acumen most players could only dream of. He still had the hands and he could still draw defenders.
One more thing? Peja wasn't even playing a good part of the time last season before the trade. So saying that Webber played a game that didn't involve Peja is true but irrelevant. He played a game that also didn't involve Brent Price.
We will agree, apparently, to disagree. You have your opinion of Webber and I have mine and neither of us is going to change.
Have a nice day.
One more thing? Peja wasn't even playing a good part of the time last season before the trade. So saying that Webber played a game that didn't involve Peja is true but irrelevant. He played a game that also didn't involve Brent Price.
We will agree, apparently, to disagree. You have your opinion of Webber and I have mine and neither of us is going to change.
Have a nice day.
nbrans
All-Star
VF21 said:
Actually, I don't think we even have to agree to disagree because I pretty much agree with you.
I'm not saying Webber wasn't a good player anymore, clearly he was a very, very good player. I'd just say that his points were coming in a different fashion. And I think you're right that Peja wasn't playing well before or after the trade.
I do think that Webber wasn't the same player after the injury and that in order for the Kings to reopen that championship window they had to move on. So while I would never argue that Kenny Thomas is as good as Webber or anything like that I'm on the record saying it was a necessary, if painful trade.
You have a nice day as well.
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