Keegan "Keegan Murray" Murray

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Srzly

G-League
#121
#121
I appreciate the culture on this team of guys playing through injuries and wanting to be on the court, but I kind of wish the coaches would shut Keegan down until he is 100% and this back issue is fully behind him if there’s a chance playing on it is keeping it from fully healing.

He already spent the beginning of the season playing through a hand injury that clearly impacted his shot. Now the back injury keeps popping up.
 
C

Caccia

Starter
#122
#122
Srzly said:
I appreciate the culture on this team of guys playing through injuries and wanting to be on the court, but I kind of wish the coaches would shut Keegan down until he is 100% and this back issue is fully behind him if there’s a chance playing on it is keeping it from fully healing.

He already spent the beginning of the season playing through a hand injury that clearly impacted his shot. Now the back injury keeps popping up.
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Murray looked literally bent out of shape when he came out of the game the other night. And then the medical staff "cleared him to play."
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#125
#125
At what point can you begin classifying Keegan's struggles as a sophomore slump?

His defense is better this year, but his only truly impressive performances were against Curry and Donovan. Aside from those matchups, most of his defensive performances have been forgettable. He struggled in the matchups against Brandon Ingram and Dillon Brooks. The Kings have been trying to stick Keegan on shooters like Reaves, Klay, and Keldon Johnson, while largely avoiding giving him bigger wing/SF assignments.

Check out the defensive matchup differences between him and Barnes this year:
Keegan: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631099/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS
Barnes: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203084/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS

Comparing his general stats from this year to last year, Keegan hasn't had any type of noticeable jumps or improvements:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631099?PerMode=Per36
  • His net rating has worsened by 0.5. His def rtg has improved this year, but his offensive rtg has gone down equally as much.
Per 36 stats of rookie Keegan vs. Sophomore Keegan
  • 14.8pts 5.6rebs 1.5asts 0.9stls 0.6blks on 45.3/41.1/76.5
  • 14.5pts 6.6rebs 2.0asts 1.3stls 0.6blks on 39.4/29.8/85

He's been dealing with some injuries, but Keegan has really disappointed me with his ugly shooting slump and lack of offensive development. He has made absolutely 0 leaps as a scorer. Even worse, his shooting has completely gone cold and inconsistent. Keegan quite honestly might be worse this year than he was last year. I don't the defensive improvement has been worth anything else we're seeing, or perhaps, not seeing.

He's getting close to being labeled as having a sophmore slump for me. That 3pt shot looks off this year
 
S

Srzly

G-League
#126
#126
206Fan said:
At what point can you begin classifying Keegan's struggles as a sophomore slump?

His defense is better this year, but his only truly impressive performances were against Curry and Donovan. Aside from those matchups, most of his defensive performances have been forgettable. He struggled in the matchups against Brandon Ingram and Dillon Brooks. The Kings have been trying to stick Keegan on shooters like Reaves, Klay, and Keldon Johnson, while largely avoiding giving him bigger wing/SF assignments.

Check out the defensive matchup differences between him and Barnes this year:
Keegan: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631099/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS
Barnes: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203084/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS

Comparing his general stats from this year to last year, Keegan hasn't had any type of noticeable jumps or improvements:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631099?PerMode=Per36
  • His net rating has worsened by 0.5. His def rtg has improved this year, but his offensive rtg has gone down equally as much.
Per 36 stats of rookie Keegan vs. Sophomore Keegan
  • 14.8pts 5.6rebs 1.5asts 0.9stls 0.6blks on 45.3/41.1/76.5
  • 14.5pts 6.6rebs 2.0asts 1.3stls 0.6blks on 39.4/29.8/85

He's been dealing with some injuries, but Keegan has really disappointed me with his ugly shooting slump and lack of offensive development. He has made absolutely 0 leaps as a scorer. Even worse, his shooting has completely gone cold and inconsistent. Keegan quite honestly might be worse this year than he was last year. I don't the defensive improvement has been worth anything else we're seeing, or perhaps, not seeing.

He's getting close to being labeled as having a sophmore slump for me. That 3pt shot looks off this year
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I’m going to defend my guy Keegan a bit here…

He has played through a hand injury and is playing through a back injury that has him wrapping his back every time he is on the bench so it seems reasonable to expect worse 3 point shooting, but recently he shot 40% for 3 against Denver and 50% against the pelicans despite 2 of his 3s going in and out.

As for his defense, I strongly disagree that his only good performances were Mitchell and Curry… he has been great on defense almost every game. He even played great defense against Ingram but when you’re guarding the best player on the other team they will still find ways to score. He made his shots difficult and that’s what you ask for. Sometimes they still make the basket.

Despite missing multiple games he is still 2nd in rebounds and 2nd in steals.

Also, he has absolutely shown things on offense this year that he didn’t last year. Mike Brown said in his interview he doesn’t really run sets for Keegan and HB on offense.

I’m biased, but I think you are overly down on Keegan. Is he lighting up the box score? No, but he is playing winning basketball and the team is better when he is on the court and he is usually guarding the best player on the other team.
 
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C

Caccia

Starter
#127
#127
Srzly said:
I’m going to defend my guy Keegan a bit here…

He has played through a hand injury and is playing through a back injury that has him wrapping his back every time he is on the bench so it seems reasonable to expect worse 3 point shooting, but recently he shot 40% for 3 against Denver and 50% against the pelicans despite 2 of his 3s going in and out.

As for his defense, I strongly disagree that his only good performances were Mitchell and Curry… he has been great on defense almost every game. He even played great defense against Ingram but when you’re guarding the best player on the other team they will still find ways to score. He made his shots difficult and that’s what you ask for. Sometimes they still make the basket.

Despite missing multiple games he is still 2nd in rebounds and 2nd in steals.

Also, he has absolutely shown things on offense this year that he didn’t last year. Mike Brown said in his interview he doesn’t really run sets for Keegan and HB on offense.

I’m biased, but I think you are overly down on Keegan. Is he lighting up the box score? No, but he is playing winning basketball and the team is better when he is on the court and he is usually guarding the best player on the other team.
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I second those thoughts. The coaches have asked Keegan to become a true two-way player. We already know he can shoot the three. Right now, he is working on his defense. He did well against Ingram and also had a couple of good possessions last night guarding Devin Booker. Those are tough matchups.

He has a TS% of 50% a quarter of the way through the season, compared to 59.7% last season. He only has 20 free throw attempts, total. Those numbers will go up once he learns more about the defensive side of the game, guarding, as you say, the opponent's best player. Give the man time.
 
T

Turgenev

Starter
#129
#129
Re regression. Had a quick look at his shot types on NBA stats. Last year more than 60% of his shots were catch and shoot, this year it's 50% with more pull-ups and more shots close to the basket. He's taking more dribbles per shot and holding the ball for more longer. He's not hitting his shots at the same rate, clearly, but he has shown himself to be a capable shooter so I'm sure that will come. Defensively, his opponent is shooting 5% worse on 2 point attempts compared to last season. He wasn't going to go from rookie to 3rd star in 15 games + summer league but he's working.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#130
#130
Can't under sell just how impressive it is that Keegan has been given the task of guarding the best player on the opposing team, regardless of position 1-4. That is elite level defense.

It's rare that a player can play at an elite level on offense and defense. Ones that can aren't just superstars. They are HOFers.

That being said, Mike Brown asking him to exert that much energy on defense and demanding him to stay aggressive on offense means that Brown sees a star. If Brown used Keegan like last year, hide him on D and spot up on O, I'm sure Keegan would meet or exceed his offense from last year. His role is different now.

Being an effective defender is a much harder task in a league that gives the advantage to the offense. Between last year and this year, we can see Keegan can do both. We have a potential 2 way star folks. Gotta let Keegan settle in and find that balance.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#131
#131
Livinthedream said:
Can't under sell just how impressive it is that Keegan has been given the task of guarding the best player on the opposing team, regardless of position 1-4. That is elite level defense.

It's rare that a player can play at an elite level on offense and defense. Ones that can aren't just superstars. They are HOFers.

That being said, Mike Brown asking him to exert that much energy on defense and demanding him to stay aggressive on offense means that Brown sees a star. If Brown used Keegan like last year, hide him on D and spot up on O, I'm sure Keegan would meet or exceed his offense from last year. His role is different now.

Being an effective defender is a much harder task in a league that gives the advantage to the offense. Between last year and this year, we can see Keegan can do both. We have a potential 2 way star folks. Gotta let Keegan settle in and find that balance.
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Not necessarily true.
  • Utah: didn't guard Markkanen or Clarkson
  • Lakers: didn't guard Lebron or AD
  • Portland: didn't guard Grant nor Sharpe
  • Mavs: didn't guard Luka or Kyrie
Keegan has shown a lot more defensive versatility especially with stepping out in the perimeter, but he has not been tasked with guarding the best players on the opposing teams. He has not played at an elite level on either end of the floor. I think Keegan has made a clear jump on defense, but I'm not sold that it's as good as people are claiming. 13pts 6rebs 2asts and 1stl is not a superstar level nor anywhere near HOF.

I understand you're making future projections down the line, but he hasn't been able to be elite on any one side of the floor, let alone both sides. You're also admitting yourself that his defensive improvement has come at the expense of him shooting poorly. His jump in defense are not worth him shooting just 30% from 3pt. You bring up superstars and HOFers, but scoring is what makes them great above all else.

This team doesn't need a Cameron Johnson. We need Paul George. None of those 2-way stars (Kawhi, Butler, George, Lebron), have never scarified offense for defense, but they've all been better natural scorers.

An elite wing is the difference between fringe playoffs and contending teams. We need him to make that offensive jump more than being able to guard 35-year-old Steph in 1 game.
 
S

Srzly

G-League
#132
#132
I’m seem to recall him guarding multiple of those players you mention… obviously not AD.

I’d reserve judgement until he is healthy at least. The organization seems to feel very good about him.

Based on your analysis, we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
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hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#133
#133
206Fan said:
Not necessarily true.
  • Utah: didn't guard Markkanen or Clarkson
  • Lakers: didn't guard Lebron or AD
  • Portland: didn't guard Grant nor Sharpe
  • Mavs: didn't guard Luka or Kyrie
Keegan has shown a lot more defensive versatility especially with stepping out in the perimeter, but he has not been tasked with guarding the best players on the opposing teams. He has not played at an elite level on either end of the floor. I think Keegan has made a clear jump on defense, but I'm not sold that it's as good as people are claiming. 13pts 6rebs 2asts and 1stl is not a superstar level nor anywhere near HOF.

I understand you're making future projections down the line, but he hasn't been able to be elite on any one side of the floor, let alone both sides. You're also admitting yourself that his defensive improvement has come at the expense of him shooting poorly. His jump in defense are not worth him shooting just 30% from 3pt. You bring up superstars and HOFers, but scoring is what makes them great above all else.

This team doesn't need a Cameron Johnson. We need Paul George. None of those 2-way stars (Kawhi, Butler, George, Lebron), have never scarified offense for defense, but they've all been better natural scorers.

An elite wing is the difference between fringe playoffs and contending teams. We need him to make that offensive jump more than being able to guard 35-year-old Steph in 1 game.
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Lebron is obviously not a fair comparison for anyone but I don't see any evidence for Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, or Jimmy Butler being better "natural scorers" than Keegan Murray. Paul George averaged 12.1 PPG in his second season in the NBA. Kawhi Leonard averaged 11.9 PPG in his second season in the NBA. Jimmy Butler averaged 8.6 PPG in his second season in the NBA.

Or if you go back to college...

Paul George averaged 16.8 PPG in his Sophomore season at Fresno State before entering the draft. Kawhi Leonard averaged 15.5 PPG in in his Sophomore season at San Diego State before entering the draft. Jimmy Butler averaged 15.7 PPG in his Junior season at Marquette before entering the draft. Keegan Murray averaged 23.5 PPG in his Sophomore season at Iowa before entering the draft.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#134
#134
hrdboild said:
Lebron is obviously not a fair comparison for anyone but I don't see any evidence for Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, or Jimmy Butler being better "natural scorers" than Keegan Murray. Paul George averaged 12.1 PPG in his second season in the NBA. Kawhi Leonard averaged 11.9 PPG in his second season in the NBA. Jimmy Butler averaged 8.6 PPG in his second season in the NBA.

Or if you go back to college...

Paul George averaged 16.8 PPG in his Sophomore season at Fresno State before entering the draft. Kawhi Leonard averaged 15.5 PPG in in his Sophomore season at San Diego State before entering the draft. Jimmy Butler averaged 15.7 PPG in his Junior season at Marquette before entering the draft. Keegan Murray averaged 23.5 PPG in his Sophomore season at Iowa before entering the draft.
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They're better natural scorers because they don't rely on assisted FGs
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#135
#135
206Fan said:
They're better natural scorers because they don't rely on assisted FGs
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This is nonsense. First you argued that Keegan is not a go-to scorer because he's not scoring enough even though the guys you cited as counterpoints took even longer to get their scoring going in the NBA. You're now arguing that a guy who lead the NCAA in scoring as a Sophomore is not a natural scorer because he doesn't force up bad iso shots. We have two guys in the top 20 in APG so of course there are a lot of assisted baskets. That's just good offense.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#136
#136
hrdboild said:
This is nonsense. First you argued that Keegan is not a go-to scorer because he's not scoring enough even though the guys you cited as counterpoints took even longer to get their scoring going in the NBA. You're now arguing that a guy who lead the NCAA in scoring as a Sophomore is not a natural scorer because he doesn't force up bad iso shots. We have two guys in the top 20 in APG so of course there are a lot of assisted baskets. That's just good offense.
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the guys you cited as counterpoints took even longer to get their scoring going in the NBA
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  1. Scoring averages are up in the league today compared to a decade ago. There is a scoring inflation when comparing direct numbers
    1. in the 2011-2012 season, the average pts per game was 96.3pts. Last year it was 114.3pts.. nearly a 20pt jump
    2. 12pts a game in 2011 is not equal to 12pts a game in 2023
  2. Kawhi joined a contending Spurs team that won 61 games the year before Kawhi joined.

Paul George averaged 16.8 PPG in his Sophomore season at Fresno State before entering the draft. Kawhi Leonard averaged 15.5 PPG in in his Sophomore season at San Diego State before entering the draft. Jimmy Butler averaged 15.7 PPG in his Junior season at Marquette before entering the draft. Keegan Murray averaged 23.5 PPG in his Sophomore season at Iowa before entering the draft.
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  1. Both Paul George and Kawhi are younger than Keegan. Keegan started school 1 year late AND took an extra prep year to prepare for college. Kawhi was a 19-year-old Sophomore. Paul George was a 19-year-old Sopohomore. Keegan was a 21-year-old Sophomore. If you don't think that Keegan getting 2 years of basketball development before reaching college and the NBA made a difference, then I'm not sure what else to say regarding that.
Stating that George, Kawhi, and Butler are better natural scorers should not invoke any type of debate... homer glasses are on right now. You're talking about a rookie who put up 12pts a game on mostly catch and shoot shots... it's not crazy to suggest that the multi time all-stars score better than Keegan.
 
T

Turgenev

Starter
#138
#138
206Fan said:
it's not crazy to suggest that the multi time all-stars score better than Keegan.
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206Fan said:
I understand you're making future projections down the line ...
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I don't think anyone is claiming that Keegan, 15-ish games into his 2nd year, is ready to match Paul George etc. You seem to know this. So what is your point? That Keegan isn't good now or doesn't have the potential/ isn't likely to get to that level or something else?
 
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hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#140
#140
206Fan said:
You can't say I'm not fair when it comes to constructive criticism... I think I drank too much of the Keegan kool-aid in the offseason. I was expecting a much bigger year for him
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Let's wait and see. He did have back to back 20+ point games about a month ago before the back injury and he doesn't look like he's fully healthy yet.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#141
#141
206Fan said:
At what point can you begin classifying Keegan's struggles as a sophomore slump?

His defense is better this year, but his only truly impressive performances were against Curry and Donovan. Aside from those matchups, most of his defensive performances have been forgettable. He struggled in the matchups against Brandon Ingram and Dillon Brooks. The Kings have been trying to stick Keegan on shooters like Reaves, Klay, and Keldon Johnson, while largely avoiding giving him bigger wing/SF assignments.

Check out the defensive matchup differences between him and Barnes this year:
Keegan: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631099/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS
Barnes: https://www.nba.com/stats/player/203084/head-to-head?dir=D&sort=PARTIAL_POSS

Comparing his general stats from this year to last year, Keegan hasn't had any type of noticeable jumps or improvements:
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631099?PerMode=Per36
  • His net rating has worsened by 0.5. His def rtg has improved this year, but his offensive rtg has gone down equally as much.
Per 36 stats of rookie Keegan vs. Sophomore Keegan
  • 14.8pts 5.6rebs 1.5asts 0.9stls 0.6blks on 45.3/41.1/76.5
  • 14.5pts 6.6rebs 2.0asts 1.3stls 0.6blks on 39.4/29.8/85

He's been dealing with some injuries, but Keegan has really disappointed me with his ugly shooting slump and lack of offensive development. He has made absolutely 0 leaps as a scorer. Even worse, his shooting has completely gone cold and inconsistent. Keegan quite honestly might be worse this year than he was last year. I don't the defensive improvement has been worth anything else we're seeing, or perhaps, not seeing.

He's getting close to being labeled as having a sophmore slump for me. That 3pt shot looks off this year
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This is seriously underrating his defensive impact. Just watch the games how he jails elite perimeter players on a consistent basis. And just how our see defense falls off a cliff in the games he missed or when he's not out there.

The offense; sure. It's been rough, no denying that. But we've seen the flashes of how he gets to 20 PPG if/when his shot comes back. Just a matter of him putting all the parts together
 
iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

Hall of Famer
#142
#142
The_Jamal said:
The offense; sure. It's been rough, no denying that. But we've seen the flashes of how he gets to 20 PPG if/when his shot comes back. Just a matter of him putting all the parts together
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The Suns game should be his floor. even with going 1-7 from 3 he ended up with 13 points on 6-13 from the field. 2 more made threes and he has 19 points. That’s totally attainable.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#143
#143
Keegan is an interesting player right now. The more time that goes on it's starting to look like those Otto Porter comps were pretty much spot on. Difference being Keegan has MUCH better lateral mobility than Porter on his best day. Keegan being this teams Tayshaun Prince wasn't expected but I think if the Kings can land another legit scorer to take pressure of of Fox, Keegan as the 3 and D guy is exactly what you would want.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#144
#144
iowamcnabb said:
The Suns game should be his floor. even with going 1-7 from 3 he ended up with 13 points on 6-13 from the field. 2 more made threes and he has 19 points. That’s totally attainable.
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He's also very likely not 100% with the back injury and the hand injury. So I'm not going to freak out about a rough Nov (which btw he had last year too). He's up to 35% from 3 in his 3 December games so far (although still not good offensively), so that's starting to trend in the right direction.

Everything about his profile says to just stay patient and wait for him to figure out all the pieces at the same time. He showed us an elite movement/C&S spacer last year. He's shown us elite 1-4 versatile defense this year. And man, just through the eye-test, we freaking suck if he's not on the floor defensively. And probably around an average defense with him on. Almost a direct 50/50 split of Kings minutes this year where we're 5.7 points better with him on the floor (515 minutes) at a 113.4 DRtg vs a 119.1 DRtg (456 minutes) with him off. For some perspective, that team DRtg with him on would put us at 16th in the NBA. With him off, we'd be 27th.

You worry about the profile of a young guy like Davion; who showed real promise his rookie year, especially when he got the keys at the end of the season and he's just regressed since then. Not saying he'll bust out of the league, because his defense is too good that he'll stick around in a niche role, but he's very much verging as an end of bench/10th man sort of player because of his offense being unplayable.. If I were him and his camp, I'd be trying to get a trade to get a change of scenery before teams just give up on him.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#145
#145
206Fan said:
Not necessarily true.
  • Utah: didn't guard Markkanen or Clarkson
  • Lakers: didn't guard Lebron or AD
  • Portland: didn't guard Grant nor Sharpe
  • Mavs: didn't guard Luka or Kyrie
Keegan has shown a lot more defensive versatility especially with stepping out in the perimeter, but he has not been tasked with guarding the best players on the opposing teams. He has not played at an elite level on either end of the floor. I think Keegan has made a clear jump on defense, but I'm not sold that it's as good as people are claiming. 13pts 6rebs 2asts and 1stl is not a superstar level nor anywhere near HOF.

I understand you're making future projections down the line, but he hasn't been able to be elite on any one side of the floor, let alone both sides. You're also admitting yourself that his defensive improvement has come at the expense of him shooting poorly. His jump in defense are not worth him shooting just 30% from 3pt. You bring up superstars and HOFers, but scoring is what makes them great above all else.

This team doesn't need a Cameron Johnson. We need Paul George. None of those 2-way stars (Kawhi, Butler, George, Lebron), have never scarified offense for defense, but they've all been better natural scorers.

An elite wing is the difference between fringe playoffs and contending teams. We need him to make that offensive jump more than being able to guard 35-year-old Steph in 1 game.
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We don't agree on what we see from Keegan on defense and that's ok. Agree to disagree.

As far as future projections, I was specific in saying potential 2 way star. That's based on the way Mike Brown is approaching Keegan's development. In no way did I insinuate that Keegan would be a superstar or a HOFer.

Fox's leadership, strength, shooting, commitment to defense, etc were all in question for 5 straight years. So it doesn't bother me to see a 2nd year player not yet be perfect.
 
PorchSurfin

PorchSurfin

Starter
#147
#147
206Fan said:
Not necessarily true.
  • Utah: didn't guard Markkanen or Clarkson
  • Lakers: didn't guard Lebron or AD
  • Portland: didn't guard Grant nor Sharpe
  • Mavs: didn't guard Luka or Kyrie
Keegan has shown a lot more defensive versatility especially with stepping out in the perimeter, but he has not been tasked with guarding the best players on the opposing teams. He has not played at an elite level on either end of the floor. I think Keegan has made a clear jump on defense, but I'm not sold that it's as good as people are claiming. 13pts 6rebs 2asts and 1stl is not a superstar level nor anywhere near HOF.

I understand you're making future projections down the line, but he hasn't been able to be elite on any one side of the floor, let alone both sides. You're also admitting yourself that his defensive improvement has come at the expense of him shooting poorly. His jump in defense are not worth him shooting just 30% from 3pt. You bring up superstars and HOFers, but scoring is what makes them great above all else.

This team doesn't need a Cameron Johnson. We need Paul George. None of those 2-way stars (Kawhi, Butler, George, Lebron), have never scarified offense for defense, but they've all been better natural scorers.

An elite wing is the difference between fringe playoffs and contending teams. We need him to make that offensive jump more than being able to guard 35-year-old Steph in 1 game.
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You might wanna double check what Paul George's stats were his second year in the league Mr. Gun Jumper lol.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#148
#148
I'm rooting for Keegan as hard as anyone but he has not been a good player this year. He's been below average, despite having a handful of good defensive performances. Hopefully he heals up and turns it around soon.
 
S

Srzly

G-League
#149
#149
ESP47 said:
I'm rooting for Keegan as hard as anyone but he has not been a good player this year. He's been below average, despite having a handful of good defensive performances. Hopefully he heals up and turns it around soon.
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What about his play makes you think he hasn’t been a good player?
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#150
#150
Srzly said:
What about his play makes you think he hasn’t been a good player?
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He's been very inefficient. His shooting percentages are like a hundred points a piece below where they should be. Advanced stats have him rated low as well. It's not my opinion or some sort of hot take. He just has not been nearly as good as he was as a rookie despite his uptick in defensive performance against a few teams this year.
 
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