Keegan “KEEGAN MURRAY” Murray

KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#151
#151
funkykingston said:
I'm biased toward Keegan, but I don't think it's a crazy statement to make. Right now Williams and Murray look like the 3rd & 4th players from that draft. Their stats are very close (Keegan is better from outside, Williams gets into the paint and scores more easily and offers more as a playmaker) but they aren't worlds apart. But Keegan expanding his offensive game while also turning into a defensive stud is why I'd definitely take him.
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Right, I get it. Don't get me wrong, Williams is a good player. But in terms of "all-around" talent on both ends, I don't think it's that close.

While Williams has a large wingspan for a 6-5 player, Keegan has prototypical wing size and because of that seemingly has a much higher upside on the defensive end. Also, Keegan's untapped post up abilities and evolving skillset as a penetrator/scorer to go along with his upper-level perimeter shooting makes him the clear choice IMO.

TBH, if Keegan continues to improve as he has, I think one day people might be asking why Chet and possibly Banchero went before him. He's got a lot of work to do, but the potential is there.

It's taken Swipa a while, but I think many would concede that he's surpassed Donovan Mitchell and Bam Adebayo as the clear #2 player from the 2017 draft and is narrowing the gap on Tatum for the top spot. I believe Keegan is capable of doing the same in his draft class.
 
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pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#152
#152
funkykingston said:
I'm biased toward Keegan, but I don't think it's a crazy statement to make. Right now Williams and Murray look like the 3rd & 4th players from that draft. Their stats are very close (Keegan is better from outside, Williams gets into the paint and scores more easily and offers more as a playmaker) but they aren't worlds apart. But Keegan expanding his offensive game while also turning into a defensive stud is why I'd definitely take him.
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It might not be crazy to make in this snapshot in time but the fact is there was a clear top 5 (or a top 4, in which many elected to exclude Keegan). I don't think Williams was in the next crop step down of guys that was Benn and Sharpe who also seemed to be the next 2 no matter where.

You can always find someone that dramatically over improves on their draft position but it is rare that they were actually warranted being picked top 5 on draft day. Haliburton was maybe one that a lot of people had as top 4 that slid to us at 12.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#153
#153
pdxKingsFan said:
Haliburton was maybe one that a lot of people had as top 4 that slid to us at 12.
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Yeah, Hali is a much more egregious example than Jalen Williams. How the hell that kid dropped all the way to 12 astounds me. I know his shot looks "funky" but still. He was such an high IQ player and facilitator with size.

It still makes little sense.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#154
#154
KingsFanSince85 said:
Yeah, Hali is a much more egregious example than Jalen Williams. How the hell that kid dropped all the way to 12 astounds me. I know his shot looks "funky" but still. He was such an high IQ player and facilitator with size.

It still makes little sense.
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I think its possible GMs got fired for passing over Hali but I think a GM that reached on Jalen Williams and missed would also get fired.

Probably nobody getting fired if Chet and Jabari don't wind up top 5 in their class 4 years from now.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#155
#155
pdxKingsFan said:
It might not be crazy to make in this snapshot in time but the fact is there was a clear top 5 (or a top 4, in which many elected to exclude Keegan). I don't think Williams was in the next crop step down of guys that was Benn and Sharpe who also seemed to be the next 2 no matter where.

You can always find someone that dramatically over improves on their draft position but it is rare that they were actually warranted being picked top 5 on draft day. Haliburton was maybe one that a lot of people had as top 4 that slid to us at 12.
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Right, no one (that I know of) had Williams top.5 or even top 8. He actually made a big climb up (based on where he was mocked before the draft process) to go as high as he did.

I didn't hear the conversation in question. If it really was an argument that the Rockets or Kings should've actually know Williams would be this good and taken him in thebfraft, then I agree it's a dumb one.

Think about how most of the basketball media dumped on the Kings for taking Murray over Ivey. It would've been 10x worse had they taken Williams at #4.

But if the conversation was about ranking the players from that draft or doing a "redraft" with the gift of hindsight, then I agree that Murray and Williams (in one order or the other) are likely #3 and #4.

The same way if you look back you can say that Shai "should've" gone #2 or #3 in 2018 when in reality no one was actually going to draft him that high. Or that Ayton probably "shouldve" gone around #5 or #6 when he was almost certainly going to be taken by any team at either #1 or #2 in that draft.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#156
#156
Williams and Keegan are two totally different players. Keegan is still largely a system guy, not even factoring on the iso stat charts but the impact is tremendous next to a player like Fox, Williams is on the upper end in creating his own offense. With Keegans defense and shooting, that makes him an ultimate 3 and D guy, Williams is a run the offense type.
 
GWD

GWD

Bench
#158
#158
OK, we know Keegan is a very good, maybe eventually great, defender. We know Keegan can be outstanding on offense. We also know that Coach Brown values defense above all. But this combination hurts Keegan and the Kings in the game's long run.

Keegan often gets assigned to the opposing team's best player/scorer. It is usually a smaller and quicker guard/forward. This results in fouls that bench Keegan early in the game (with the refs help). The cost is the loss of Keegan's offense and development of a rhythm that he acknowledges he feels and needs. Additionally, defense can't be played from the bench.

The solution is to assign Keegan to a weaker forward to preserve his offense. There will still be switches where his defense will shine and maybe a foul or two but he will be far less susceptible to the ticky-tack calls that take him out of the game.

The goal is to keep Keegan on the court not just for his offensive prowess but also for his defense when required. The ramification is to afford another prime defender, perhaps a Kessler Edwards-type, a role as "star-stopper" in place of a current starter. There still will be three main scorers on the floor with the defense Brown so admires.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#159
#159
GWD said:
OK, we know Keegan is a very good, maybe eventually great, defender. We know Keegan can be outstanding on offense. We also know that Coach Brown values defense above all. But this combination hurts Keegan and the Kings in the game's long run.

Keegan often gets assigned to the opposing team's best player/scorer. It is usually a smaller and quicker guard/forward. This results in fouls that bench Keegan early in the game (with the refs help). The cost is the loss of Keegan's offense and development of a rhythm that he acknowledges he feels and needs. Additionally, defense can't be played from the bench.

The solution is to assign Keegan to a weaker forward to preserve his offense. There will still be switches where his defense will shine and maybe a foul or two but he will be far less susceptible to the ticky-tack calls that take him out of the game.

The goal is to keep Keegan on the court not just for his offensive prowess but also for his defense when required. The ramification is to afford another prime defender, perhaps a Kessler Edwards-type, a role as "star-stopper" in place of a current starter. There still will be three main scorers on the floor with the defense Brown so admires.
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You make some good points here. I don't know if it would make the Kings better or not but it's an interesting thought.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#160
#160
GWD said:
OK, we know Keegan is a very good, maybe eventually great, defender. We know Keegan can be outstanding on offense. We also know that Coach Brown values defense above all. But this combination hurts Keegan and the Kings in the game's long run.

Keegan often gets assigned to the opposing team's best player/scorer. It is usually a smaller and quicker guard/forward. This results in fouls that bench Keegan early in the game (with the refs help). The cost is the loss of Keegan's offense and development of a rhythm that he acknowledges he feels and needs. Additionally, defense can't be played from the bench.

The solution is to assign Keegan to a weaker forward to preserve his offense. There will still be switches where his defense will shine and maybe a foul or two but he will be far less susceptible to the ticky-tack calls that take him out of the game.

The goal is to keep Keegan on the court not just for his offensive prowess but also for his defense when required. The ramification is to afford another prime defender, perhaps a Kessler Edwards-type, a role as "star-stopper" in place of a current starter. There still will be three main scorers on the floor with the defense Brown so admires.
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It's definitely something that needs to be looked at. Keeping in mind that Brown started last season with this exact strategy, having KZ Okpala in this role. Edwards can step into that spot, if Brown is willing to play him and not get frustrated when he doesn't put up offensive numbers.

Speaking of Okpala, he has a better shooting stroke than Edwards and is a great defender. Why he couldn't find a spot in the NBA is a mystery to me. I wish we still had him
 
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Vinny Basketballerino

Vinny Basketballerino

Starter
#161
#161
pdxKingsFan said:
I think its possible GMs got fired for passing over Hali but I think a GM that reached on Jalen Williams and missed would also get fired.

Probably nobody getting fired if Chet and Jabari don't wind up top 5 in their class 4 years from now.
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There's a saying in the business world: "Nobody gets fired for going with IBM". Meaning if you're looking for a vendor to contract with and you're choosing between a small upstart company that may provide a unique solution... or IBM... you can choose IBM and even if it is suboptimal you'll keep your job.
 
GWD

GWD

Bench
#162
#162
ShastaKingsFan said:
It's definitely something that needs to be looked at. Keeping in mind that Brown started last season with this exact strategy, having KZ Okpala in this role. Edwards can step into that spot, if Brown is willing to play him and not get frustrated when he doesn't put up offensive numbers.

Speaking of Okpala, he has a better shooting stroke than Edwards and is a great defender. Why he couldn't find a spot in the NBA is a mystery to me. I wish we still had him
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Subsequently, there have been individual developments and roster changes that have made it reasonable to give the "stopper" strategy another try. Think Edwards, Duarte, Jones, Ellis, Mitchell, and even Lyles in some cases. Send one of them out there, depending on the match-up, with the knowledge that fouls will come with aggressive defense. Then rotate another player in when the fouls add up or the match-up is not optimal. Additionally, those players will have court time to prove themselves rather than playing little or not at all.

Although that methodology would cause free-throws it would additionally result in frustration of the opposing star. Maybe enough annoyance to throw him off his game.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#163
#163
GWD said:
Subsequently, there have been individual developments and roster changes that have made it reasonable to give the "stopper" strategy another try. Think Edwards, Duarte, Jones, Ellis, Mitchell, and even Lyles in some cases. Send one of them out there, depending on the match-up, with the knowledge that fouls will come with aggressive defense. Then rotate another player in when the fouls add up or the match-up is not optimal. Additionally, those players will have court time to prove themselves rather than playing little or not at all.

Although that methodology would cause free-throws it would additionally result in frustration of the opposing star. Maybe enough annoyance to throw him off his game.
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Agree. Sometimes I think Brown subconsciously makes players reluctant to make mistakes, with his constant emphasis of playing good defense without fouling. Sure, dumb fouls are one thing, but defensive role players picking up fouls through the course of playing hard defense is part of the deal. In most cases you have to give something, in order to gain something else.

If Kessler Edwards went out there and picked up 4 fouls during a game, while playing some of the lock down defense that he is capable of, I wouldn't have a problem with that at all
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#164
#164
GWD said:
OK, we know Keegan is a very good, maybe eventually great, defender. We know Keegan can be outstanding on offense. We also know that Coach Brown values defense above all. But this combination hurts Keegan and the Kings in the game's long run.

Keegan often gets assigned to the opposing team's best player/scorer. It is usually a smaller and quicker guard/forward. This results in fouls that bench Keegan early in the game (with the refs help). The cost is the loss of Keegan's offense and development of a rhythm that he acknowledges he feels and needs. Additionally, defense can't be played from the bench.

The solution is to assign Keegan to a weaker forward to preserve his offense. There will still be switches where his defense will shine and maybe a foul or two but he will be far less susceptible to the ticky-tack calls that take him out of the game.

The goal is to keep Keegan on the court not just for his offensive prowess but also for his defense when required. The ramification is to afford another prime defender, perhaps a Kessler Edwards-type, a role as "star-stopper" in place of a current starter. There still will be three main scorers on the floor with the defense Brown so admires.
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Counterpoint: let the kid cook. His offense will come and go while he's still getting used to his new role, but once he acclimates to his expanded usage, the consistent scoring will return.
 
GWD

GWD

Bench
#167
#167
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Counterpoint: let the kid cook. His offense will come and go while he's still getting used to his new role, but once he acclimates to his expanded usage, the consistent scoring will return.
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Uh, the point of my post(s) is that Keegan has to be on the floor. There is no "cooking" while sitting on the bench in foul trouble.
 
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GWD

GWD

Bench
#178
#178
Just imagine what Keegan could have individually accomplished if he hadn't had to sit out most of the first half with foul issues. Keegan is BIG entertainment...not so much when benched. Coach Brown needs to figure out ways to keep him on the floor.

But getting a win is the bottom line.
 
gunks

gunks

Hall of Famer
#180
#180
Tetsujin said:
https://twitter.com/statuses/1738445323155259803

Keegan hit his typical catch and shoot threes tonight but those self-created step back/pull-up threes at his size are special. There are a handful of guys who can hit those consistently at his size and they’re pretty much all all-stars.
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Domas half-assing the "I passed it to the open elite 3pt shooter I'm gonna no look walk back on defense for swag" move killed me. The way he changes his mind and looks over his shoulder just in case there's a rebound to go for.
 
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