kb02 can't stop making everything about Fox (split from the Mike Brown thread)

#61
I see very, very few (if any) people on this forum saying Fox is a superstar. Most acknowledge he's a borderline all-star level player that needs to seriously improve his defense and outside shot.

That doesn't stop kb02 and his #1 fan serbiangoat from piling on him at every possible chance, even when he's not a part of the discussion. Give it a rest, it's pathetic. Fox is far from perfect but he's a good player and loyal to Sacramento, he is not the reason we are losing even if he can improve his game to better help us become a winning franchise.

The constant scapegoating and delusional pretence of being the only objective commentators is nauseous.
 
#62
I see very, very few (if any) people on this forum saying Fox is a superstar. Most acknowledge he's a borderline all-star level player that needs to seriously improve his defense and outside shot.

That doesn't stop kb02 and his #1 fan serbiangoat from piling on him at every possible chance, even when he's not a part of the discussion. Give it a rest, it's pathetic. Fox is far from perfect but he's a good player and loyal to Sacramento, he is not the reason we are losing even if he can improve his game to better help us become a winning franchise.

The constant scapegoating and delusional pretence of being the only objective commentators is nauseous.
As expected, from my #1 fan.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#63
Because that's his prime, Mo Williams was not expected to even be a starter or even a NBA player at any point coming into the NBA he was the 47th pick meaning he had way less opportunity until someone (was It TJ Ford?) luckily for him got injured. Fox was touted as a Allstar player and was hyped so off course he's going to have a better start to his career. (raw stats wise) Williams during his prime was a average starting PG like Fox is now I don't get why people are insulted if someone says Mo Williams during certain seasons was as good or better than Fox.
Because he wasn't. And that's not even a defense of Fox, that's being honest about Mo Williams. And if you have to cherry pick seasons in order to make your point, then you don't have a point. Why are you comparing Williams' "prime" to Fox, who has not yet entered his prime?
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#64
Second, the link that compares Williams to Fox is for their entire careers, which is normalized in the advanced and some of the “per” sections. So his Milwaukee years and his twilight years were accounted for. But, of course, this fact doesn’t fit your narrative, so you choose to carry on about Lebron and Jameer Nelson.
I don't know what link you're referring to, but you appear to be no-selling @Capt. Factorial's post, where he pointed out that, when you compare Williams' first five seasons to Fox's first five seasons, the numbers don't favor Williams, not even the only two stats that "tend to matter," according to you. That's not his "entire career," that's comparing first five seasons to first five seasons.
But, of course, this fact doesn’t fit your narrative, so you choose to carry on about Lebron and Jameer Nelson "prime."
Third, Williams made the all star team at the age of 26. Your superstar PG is turning 26 this year...
Nitpick: Fox is not my superstar point guard. I don't root for the Kings, and I don't have any emotional investment in whether he reaches his potential or not. I just don't appreciate you not owning your hate. At least I have the integrity to admit when I'm hating on a player. The worst kind of people in sports fandom are the ones who try to hide their hate behind a veneer of "objectivity," as if the rest of us can't see it for what it is.

If Fox is as good as Williams, he should make the all star team this year.
Based on the throughline of Williams' career, it feels like it would be more accurate to say, "If Sabonis is as good as LeBron..." If the Kings are in playoff contention at the All-Star break, De'Aaron Fox will most likely be an All-Star. Will the Kings be in playoff contention at the All-Star break? Don't know, and don't care.
 

Capt. Factorial

Trade Rumors = 0.00 Bits Of Information
Staff member
#65
I don't know what link you're referring to, but you appear to be no-selling @Capt. Factorial's post, where he pointed out that, when you compare Williams' first five seasons to Fox's first five seasons, the numbers don't favor Williams, not even the only two stats that "tend to matter," according to you. That's not his "entire career," that's comparing first five seasons to first five seasons.
To be precise, my post compared Williams' seasons 1-4 with Fox's seasons 2-5 because that's the longest age-matched period we have.

However, if we were to do seasons 1-5 for both instead, the same general result obtains with Fox beating out Williams on the advanced stats, but the margin tends to be smaller because Fox's rookie season as a 20-year-old was not as good as Williams' 5th season as a 25-year-old.
 
#66
To be precise, my post compared Williams' seasons 1-4 with Fox's seasons 2-5 because that's the longest age-matched period we have.

However, if we were to do seasons 1-5 for both instead, the same general result obtains with Fox beating out Williams on the advanced stats, but the margin tends to be smaller because Fox's rookie season as a 20-year-old was not as good as Williams' 5th season as a 25-year-old.
The career stats also rope in Williams' twilight years, especially his last year where he fell off a cliff. And while Fox is entering year 6, there's no guarantee that he'll continue to ascend (he certainly did jump a level last year) nor any guarantees that he'll play another 7 years to match Williams' 12 year career. When its all done, longevity matters--Brandon Roy, Penny Hardaway...would be first ballot hall famers, if they had longer careers. Though, for the sake of our convo, the only ones that matter are their prime years. I stand by my view, Williams had as much if not more value than Fox in their primes. Fox, who is in his prime now, can prove me wrong and run off 5 years of all star appearances. Though I'm doubtful. Very doubtful.
 
#67
They overvalue Fox and will defend him until he’s no longer a King. Once he’s gone, criticizing him won’t be sacrilege.
They value and support the starting point guard while he’s a king and don’t show the same support when he’s on a different team? The audacity of this kings fan forum. How dare you. Apparently the whole point of being a fan is to hate or nit pick your team and praise other teams players. Makes total sense.
 
#68
They value and support the starting point guard while he’s a king and don’t show the same support when he’s on a different team? The audacity of this kings fan forum. How dare you. Apparently the whole point of being a fan is to hate or nit pick your team and praise other teams players. Makes total sense.
No part of my statement implies the bolded part above.

It's normal to nitpick players on your own team and to overrate them simply because most fans don't watch other teams enough to know exactly how good their current players are relative to the rest of the league. As for me, I've never liked the way Fox runs a team. There is only way to win with Fox and I don't think it's worth going that way--think the AI, Russ anchored teams where everything is built around them.
 
#69
No part of my statement implies the bolded part above.

It's normal to nitpick players on your own team and to overrate them simply because most fans don't watch other teams enough to know exactly how good their current players are relative to the rest of the league. As for me, I've never liked the way Fox runs a team. There is only way to win with Fox and I don't think it's worth going that way--think the AI, Russ anchored teams where everything is built around them.
We got people here touting the works of Mo f’n Williams. If that’s not praising other teams players I dunno what is. We’re not only comparing him to people now, but using role players from like a decade ago?
 
#70
We got people here touting the works of Mo f’n Williams. If that’s not praising other teams players I dunno what is. We’re not only comparing him to people now, but using role players from like a decade ago?
Mo Williams was a very good player in his prime. Because he wasn't elite, people forget how good he was. Contextually, what sparked this convo between Fox and Williams was that tweet about how Brown and Lebron won 66 games with only Ilgauskas, West, Varejao, and Williams. Implying the non-Lebron players sucked. West would command 15M a year today as a shooter, who also had decent handles. Varejao would net a mid first as a bouncy 4/5. Ilgauskas wasn't quite Vlade, but he was damn good. About as good as Valincuinas is today, but with diff type of impact on the game. And Williams provided well rounded above average guard play, leading to one all star appearance.
 
#71
Mo Williams was a very good player in his prime. Because he wasn't elite, people forget how good he was. Contextually, what sparked this convo between Fox and Williams was that tweet about how Brown and Lebron won 66 games with only Ilgauskas, West, Varejao, and Williams. Implying the non-Lebron players sucked. West would command 15M a year today as a shooter, who also had decent handles. Varejao would net a mid first as a bouncy 4/5. Ilgauskas wasn't quite Vlade, but he was damn good. About as good as Valincuinas is today, but with diff type of impact on the game. And Williams provided well rounded above average guard play, leading to one all star appearance.
Do you think he’s better than fox? Not style, not fit, as a player. Do you think he’s better than fox or in the same league?
 
#72
Do you think he’s better than fox? Not style, not fit, as a player. Do you think he’s better than fox or in the same league?
In their primes, I think they're in the same tier. Individual, physical talent? Fox. Playing winning ball, defending, and doing the little things to win? Williams.
 
#73
If Fox was on a winning team with consistent coaching I don't even think we'd have this conversation. We've seen what he can do with the effort in spurts, it happened in a game against Memphis early in his career. It happens whenever he matches up with Lonzo since he has some desire to prove he should have been picked ahead of him. Let's revisit next year after a year of Brown and see if he's still slack on defense. If he is I imagine he may be on another team. Physical talent is there to make this a moot conversation in a year that matters.
 
#75
I see very, very few (if any) people on this forum saying Fox is a superstar. Most acknowledge he's a borderline all-star level player that needs to seriously improve his defense and outside shot.

That doesn't stop kb02 and his #1 fan serbiangoat from piling on him at every possible chance, even when he's not a part of the discussion. Give it a rest, it's pathetic. Fox is far from perfect but he's a good player and loyal to Sacramento, he is not the reason we are losing even if he can improve his game to better help us become a winning franchise.

The constant scapegoating and delusional pretence of being the only objective commentators is nauseous.
I don't see how it's piling on him for me to say he's a average starting PG (the hardest position to be average at), that's a massive feat for any human being/basketball player. But being a average PG while making max money means he is a massive part of the reason why the Kings are losing. The same people accusing me and kb02 of scapegoating are the same ones who were scapegoating Luke Walton (Gentry was as bad/worse) and every coach in recent times except for Malone in season 2 (had a overall 36% while here).
 
#76
I don't see how it's piling on him for me to say he's a average starting PG (the hardest position to be average at), that's a massive feat for any human being/basketball player. But being a average PG while making max money means he is a massive part of the reason why the Kings are losing. The same people accusing me and kb02 of scapegoating are the same ones who were scapegoating Luke Walton (Gentry was as bad/worse) and every coach in recent times except for Malone in season 2 (had a overall 36% while here).
Average point guard? Which currently playing NBA point guard do you think he is most equal to?
 
#78
Average point guard? Which currently playing NBA point guard do you think he is most equal to?
Same tier as Rozier/Lonzo/Brunson (minus KP)/Dimwiddie (healthy)/Haliburton/Tyus Jones/Monte Morris/Maxey and Brogdan (has really regressed due to injury lately but was much better imo than Fox 2 years ago). Obviously Fox stats are better due to his role on the Kings but in terms of impact on winning all those guys are around the same imo.

Hard to compare since other than Westbrook and SGA no other PG's are putting up massive stats on poorly performing teams
 
#79
I’ve scanned through this thread and while the main antagonist is hidden from my view I can clearly glean who it’s about (thread title give away) and the nonsense being peddled.

The one thing I’ll say is anybody citing a player being named to “all-star teams” as evidence of anything not only doesn’t understand a damn thing — they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Citing subjective awards largely influenced by things such as team success and name recognition is among the worst sports arguments I’ve ever heard or read.

There’s good reason that particular person ended up on so many ignore lists.
 
#80
I’ve scanned through this thread and while the main antagonist is hidden from my view I can clearly glean who it’s about (thread title give away) and the nonsense being peddled.

The one thing I’ll say is anybody citing a player being named to “all-star teams” as evidence of anything not only doesn’t understand a damn thing — they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Citing subjective awards largely influenced by things such as team success and name recognition is among the worst sports arguments I’ve ever heard or read.

There’s good reason that particular person ended up on so many ignore lists.
When a poster goes out of his way to act like he doesn't care about another poster's opinion, but really, really, really cares. We all know you can see who the response is to on the replies, so even if you've ignored someone, if CF responds to me, you can see who he's responding to. Citing the title is just trying hide your love just a little too much, buddy. Just lolzzzzzz.
 
#81
Same tier as Rozier/Lonzo/Brunson (minus KP)/Dimwiddie (healthy)/Haliburton/Tyus Jones/Monte Morris/Maxey and Brogdan (has really regressed due to injury lately but was much better imo than Fox 2 years ago). Obviously Fox stats are better due to his role on the Kings but in terms of impact on winning all those guys are around the same imo.

Hard to compare since other than Westbrook and SGA no other PG's are putting up massive stats on poorly performing teams
Im interested in the part of what you said that is in bold. How have you measured this impact? I am not trying to lead you into anything, I would just like to know how you have evaluated the part that is in bold.
 
#82
Im interested in the part of what you said that is in bold. How have you measured this impact? I am not trying to lead you into anything, I would just like to know how you have evaluated the part that is in bold.
Interested in that answer too.

In the meantime, let's compare two guards through their first five seasons.

Guard A's first five seasons: 22.5 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.7 apg, 3.3 tov, .448 FG%, .505 eFG%. ORtg 108, DRtg 115, PER of 17.1, VORP 5.3

Guard B's first five seasons: 19.1 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 6.2 apg, 2.8 tov, .462 FG%, .499 eFG%, ORtg 108, DRtg 114. PER of 17.5, VORP 5.4

Guard A's team had a winning percentage of 0.302 his first five seasons.
Guard B's team had a winning percentage of .405 his first five seasons.

Clearly both of these players are just putting up stats on bad teams and neither has any impact in terms of winning.

Yet, Guard A finished 4th in MVP voting this year and his team had the best record in the NBA.

It's almost as if Fox would have more success with a better team around him . . .
 
#85
I’ve scanned through this thread and while the main antagonist is hidden from my view I can clearly glean who it’s about (thread title give away) and the nonsense being peddled.

The one thing I’ll say is anybody citing a player being named to “all-star teams” as evidence of anything not only doesn’t understand a damn thing — they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Citing subjective awards largely influenced by things such as team success and name recognition is among the worst sports arguments I’ve ever heard or read.

There’s good reason that particular person ended up on so many ignore lists.
This is so funny, I had to unignore someone just to read through it all.
 
#86
This thread has served at least one purpose. Made it easier for me to identify members, who are just pure trolls vs those who I may not agree with, but at least respect, and will continue having convos with. The trolls are now on my ignore list, but it's not like I won't be able to read your posts. We all know you can read every post when you're not logged in, geniuses. Posts go on ignore only when you log in. Saying you unignored someone to read comments is just self identifying yourself as someone who's trying just a little too hard to troll. Less is more, buddy.
 
#87
I’ve scanned through this thread and while the main antagonist is hidden from my view I can clearly glean who it’s about (thread title give away) and the nonsense being peddled.

The one thing I’ll say is anybody citing a player being named to “all-star teams” as evidence of anything not only doesn’t understand a damn thing — they don’t deserve to be taken seriously.

Citing subjective awards largely influenced by things such as team success and name recognition is among the worst sports arguments I’ve ever heard or read.


There’s good reason that particular person ended up on so many ignore lists.
Don’t forget being added to the list due to injuries. So and so is a 1 time allstar but don’t mention that he was a alternate possibly due to multiple injuries that year and if it were not for 1 or 2 players at his specific positions getting hurt he would be a 0 time allstar and the whole argument would have no basis.
 
#88
This thread has served at least one purpose. Made it easier for me to identify members, who are just pure trolls vs those who I may not agree with, but at least respect, and will continue having convos with. The trolls are now on my ignore list, but it's not like I won't be able to read your posts. We all know you can read every post when you're not logged in, geniuses. Posts go on ignore only when you log in. Saying you unignored someone to read comments is just self identifying yourself as someone who's trying just a little too hard to troll. Less is more, buddy.
Oh it's actually easier than that, there is a button even when you are logged in and ignoring someone, "see ignored posts".

But I digress... keep movin' I am having a blast reading the first 3 pages so far.
 
#90
I see very, very few (if any) people on this forum saying Fox is a superstar. Most acknowledge he's a borderline all-star level player that needs to seriously improve his defense and outside shot.

That doesn't stop kb02 and his #1 fan serbiangoat from piling on him at every possible chance, even when he's not a part of the discussion. Give it a rest, it's pathetic. Fox is far from perfect but he's a good player and loyal to Sacramento, he is not the reason we are losing even if he can improve his game to better help us become a winning franchise.

The constant scapegoating and delusional pretence of being the only objective commentators is nauseous.
I disagree. By the level of excitement that I see in some of the posts in this thread against kb02 and serbiangoat, I think that there are a lot of people that believe that Fox is a superstar.

Obviously, Fox is not a superstar. But ironically, he is the main reason why we didn't draft a true superstar when we had the chance (Doncic).