kb02 can't stop making everything about Fox (split from the Mike Brown thread)
- Thread starter kb02
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Assuming we don't trade back, (still wouldn't be too happy with Tyty at like 13-15, but it's more acceptable he's BPA there), TyTy or Duren in the top 9 would be the biggest misstep of his GM career. Neither guy has a case for BPA in the top 8 and we're a far more established roster now than we were last season where I think *some* consideration for how they fit with Fox/Sabonis should matter.
Had similar feelings. Never really made sense why he was one of the top guards on anyone's board. Seems more like an undersized 2 than a guy with actual PG skills to me. Doesn't really pop in any one aspect.
I think people might be overrating the "Kentucky guard struggles in college but then pops in the NBA" narrative that Herro/Booker/Maxey have gone through in recent years.
I think people might be overrating the "Kentucky guard struggles in college but then pops in the NBA" narrative that Herro/Booker/Maxey have gone through in recent years.
SGA as well. When watching a prospect for the first time, I try not to look up what he looks like or his number. Expecting him to pop. Never saw that with Tyty.
I had similar issues with Keegan Murray. Often times confusing him with his brother, who is his twin, but he didn't quite pop the way I was hoping for him to pop.
I had similar issues with Keegan Murray. Often times confusing him with his brother, who is his twin, but he didn't quite pop the way I was hoping for him to pop.
Haven't thought too much about a BPA board outside the top 12-13 picks. I agree, I'm not a huge fan of TyTy, but it gets reaaaaal muddy with like the next 20-25 prospects after that initial top dozen guys. It'd make sense to me to just prioritize archetype, but I don't think there's a big talent gap at all in that 15-35 range.
This is probably the weakest guard draft in years (in contrast to next year where Scoot and Nick Smith Jr. headline a deep point guard class), especially in the lotto. Given Monte’s propensity for going BPA, something crazy would have to happen for us to wind up with a PG out of this draft class like Jaden Ivey falling our us jumping to 4 or Monte having a stroke while calling in the selection. (plus, for whatever it’s worth, Haliburton was projected to be an offball shooting guard when we drafted him only for him to turn into a lead ballhandler instead).
Definitely agree on Washington, but Duren could very well be BPA at #7-9. He's a poor fit the same way Mitchell was a poor fit last year, but McNair has shown he'll make that move. It's definitely not a great fit in the short term (and even worse if Holmes isn't moved) but long term if he reaches his potential he could be dealt for more down the road than some other options in that range.
That said, I agree that McNair is probably looking more at fit this draft than previously. He's banked on the Fox/Sabonis pairing and needs to make the playoffs. I think he's looking for a rookie that can fit and help with that playoff push. I'm sure he'd also trade the pick in the right deal as well.
If the Kings make the playoffs next year I'm guessing he'll get an extension and his strategy will change a bit. But for now I'm sure he's looking more short term, which isn't a terrible thing for a team that's missed the postseason for so long. Have a winning season and then reassess.
Watching Murray I don't have a negative opinion, but I'd agree - he's the kind of guy that you think is having a pretty meh game until you check the box score. I have some concerns that his numbers won't translate at all because there's nothing about him that really pops. Not athleticism, or shooting, or motor, or IQ. It may just be that he's really, really solid everywhere and a bit boring, but the fact that he never really stuck out while watching him is a bit concerning.
That said, I agree that McNair is probably looking more at fit this draft than previously. He's banked on the Fox/Sabonis pairing and needs to make the playoffs. I think he's looking for a rookie that can fit and help with that playoff push. I'm sure he'd also trade the pick in the right deal as well.
If the Kings make the playoffs next year I'm guessing he'll get an extension and his strategy will change a bit. But for now I'm sure he's looking more short term, which isn't a terrible thing for a team that's missed the postseason for so long. Have a winning season and then reassess.
Watching Murray I don't have a negative opinion, but I'd agree - he's the kind of guy that you think is having a pretty meh game until you check the box score. I have some concerns that his numbers won't translate at all because there's nothing about him that really pops. Not athleticism, or shooting, or motor, or IQ. It may just be that he's really, really solid everywhere and a bit boring, but the fact that he never really stuck out while watching him is a bit concerning.
Yeah, Duren definitely has some intriguing traits. It's easy to right him off as a dinosaur because he doesn't have the shooting, but it's hard to ignore some of these physical attributes: 6'11/250 with a 7'5 wingspan and eliiiite athleticism. Won't turn 19 until November. I don't recall a dude with his physical attributes at such a young age in a long time.
I don't see the Bam offensive development, but you can certainly see a ton of the same potentially elite skills on defense with the rim protection and lateral movement to not get exposed in the PnR. I think he'll have one of the better chances to really thrive in drop coverage and be an asset in PnR defense rather than a liability.
The Kings are going to have to find trade-offs with Sabonis rather than waiting for the JJJ unicorn to appear (Perhaps if we win the lottery with Chet/Jabari). Do you want the rim protection/defensive upside with a Duren type who can be the defensive lynchpin, but have to get very very creative on offense to make up for the lack of spacing. Or do you want to roll with the Sabonis and 4-out strategy that likely can create a top 10 offense in a good system, but struggle on defense with Harrison Barnes at the 4.
I don't see the Bam offensive development, but you can certainly see a ton of the same potentially elite skills on defense with the rim protection and lateral movement to not get exposed in the PnR. I think he'll have one of the better chances to really thrive in drop coverage and be an asset in PnR defense rather than a liability.
The Kings are going to have to find trade-offs with Sabonis rather than waiting for the JJJ unicorn to appear (Perhaps if we win the lottery with Chet/Jabari). Do you want the rim protection/defensive upside with a Duren type who can be the defensive lynchpin, but have to get very very creative on offense to make up for the lack of spacing. Or do you want to roll with the Sabonis and 4-out strategy that likely can create a top 10 offense in a good system, but struggle on defense with Harrison Barnes at the 4.
Brown's plan for Barnes (along with can he turn Fox into a plus-defender) is perhaps the most interesting subplot of this hire and the existing roster. I am 90% certain Barnes will be back next year and will stay until his position is usurped because it would be hard to trade him for equal value at another position without leaving a hole in his place.
Duren kinda reminds me of a young Stoudamire. Before he developed his jump shot, post injury. I like him, but agree the fit is just really bad with Domas.
For Murray, yea, the only thing that really popped was his shot from three when he was on. And I don't think he can play the 5 (draftexpress thinks he can). As a 5, he has much more value.
For Murray, yea, the only thing that really popped was his shot from three when he was on. And I don't think he can play the 5 (draftexpress thinks he can). As a 5, he has much more value.
Mobley and Allen worked together and neither are 3pt shooters but both are better defenders than Sabonis.
Although they played with Garland, who is a good 3pt shooter.
Then again, Fox shot the same percentage as Garland after the Hali trade on only 1 less shot per game.
Probably not a good idea but might not be a death knell to get a rim protector either.
Although they played with Garland, who is a good 3pt shooter.
Then again, Fox shot the same percentage as Garland after the Hali trade on only 1 less shot per game.
Probably not a good idea but might not be a death knell to get a rim protector either.
The Mo Williams from 05-09 was as good if not better than Fox, but I think due to superior physical gifts and inflated stats Fox will probably have a slightly better career. it was only like 1 year ago (MOrant was better than to) where all the same people were laughing at the notion of MOrant > Fox when Kb and others said it. I don't really see why people think Fox is anything but a average starting PG.
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Why those seasons specifically, I wonder**? Funny how you have to intentionally omit Williams' first season in Milwaukee, and intentionally include his first season with LeBron, to even "kind of" have an argument. And even if you deliberately narrow the parameters to those specific seasons, you still only "kind of" have an argument if you're basing your thesis on "the only stats that tend to matter" (according to @kb02).
I mean, seriously, why did you go out of your way to compare Williams' seasons 3-6 to Fox's seasons 2-5, as if it wasn't ridiculously obvious what changed for Williams in Season 6 (hint: it wasn't Williams taking a quantum leap as a player). It couldn't be because you knew that, if you compared the same seasons that your argument doesn't hold up, could it?
** I don't actually wonder.
I mean, seriously, why did you go out of your way to compare Williams' seasons 3-6 to Fox's seasons 2-5, as if it wasn't ridiculously obvious what changed for Williams in Season 6 (hint: it wasn't Williams taking a quantum leap as a player). It couldn't be because you knew that, if you compared the same seasons that your argument doesn't hold up, could it?
** I don't actually wonder.
Because that's his prime, Mo Williams was not expected to even be a starter or even a NBA player at any point coming into the NBA he was the 47th pick meaning he had way less opportunity until someone (was It TJ Ford?) luckily for him got injured. Fox was touted as a Allstar player and was hyped so off course he's going to have a better start to his career. (raw stats wise) Williams during his prime was a average starting PG like Fox is now I don't get why people are insulted if someone says Mo Williams during certain seasons was as good or better than Fox.
They overvalue Fox and will defend him until he’s no longer a King. Once he’s gone, criticizing him won’t be sacrilege.
First, if you go back to the original post, I said Mo Williams, in his prime, had as much or more value than Fox. The years that @serbiangoat cites were his prime years. And despite what you may choose to consider, during Williams’ prime years, he made an all star team.
Second, the link that compares Williams to Fox is for their entire careers, which is normalized in the advanced and some of the “per” sections. So his Milwaukee years and his twilight years were accounted for. But, of course, this fact doesn’t fit your narrative, so you choose to carry on about Lebron and Jameer Nelson.
Third, Williams made the all star team at the age of 26. Your superstar PG is turning 26 this year, playing next to a legitimate all star, and under what some are saying a perfect GM-HC duo—the BEST since Petrie and Adelman. If Fox is as good as Williams, he should make the all star team this year.
First, if you go back to the original post, I said Mo Williams, in his prime, had as much or more value than Fox. The years that @serbiangoat cites were his prime years. And despite what you may choose to consider, during Williams’ prime years, he made an all star team.
Second, the link that compares Williams to Fox is for their entire careers, which is normalized in the advanced and some of the “per” sections. So his Milwaukee years and his twilight years were accounted for. But, of course, this fact doesn’t fit your narrative, so you choose to carry on about Lebron and Jameer Nelson.
Third, Williams made the all star team at the age of 26. Your superstar PG is turning 26 this year, playing next to a legitimate all star, and under what some are saying a perfect GM-HC duo—the BEST since Petrie and Adelman. If Fox is as good as Williams, he should make the all star team this year.