Joerger: Tanking, incompetent or ? (With poll)

[allrightythen]

Something being missed here is that just because the coach plus management is following sime developmental plan that may lead to more losses now, this doeant mean they are not working toward winning more in the future. This is all about long term. Take time at the cost of winnig to develope the yoing guys best they can regardless of it costs in wins this year. Tbis is about the future.

This reasoning is probably why I'm not really bothered by the state of the team. Most years this kind of start would be really depressing, but this year has a different feel and purpose and I can see at least some of it coming to fruition. I don't understand some of the rotation decisions, but I do thing it's anything worthy of criticism given their stated objectives.

 

[kingdivac]

what mistakes? he's been pulling guys out never to be seen until late in the game even when they play WELL

there is no excuse for this mess. Coach needs to improve in this area and with his sub patterns, period.

As I recall Adelman used to pull players when they were doing well - so his rotations may be pre-thought to some degree rather than reactive or spontaneous or likely a mix.

The only reason this is a topic is because there are more Ls than Ws in the Standings.

 

[King Baller]

I can't believe this thread and the anti-Joerger nuts who have come out of the shadows. Are you the same guys who used to hate on Adelman for his rotations?

And the same guys that hated on Malone and his rotations It don't end.

 

[kingsfan1984]

There are lineups im eager to see. Before the season i was in the camp that vets were not needed in the lineup to teach how to play. My assumption is that the coaching staff fills this need. So when i see grandpa ZBO shuttle out there on his walker for majority of minuets....i have questions.

BUT having queation for the coach is NOT the same as aaying i know better. I just want to hear the rational behind the starting lineup, the subsitution patterns, what the long term vision is with the offensive and defensive schemes he has decided to run.

Im just a fan so my criticism comes from an understanding that im 99% ignorant of the answers to these queation, BUT i dont want to be!!!

These topics are perfect for a podcast with James Ham and Joeger. Take some time to educate the fans and get them up to speed. WE WANT TO KNOW

I see the main issue here is a demand/lack for better journalism in regards to the team.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

I really don’t understand the obsession with wins at this point with this team. Wins should come as a result of player development, not at the expense of player development. This team is not very good right now, most of the players are not very good right now. But the team has a whole world of potential if developed properly. It will not come over night, it certainly will not come after 5 games. This team will not win a whole lot of games this year. I hear people complaining they just want to win the games they should win. Well, at this point, how do we even know which games those are? And why is that even important at this point? What does it matter if the team wins 25 games or 35 games (except for draft considerations and I’m not even going there)?

People are complaining about Joerger’s rotations, their “favorites” aren’t getting enough playing time. They are cherry picking stats (particularly shooting stats) and complaining that their guy made 3 baskets in x minutes, why did he get pulled and why didn’t he get more minutes? Well, was he doing what he was supposed to? Was he working within Joerger’s system or was he just free lancing? How about his defense? Was he where he was supposed to be, was he rotating properly? They complain about other player’s lack of stats, but were they where they were supposed to be within Joerger’s system, doing what they were supposed to be doing? Where they playing the defense Joerger had them work on in practice? Maybe their low stats were because their teammates weren’t doing what they were supposed to be doing. It’s a team game. These are the things the coaching staff needs to determine, not us.

As for the old guys playing time, they are basically just cannon fodder, space fillers. Most won’t be here in a couple of years. Ideally, they would mentor and show the young guys the right way to do things, but even if they don’t, Joerger has to have someone to put on the floor when he needs to pull a young guy because he isn’t doing the right thing.

I guess you have to ask yourself, if you want to reinforce bad habits and delay development in the young players for the sake of a few meaningless wins. People, give it time, 20 games will not even be long enough. Maybe, by the halfway point we will start to see some results, but don’t expect a whole lot of wins even then. It’s the NBA, it’s hard. Watching these guys develop is going to be fun, forget the wins and losses for now, just enjoy the ride. Hopefully in a couple of years it will start to pay off and the Kings won’t be just another team stuck in 8th place purgatory.

 

[EIM86]

Some of the posts on here are just....I don't know.....I'm trying to be polite but some of these posts are almost unbelievable. We are fortunate to have Joerger here. The lack of patience is damn maddening. I didnt want to see Boogie traded, vehemently against it, but this is the direction that many wanted, including the organization. I've accepted the deal and the path of rebuilding and the same people who wanted Boogie dealt are now questioning the process and the ability of Joerger. This coach will get them there in the appropriate timeline. People already asking about replacement, giving him til all-star break, questioning his competence, games to fast for him, etc. SMH.

It's a 2-3 year process. Not a 5-10 game process. He's going to do it right. He's going to be here for a long, long time.

Just my opinion but I think based on last year and this year Joerger will not run a more modern offense like the Spurs and Dubs. Im prolly gonna get flack for this and hope Im wrong but I think Joerger is the guy before the guy.

 

[kingsboi]

what mistakes? he's been pulling guys out never to be seen until late in the game even when they play WELL

there is no excuse for this mess. Coach needs to improve in this area and with his sub patterns, period.

rookie mistakes? defensive assignments/rotations, not running a play, stagnation on offense. It's a number of things. Are we not watching the same games?

 

[bajaden]

Let me be clear! If the Kings were to fire Joerger anytime in the immediate future, I will no longer be a Kings fan, and I will no longer grace this board with my presence. Of course some of you would cheer that idea. What was it about this season that some of you didn't understand? Wasn't it apparent that we had a mix of veteran and inexperienced players, with a surplus of the inexperienced? Wasn't it apparent, that it was going to be a difficult job to mix and match that group, and keep everyone happy? Wasn't it stated that this season wasn't about wins and losses?

So far, Hill, a very good PG that could and would be starting for a lot of NBA teams is averaging 28:32 mpg while Fox is averaging 26:49 mpg. Those aren't bad minutes for a rookie, and I would expect that as the season goes on, and if Fox continues to play well, his minutes will increase. But so far, I can't really complain about his minutes. Randolph, a well respected and seasoned veteran is averaging 23:42 mpg, while Skal is averaging 22:55 mpg. That's less than a minute difference, and once again, I can't complain about Skal's minutes. Yes, he has outplayed Z Bo in a couple of games, but he's also played poorly in a couple of games.

My guess is that right now Joerger is more interested in seeing who plays well together. What combinations provide the most offense, or defense or hopefully both. He has players that probably deserve to get on the floor like Mason and Malachi. How does he do that without cutting someone else's minutes? Someone who perhaps is playing well? This isn't about just one game, it's about the big picture. It's about who stays and who goes. It's about 4 or 5 years from now. Knee jerk decisions are almost always bad decisions, and that's what the Kings have been guilty of for the last 7 or 8 years.

The key word for this season is patience, and some of you obviously don't know the meaning of that word. To be alright with firing Joerger at this point in the season tells me that either your smoking something illegal, or you just arrived from another planet. The saying goes that the older you get, the less you suffer fools. Well apparently I've reached that age, because I can't understand the lunacy that's running rampart in this thread. So for the sake of my own lunacy, I bid this thread farewell. Yeah, I know, self-serving, but also self-preserving.

 

[bajaden]

Just my opinion but I think based on last year and this year Joerger will not run a more modern offense like the Spurs and Dubs. Im prolly gonna get flack for this and hope Im wrong but I think Joerger is the guy before the guy.

I'll be blunt! I have no idea what your talking about. The Kings are trying to run a highpost motion offense. Now maybe your just blind and can't see all the players that are moving and cutting, or perhaps your suffering from tunnel vision. There are plays where the ball moves constantly, and in my opinion, at times, a little too much, where some of the guys are passing up open shots. The Kings are attempting to run an offense that's a cross between the offense that Vlade played in, and the dribble drive offense that Kentucky uses. Both are offshoots of the Princeton offense, which is the offense that the Spurs and the Warriors use to some extent.

I've been watching NBA basketball for over 50 years, and there is no modern offense. There is no offense that hasn't been tried or used in the NBA. It really comes down to using the best offense and defense for the talent you have. Joerger wants to play an uptempo game, which gets difficult when you have either Randolph or Koufos on the floor. Koufos runs the floor well, but he's lost in a motion offense. In other words, the Kings have some ill fitting pieces on the team. Even Hill has slowed the game down and appears to be struggling with the new offense at times.

In short, to expect everything to run smoothly and for all the players to look like a well oiled machine like the Spurs is pure nonsense after five games. This is going to take time, so if you don't have the time, then I suggest you pick another team, because this isn't going to change anytime soon, And Joerger isn't going to be fired. He's probably the best coach since Adelman, in my humble opinion. Sorry Mike, but you weren't here long enough. Yeah, I know, I lied about leaving. I'm going, I'm going.

 

[ESP47]

There are 7 players on the team that are all within 5 minutes of WCS, who is the team's minutes leader. So it's not like Joerger is being too unfair. We are just antsy to see the young guys play because when the veterans are out there it's basically a zzzz fest but when the young guys are out there it's like crack for us Kings fans.

 

[Npliam]

Not enough good coaches to entertain getting rid of him but Memphis fans say his rotation frustrated them as well

To be fair, Spurs fans are also frustrated with Pops rotations.

 

[Larry David]

It’s still early but the chemistry will get rough fast if most of the team remains in 25 minute platoons on a 25 win team. Particularly where, as here, the gaps, times and groups change like crazy. At some point, 5 Guys need to play a lot, 3 guys play some, 1 or 2 more guys play a bit. Who fills those slots can change, but a bad team with 4 or 5 platoons is going to snap.

 

[John Galt]

It’s still early but the chemistry will get rough fast if most of the team remains in 25 minute platoons on a 25 win team. Particularly where, as here, the gaps, times and groups change like crazy. At some point, 5 Guys need to play a lot, 3 guys play some, 1 or 2 more guys play a bit. Who fills those slots can change, but a bad team with 4 or 5 platoons is going to snap.

By December:
Fox, Hield, Bogie, Skal, WCS = play a lot
Hill, Jackson, Temple = play some
Koufas, Zbo = play when Skal & WCS have foul trouble and you need a big

 

[Vladizzle]

I can't believe this thread and the anti-Joerger nuts who have come out of the shadows. Are you the same guys who used to hate on Adelman for his rotations?

I hated Joerger's stubborn rotations just as much when he was in Memphis (I lived in Tennessee 2 years and followed the Griz). Griz fans hated it too. Eventually, you will too, because they are structured madness.

Not making a substitution until the 2-4 minute mark is something I don't know any other coach does. He thinks that's his thing, it's stupid.

 

[Sac.1989]

what does it do to a kids confidence when they're yanked after giving you great minutes? it makes no sense. He can be heavily critiqued like everyone else, it doesn't mean we're all done with this team or jumping off the bandwagon.

never really thought id see the day that the kings and bandwagon be spoken in the same sentence

its the structure of how we play and our rotation. getting yanked for a vet should not be a confidence killer, our vets should be able to execute better to our offensive and defensive schemes and the kids should be able to learn from it.

its part of the process. Coach has more faith in our vets to produce and theres nothing wrong with that, the issue is not his rotations but the fact that the vets are not performing at a level expected. His approach is fine. I am not for turning this over to the kids right now and really our vets need to do better.

 

[John Galt]

I hated Joerger's stubborn rotations just as much when he was in Memphis (I lived in Tennessee 2 years and followed the Griz). Griz fans hated it too. Eventually, you will too, because they are structured madness.

Not making a substitution until the 2-4 minute mark is something I don't know any other coach does. He thinks that's his thing, it's stupid.

people said the same thing about Rick Adelman. the whole time....

 

[VF21]

people said the same thing about Rick Adelman. the whole time....

I sure wish we could still access the "Lost Threads" from before Sept. 2004.

 

[Vladizzle]

people said the same thing about Rick Adelman. the whole time....

Well first off, one is a HOFer, all-time coach...and second, just because one has rotation flaws doesn't mean it's cool to have another, young, never done anything in the Pro League, coach do it too.

Joerger's are worse from my honest opinion. Never have I seen a coach wait so long consistently to make a sub. I've watched a lot of basketball in my time, the 6 minute marker is always the key time that teams make their first subs..occasionally earlier..occasionally a little later if the team has no more talent. We have talent, better talent on the bench, and structurally wait until the 2-4 minute mark. It's nonsense.

 

[VF21]

Ahem...

Kings coach Dave Joerger had to tell two veterans they’re going to get a night off for rest – when their workloads have been light and neither has played since Thursday – and watch as the youngsters take over. But decisions like this are why Joerger’s fourth-year option was picked up before the season.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/kings-blog/article181534636.html#storylink=cpy

 

[The Effort Police]

These are concerns that some people had before the season even started. Think about all the factors. Joerger's track record with Barnes last year, his penchant in Memphis for riding vets and having young players ride the pine, and what Memphis fans have said about his coaching habits. Giving contracts to known Joerger favorites like Zbo and Carter in the middle of a youth movement. The aforementioned two being old and decrepit, the former coming off his worst season, getting arrested, and Sacramento being a veteran free agent graveyard (Sessions, Afflalo, Belinelli, Barnes, etc) all rolled into one. Put that all together and this isn't coming from nowhere, people. There were lingering questions about his viability as the coach for a rebuild. I know I had them; I was hoping and still am hoping that the New Orleans wasn't a sign of things to come (Hill and Zbo resting gives me hope), but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

 

[jcassio]

This thread was really beginning to bug me. But then I took a different approach to it. So I went back through the thread and identified four posters that are hating on everything Joerger does. If I owned this thread, I’d 86 them. But the second best thing was to put all of them on my “ignore” list. Quite cathartic, actually. Should do this more often.

Now that’s not to say that I only want to read pro-Joerger posts. I’m all for fair criticism. But when someone has a one dimensional, destructive agenda, to hell with any obligation to hear what they’ve got to say.

 

[VF21]

This thread was really beginning to bug me. But then I took a different approach to it. So I went back through the thread and identified four posters that are hating on everything Joerger does. If I owned this thread, I’d 86 them. But the second best thing was to put all of them on my “ignore” list. Quite cathartic, actually. Should do this more often.

The only real downside to putting anyone on "ignore" is that you will occasionally come across a post that makes no sense whatsoever. Before you question your own sanity - or that of the poster you're reading - remember he/she might be responding to or quoting someone who is totally invisible to you.

 

[VF21]

I added a poll

 

[King Baller]

Well first off, one is a HOFer, all-time coach...and second, just because one has rotation flaws doesn't mean it's cool to have another, young, never done anything in the Pro League, coach do it too.

Joerger's are worse from my honest opinion. Never have I seen a coach wait so long consistently to make a sub. I've watched a lot of basketball in my time, the 6 minute marker is always the key time that teams make their first subs..occasionally earlier..occasionally a little later if the team has no more talent. We have talent, better talent on the bench, and structurally wait until the 2-4 minute mark. It's nonsense.

I have seen many well respected Coaches that leave the Fellas in the game to work it out. Sometimes Joerger does that. It is one way for the Fellas to learn to struggle through adversity and then move on to success. This team is new. Not used to each other. Not used to the system. Not used to the Coaches. In some case not used to the NBA. In some cases not used to California. Bogie is not used to the USA.

Think of how long it took to build the new Arena. Building a Team is that kind of a project, it takes time. So as Baja said if you are in a big hurry you best find a Team that is already built to support and save yourself the headaches of watching the growing pains. As for me I enjoy the process. As a fan of old movies one of my favs is The Magnificent Seven. My favorite part is the beginning where the plot is set up and then the choosing of the seven. Using that analogy this is where the Kings are at. Just now we are seeing the choosing of which Players will lead the Kings in the future. Enjoy!

 

[Jkbiker]

Why is Coach Playing Fox and Hill at the same time? Hill 30, Fox 24 min?

Those s1x min together I thought was awful

Don't we have all these SGs , Hill was paying awful, Fox is not the best shooter available

Shouldn't all of Fox 24 min be at PG?

I don't get it at all

 

[fansinceday1]

Day we signed joeger I went to the Memphis site to check out the reactions. Sure enough, this was one of the main issues of most of the fans there. His rotations sucked and his penchant of playing his veterans regardless of how bad they were playing. Is what it is. He favors his veterans.

I figure the sheer number of young guys on our team will force his hand.

 

[Kingster]

I sure wish we could still access the "Lost Threads" from before Sept. 2004.

Check with the NSA. They have all the emails.

 

[dude12]

Sooooooo....is this thread going to be closed now?

 

[Vladizzle]

Day we signed joeger I went to the Memphis site to check out the reactions. Sure enough, this was one of the main issues of most of the fans there. His rotations sucked and his penchant of playing his veterans regardless of how bad they were playing. Is what it is. He favors his veterans.

I figure the sheer number of young guys on our team will force his hand.

Yeah whoever called me out asking me to list what players Fizdale has implemented over Joerger's due to Joerger's obsession with vets I'd be more than happy to. It's funny how much people are jumping at Joerger criticism as if it's all nonsense, I lived in Tennessee, I followed the Grizzlies, every fan had issues with his rotations and vet obsession. This isn't something new.

Most notably was Zbo. When he started to decline, Joerger never entertained the idea of bringing him off the bench despite his defense and speed killing the starting unit, and he was a perfect bench spark... It took a new coach, who quickly moved Zbo to 6th man role.

 

[Telemachus]

Yeah whoever called me out asking me to list what players Fizdale has implemented over Joerger's due to Joerger's obsession with vets I'd be more than happy to. It's funny how much people are jumping at Joerger criticism as if it's all nonsense, I lived in Tennessee, I followed the Grizzlies, every fan had issues with his rotations and vet obsession. This isn't something new.

Most notably was Zbo. When he started to decline, Joerger never entertained the idea of bringing him off the bench despite his defense and speed killing the starting unit, and he was a perfect bench spark... It took a new coach, who quickly moved Zbo to 6th man role.

You might want to do a little more research. It was Joerger who started bringing Randolph off the bench at the end of his final season as head coach of Memphis. He even took some criticism for it if memory serves (Green wasn't quite ready yet).