Joerger: Tanking, incompetent or ? (With poll)

So what's the deal with Joerger?


  • Total voters
    81
Not kidding at all. Wall is not a top 3 PG. I've given my supporting evidence as to why in the post you quoted and in two other replies above. Feel free to challenge that stance if you would like. I'm curious to see why you think he is a top 3 PG.
Your supporting evidence is a pointless graph that just fits your agenda of not thinking Wall is a top 3 PG.
 
He's made it a goal of his to be first team all-nba defense this season and when he puts his mind on something, he will bust his tail on that end. Let's see where he ends up in seasons end.
Just like he made it a goal to show no mercy to Lonzo Ball? It’s all talk at this point until he proves it. Him saying he wants to be better doesn’t all of a sudden make him a top 3 PG today.

John has been pretty reliable since entering the league but if you go back to the 2012-2013 season where he only played 49 games, the Wiz won 29 games that season. I know it's only one season where he has missed significant time but I've watched the Wizards for a decade now and I can tell you first hand even when he doesn't play for a few games, the team loses more times than not.
The season before, the Wizards won 20 games with Wall, and in the season you reference, it was Beal’s rookie season and before Gortat got there.

It's still early in the season but at the moment he is shooting 33% from 3. He will hover around the 33-36 range for the season before it's said and done. Besides, he doesn't need to shoot 35%+ from deep in order to be considered elite and a top player for his position.
He will hover around 33-36% for the season? How do you know that? He’s only shot over 33% from theee twice in the last 5 seasons.

Sure, he doesn’t need to be a great shooter to be an elite player, but let’s not pretend like that’s the only argument I’m making.

I give you Curry & Russ, but Paul? Let's hear your reasoning behind this selection.
Well his impact stats are excellent on both offense and defense. He’s a better floor general, has better ball security, is a better defender, is a better shooter, and is a more efficient scorer.
 
that little chart you posted really doesn't say much, how recent is it? where did you get it from? provide some links. Show me the full chart of what you are looking at.
It doesn’t say much? Again, there’s no need to disregard stats if you don’t understand them. It doesn’t make your argument look stronger. As I mentioned already, all of those stats are from last season. And I’m not near a computer so I can’t send you the links but you can find on/off on basketball reference, RPM on ESPN, and RAPM is provided towards the end of each year from a site that I can’t remember at the moment (its bookmarked).
 
BRB, gonna go check Chris Paul's impact stats for effective bounce-a-bility off the rim on Monday nights when it's raining outside. Yup, just checked, not better than Wall's. Sorry.
 

Capt. Factorial

Cantry Member
Staff member
BRB, gonna go check Chris Paul's impact stats for effective bounce-a-bility off the rim on Monday nights when it's raining outside. Yup, just checked, not better than Wall's. Sorry.
Discussions usually are more productive when you listen to and consider what the other person is saying instead of reflexively mocking them for saying it. Just a tip.
 
Discussions usually are more productive when you listen to and consider what the other person is saying instead of reflexively mocking them for saying it. Just a tip.
Then don't post ridiculous stats and be pretentious about them? Nothing wrong with posting stats, but if you start acting pretentious about it, you deserve to be called out.
 
He CAN play on both ends but his lack of defensive impact says he doesn't do it consistently.



What data do you have to back up your 2nd point? Not doubting it but I'm sure you have some evidence to back up such a claim.



Not sure where you got this from. He hasn't improved every year. He's improved since coming into the year but his longe range shooting is still one of his weaknesses.
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Curry, Westbrook, & Paul.
I agree with you on those 3. Not because of advanced stats because I don't think using advanced metrics ever tell the whole story accurately, but because they are all playing at a higher level than Wall is right now.
 
Stats can tell you only so much. To me what matters most is how these guys play when they go head to head.

John Wall led his team to the Playoffs last season. Outside of Curry and Westbrook who is a better PG than John Wall?
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
Just like he made it a goal to show no mercy to Lonzo Ball? It’s all talk at this point until he proves it. Him saying he wants to be better doesn’t all of a sudden make him a top 3 PG today.


The season before, the Wizards won 20 games with Wall, and in the season you reference, it was Beal’s rookie season and before Gortat got there.

What does it matter who was on the team? The point is that when he doesn't play whether it's in his rookie season or a year or two ago, they don't look formidable.


He will hover around 33-36% for the season? How do you know that? He’s only shot over 33% from theee twice in the last 5 seasons.

Sure, he doesn’t need to be a great shooter to be an elite player, but let’s not pretend like that’s the only argument I’m making.

If he is a improving shooter, what leads you to believe that he can't be around 33-36%? Based off his career stats so far, he is a 32% 3 point shooter...he most definitely can maintain this level, if not better as he keeps working on his long range J.


Well his impact stats are excellent on both offense and defense. He’s a better floor general, has better ball security, is a better defender, is a better shooter, and is a more efficient scorer.

Their career stats are nearly identical. If you want to simply look at stats and use that as a base. I give you the better defender argument because he's made multiple all-NBA defenses, whether it was always warranted or not is for debate, but he has those accolades.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
It doesn’t say much? Again, there’s no need to disregard stats if you don’t understand them. It doesn’t make your argument look stronger. As I mentioned already, all of those stats are from last season. And I’m not near a computer so I can’t send you the links but you can find on/off on basketball reference, RPM on ESPN, and RAPM is provided towards the end of each year from a site that I can’t remember at the moment (its bookmarked).
Looking at this reference here for starters : https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walljo01/on-off/2017

This shows he is a plus in most categories other than rebounding, steals. They produce 10 more points with him on the court. They average nearly two more assists with him on the court as well. Their FG% drops to 3% without him on the court. I mean I don't have to tell you it all, have a look at the chart.

Why don't you go ahead and provide me with some other charts you were looking at. I'm curious to see.
 
Looking at this reference here for starters : https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/walljo01/on-off/2017

This shows he is a plus in most categories other than rebounding, steals. They produce 10 more points with him on the court. They average nearly two more assists with him on the court as well. Their FG% drops to 3% without him on the court. I mean I don't have to tell you it all, have a look at the chart.

Why don't you go ahead and provide me with some other charts you were looking at. I'm curious to see.
I did look at the chart! That was what I referenced as a point against Wall. I could care less if his team averages 2 more assists or more rebounds. At the end of the day, it’s impact on the game. And by impact, I’m talking about winning. That’s why I took the on/off differential that I displayed to you.

The argument is not if Wall makes his team better. He does! The question was is he a top 3 PG which is an easy no at this point in time.
 
What does it matter who was on the team? The point is that when he doesn't play whether it's in his rookie season or a year or two ago, they don't look formidable.

If he is a improving shooter, what leads you to believe that he can't be around 33-36%? Based off his career stats so far, he is a 32% 3 point shooter...he most definitely can maintain this level, if not better as he keeps working on his long range J.

Their career stats are nearly identical. If you want to simply look at stats and use that as a base. I give you the better defender argument because he's made multiple all-NBA defenses, whether it was always warranted or not is for debate, but he has those accolades.
It matters because you tried to make it seem like a season that they won few games was because Wall was hurt. I simply pointed out that it wasn’t all of a sudden Wall being healthy the next year. It was Wall being healthy, Gortat arriving, and Beal no longer being a rookie. You’re trying to put all of the improvement in record on Wall which is very short sighted to say the least.

I didn’t say he was an “improving” shooter. I said he improved since he came into the league. He hasn’t had much improvement in his shot the last few years.

Why in the world would anyone use career stats when talking about who’s a top 3 PG TODAY? Why should Chris Paul’s rookie season be factored into a discussion about who’s a top 3 PG TODAY? Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
I did look at the chart! That was what I referenced as a point against Wall. I could care less if his team averages 2 more assists or more rebounds. At the end of the day, it’s impact on the game. And by impact, I’m talking about winning. That’s why I took the on/off differential that I displayed to you.

The argument is not if Wall makes his team better. He does! The question was is he a top 3 PG which is an easy no at this point in time.
it's an easy no because you say so?
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
It matters because you tried to make it seem like a season that they won few games was because Wall was hurt. I simply pointed out that it wasn’t all of a sudden Wall being healthy the next year. It was Wall being healthy, Gortat arriving, and Beal no longer being a rookie. You’re trying to put all of the improvement in record on Wall which is very short sighted to say the least.

I didn’t say he was an “improving” shooter. I said he improved since he came into the league. He hasn’t had much improvement in his shot the last few years.

Why in the world would anyone use career stats when talking about who’s a top 3 PG TODAY? Why should Chris Paul’s rookie season be factored into a discussion about who’s a top 3 PG TODAY? Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
What's ridiculous is you saying that Paul is a better overall player than Wall and then you want to talk about stats, so the fact that you want to simply look at fancy charts to make your base is taking out of the equation what we see with the naked eye.

Would you like to compare the players stats in the postseason while we are at it?
 
What's ridiculous is you saying that Paul is a better overall player than Wall and then you want to talk about stats, so the fact that you want to simply look at fancy charts to make your base is taking out of the equation what we see with the naked eye.

Would you like to compare the players stats in the postseason while we are at it?
What makes you think I don't go by what I see with my eyes as well? I mentioned already that it is important to factor both into the equation; otherwise, you are knowingly turning away information.

When you watch the game, Paul looks better. He's not only talented but he's a smart player that makes efficient decisions. Wall has talent but doesn't maximize it as well which doesn't translate into as much impact on the floor. I see the same thing in the numbers I presented to you, but somehow they are simply disregarded and cast aside by you. Give a reason why you are disregarding them other than that they are "fancy."

Paul is the better PG. The eyes show it & the stats show it.

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He literally is better across the board unless you think his blocks outweigh everything else or that Wall scoring more at a much less efficient rate is some how impressive.
 
You do realize you are now getting up in arms about something not even Kings related?

I understand it's about a point being proven but what does it really matter anymore at this point? We see the Wizards twice a year.


I know I just made a HUGE mistake even getting involved but....kumbaya, players. Kumbaya.
 
You do realize you are now getting up in arms about something not even Kings related?

I understand it's about a point being proven but what does it really matter anymore at this point? We see the Wizards twice a year.


I know I just made a HUGE mistake even getting involved but....kumbaya, players. Kumbaya.
Not to mention it has nothing to do with the OP's post about Joerger:p
 
There's a lot of talk about Joerger in Memphis, and being a one-dimensional coach, trying to duplicate the same offensive system he had there with players that don't fit that system now, but the part that surprises me is that prior to becoming an NBA head coach, he was a very successful coach for multiple minor league teams. Does anybody know if he was still running the same type of system he has in place now back before he got to the NBA?

It just seems odd that a coach who has such a good track record in the minor leagues and getting the most out of young players can't seem to make this team anything better than the worst team in the NBA. I know little to nothing about the minor leagues, but looking at his Wikipedia page, he consistently led his teams to the playoffs and even won multiple championships. Despite the level of competition, it still feels like you need to be a very bright basketball mind to be able to adapt to those ever changing D-League rosters, and find ways to win. For him to now be a one-trick pony and try and jam a square peg into a round hole seems...just a little weird to me. He's too smart to try and force these players into a system that they're not suited for....right? It feels like something is going on behind the scenes....
 
I think that Joeger is using the regular season as an extended training camp at this point. He knows this team is young and are going to lose a lot of games by sheer lack of experience.

So he is experimenting with different lineups, to see which rotation will ultimately get the playing time.

Joeger's teams traditionally start slow. I think by 25-30 games in, we will see the rotation set and the team being more competitive, even if they are not winning very many games.

The frustrating part right now, is that the rotation the first 4 games seemed pretty competitive in those games, and now the team looks like crap.

Well, by New Years Day, I expect the team to be playing a lot more sound and competitive basketball. :)