tyreeeke
Bench
lol yep.
Jimmer
- Thread starter dustnroses
- Start date
lol yep.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
oh wow ur right. u should call petrie
tyreeeke
Bench
http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/king...after-jimmer-remains-a-plus-on-the-court.html
The statistics continue to support that Jimmer Fredette needs to play more.
Fredette is one of two Kings to not have a negative plus/minus rating this season. Fredette is at zero. John Salmons, who has played in just three games, has a plus-9.
Last season Fredette finished tied with Salmons for second-worst plus/minus on the Kings (-209).
Adding to that -- Fredette's average per 48 minutes is 36.9 points per game.
Fredette has played 72 minutes, 40 seconds, so the sample size isn't huge. But thus far this season, good things have happened when Fredette has played.
Fredette and Salmons were the only Kings without negative plus/minus ratings in Tuesday's 103-86 loss to the Portland Trail Blazers.
Fredette was a part of the group that helped make Tuesday's game close at halftime. Fredette was also on the bench in the third quarter when the Blazers opened up a big lead.
Not to say Fredette would have stopped the run all by himself. But after 13 points and a career-high six assists in 25 minutes (a season high), it appears more Jimmer might be good for the Kings.
Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/king...emains-a-plus-on-the-court.html#storylink=cpy
The statistics continue to support that Jimmer Fredette needs to play more.
Fredette is one of two Kings to not have a negative plus/minus rating this season. Fredette is at zero. John Salmons, who has played in just three games, has a plus-9.
Last season Fredette finished tied with Salmons for second-worst plus/minus on the Kings (-209).
Adding to that -- Fredette's average per 48 minutes is 36.9 points per game.
Fredette has played 72 minutes, 40 seconds, so the sample size isn't huge. But thus far this season, good things have happened when Fredette has played.
Fredette and Salmons were the only Kings without negative plus/minus ratings in Tuesday's 103-86 loss to the Portland Trail Blazers.
Fredette was a part of the group that helped make Tuesday's game close at halftime. Fredette was also on the bench in the third quarter when the Blazers opened up a big lead.
Not to say Fredette would have stopped the run all by himself. But after 13 points and a career-high six assists in 25 minutes (a season high), it appears more Jimmer might be good for the Kings.
Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/sports/king...emains-a-plus-on-the-court.html#storylink=cpy
Chupacabra
Starter
In order for the team to not have to compensate for Jimmer being on the floor we would need a taller primary ball handler that can shoot and defend. In other words if Jimmer plays big minutes then we would need a well rounded shooting guard on the floor at the same time. I like the speed of Jimmers trigger finger and his ability to make a shot from anywhere, but hes not a primary ball handler. I dont want him to be a primary ball handler. I think hes best in the Reggie Miller role.
tyreeeke
Bench
I love the Reggie Miller role for Jimmer on this team, but he does have better handles.
Hadlowe
Starter
I would agree with that, except I haven't seen any indication that Jimmer can play dirty, let alone time the dirty plays to coincide with the refs turning away.
Not to detract from what's been a good few games, but we've seen this before through Smart's rotations. Last year was IT's turn, and many thought he was the second coming of Tiny Archibald. If we go back to a "just run and shoot and hope to outscore people" type of offense (if you can call it that), Jimmer's numbers will assuredly dive. Jimmer is a good complementary piece in a half-court set. Aside from that, it's too early to call it in either direction. I'm glad to see that he's improved from last year, but that's about it for me. How he continues depends on how Smart fiddles around. Jimmer may continue to see extended minutes, or he might have a DNP-CD with Garcia getting 15+ minutes for the next three games.
The worse the team plays the more minutes Fredette gets and that's good.
No matter how bad he was or is he has potential, he has improved and he is a big investment (a high pick). He will until he breaks his pick or is traded.
Comparing him to Bibby is like comparing an eighth grader to a senior. Fredette should have abetter shot but that's it.
It would be fun to see Fredette make it but he has a long way to go and he may not have the tools to make it. But we are talking about him.
No matter how bad he was or is he has potential, he has improved and he is a big investment (a high pick). He will until he breaks his pick or is traded.
Comparing him to Bibby is like comparing an eighth grader to a senior. Fredette should have abetter shot but that's it.
It would be fun to see Fredette make it but he has a long way to go and he may not have the tools to make it. But we are talking about him.
roasthawg
Starter
Evans and Fredette in the backcourt together makes a lot of sense to me... not sure why we almost never see that combo?
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
At times, it would make sense. I want more Reke/Jimmer, but that's in opposition to our backcourt bench pairings, of Jimmer/IT, Jimmer/Brooks, or a combination of those three and MT at SF. It makes sense to pair our best shooter and best creator in Reke/Jimmer for say, 5-7 mins per half and see how it goes.
But Jimmer starting? There's still the issue of who he guards. He hasn't been good defensively against backup bench players. Yet now, people want his starting.So, who does he guard? The Westbrook, CP3, DWill and Parker's of the league, or the Kobe, Wade, Joe Johnson, Harden and Monta's of the league? Hell, look at our own roster, could Jimmer guard Reke or MT? I'd say no if you want any kind of defensive success.
And we're not the elite defensive team we were the first four games. We're down to 22 or 23 in the league. It's not just a coincidence that happened as Jimmers minutes increased, and I don't have any confidence in Smart putting defensive lineups around Jimmer to hide him effectively enough, as he hasn't thus far.
There's also the issue of Jimmer is better hitting off the dribble than catch and shoot off the ball. The idea of playing him with Reke and Cuz would be to spread the floor and play off them. Right now, although playing much better, not much of it has happened without the ball, and we're not better having Reke/Cuz sit back and watch Jimmer dribble around and jack up shots.
I almost can't believe I'm saying this, but I wouldn't mind seeing that starting backcourt. Given that Jimmer has shown a lot of improvement/potential and Isiah Thomas has struggled, it makes some sense, especially since Brooks is not a guy I want to see starting. He's much more of a chucker who can play a role off the bench when his shot is falling whereas Jimmer DOES look to run the offense and get guys involved. And again, he'd be willing to defer primary ballhandling duties to Tyreke which I think is a good thing.
tyreeeke
Bench
Jimmer's defense has been better than any guard not named Tyreke on this team thus far, the statements that some people make baffle me.
tyreeeke
Bench
http://www.examiner.com/article/jimmer-resurgent-sacramento-to-call-his-nba-career-over-is-premature
For awhile it seemed that every Tom, Dick and Harry with a keyboard thought the NBA career of Jimmer Fredette was over.
Guess they all spoke too soon.
The return of Jimmer is alive and well in Sacramento, about the same time when some NBA scout predicted that the former BYU star wouldn't last any longer than other BYU players had in the world's greatest basketball league.
View slideshow: Jimmer Returns
Whether or not Jimmer will eventually wind up in Europe like his back court mate Jackson Emery -- or like Rafael Araujo, Travis Hansen or any of the other former Cougars currently plying a trade overseas is still up for debate.
What is not up for debate -- at least not at the moment -- is whether Jimmer, the 2010 NBA Draft's No. 10 pick will ever become a regular in this league.
After a rookie season in which Jimmer averaged 7.6 points per game, shooting just 38 percent from the field, many wondered whether this player -- who won just about every college player of the year award in sight in his senior year -- would even make it to role player status.
He took bad shots, they said. He couldn't play defense, they added. He couldn't help the Kings -- a woefully bad Pacific Division bottom-feeder with a location identity crisis -- win games.
Did they forget the kid was just a rookie? And what did they expect out of the former consensus collegiate player of the year?
Apparently, some expected a lot, while others expected him to be like other former Cougars.
Obviously, they don't know Jimmer.
In a league filled with overhyped, over paid individuals consistently lacking in character, and moral and ethical values that enable certain unmentionable individuals to have multiple baby's mommass spread throughout our 50 states, Jimmer has none of those afore-mentioned qualities.
He simply is a throwback, an anomaly, a married and devoutly religious man. He is Steve Nash and John Stockton in some ways, but with a better jump shot than they had coming into this dog-eat-dog league. Neither Nash nor Stockton set the league on fire when they first arrived, so why pick on a kid like Jimmer who has all the qualities any coach would ever want?
And so naturally, in a league filled of players who make incorrect decisions trying to decide whether hundreds of females gathered in an arena's hallway are actually there for an autograph, you would want to root for a guy who does everything right.
And so far, in a season that not only makes or breaks Jimmer's NBA career, you can continue rooting for the kid to which few gave a chance.
The former BYU star's numbers are up from last year, as he's averaging over eight points in just 10 minutes per contest. But what is more astounding -- and should lead to even more playing time as the season goes on -- is that Jimmer is shooting over 59 percent from field goal range.
That is tops on the entire Sacramento Kings roster.
Unlike last season, in which Jimmer took ill-advised jump shots that found him seated deep on the Kings' bench, a more measured player is taking the court in 2012-13 knowing that his best chance to stay with the Kings -- and in the always changing NBA -- is now.
Forget about all the rumors of his team possibly moving to Vegas, or Anaheim -- or any city that will take the Maloof brothers -- Jimmer is all about making himself and his team better.
He's not only taking responsibility for his own mistakes, he's staking it on the team, and vowing to change the lowly Kings' fortunes.
Video: http://www.nba.com/kings/video/2012/11/14/KingsvsBlazersPostgameReaction...
With players like DeMarcus Cousins and Isaiah Thomas spending more time on the sidelines, garnering DNP's for suspensions and for personal reasons, Jimmer is taking these limited opportunities and making the most of each, and then some.
And though the Kings as a team may be off to a slow start -- having just won twice in its first seven games -- it doesn't appear that Jimmer is going back towards the end of the bench anytime in the near future.
And that's good for not only Kings fans -- who have to deal with Cousins' mental breakdowns on a regular basis -- but the league's fans as a whole.
By and large, though Cousins is a huge talent -- as is evidenced by his team-leading 17 point, 10 rebound per game average -- he is also a huge headache.
By comparison, Jimmer has made great strides in his game in just under one year in the league -- should you count last year's strike-shortened season.
So for Jimmer, who is technically still in his first season, and still undergoes rituals befitting of any rookie in the NBA, it will be exciting to see what happens next as he embarks on his journey not to prove anyone wrong per se -- but to prove to himself that he is an NBA player.
The most impressive attribute about Jimmer is that he is humble and first to point out a positive trait of a teammate -- rather than belittle even the person he's competing for playing time with.
Such attributes are those of a team leader, the kind of guy who is first to the gym and last to leave, knowing that he always has work to do to be the best player, and person, he can be -- on the court and off.
And if those aren't values you should be teaching your kids -- character traits that NBA players should be displaying while your kids are watching these same NBA players' behavior on and off the court, then you don't know much about basketball.
And you obviously don't know that Jimmer -- the golden boy with one name recognition who has been to the proverbial mountaintop at every stop -- could someday be a star.
For awhile it seemed that every Tom, Dick and Harry with a keyboard thought the NBA career of Jimmer Fredette was over.
Guess they all spoke too soon.
The return of Jimmer is alive and well in Sacramento, about the same time when some NBA scout predicted that the former BYU star wouldn't last any longer than other BYU players had in the world's greatest basketball league.
View slideshow: Jimmer Returns
Whether or not Jimmer will eventually wind up in Europe like his back court mate Jackson Emery -- or like Rafael Araujo, Travis Hansen or any of the other former Cougars currently plying a trade overseas is still up for debate.
What is not up for debate -- at least not at the moment -- is whether Jimmer, the 2010 NBA Draft's No. 10 pick will ever become a regular in this league.
After a rookie season in which Jimmer averaged 7.6 points per game, shooting just 38 percent from the field, many wondered whether this player -- who won just about every college player of the year award in sight in his senior year -- would even make it to role player status.
He took bad shots, they said. He couldn't play defense, they added. He couldn't help the Kings -- a woefully bad Pacific Division bottom-feeder with a location identity crisis -- win games.
Did they forget the kid was just a rookie? And what did they expect out of the former consensus collegiate player of the year?
Apparently, some expected a lot, while others expected him to be like other former Cougars.
Obviously, they don't know Jimmer.
In a league filled with overhyped, over paid individuals consistently lacking in character, and moral and ethical values that enable certain unmentionable individuals to have multiple baby's mommass spread throughout our 50 states, Jimmer has none of those afore-mentioned qualities.
He simply is a throwback, an anomaly, a married and devoutly religious man. He is Steve Nash and John Stockton in some ways, but with a better jump shot than they had coming into this dog-eat-dog league. Neither Nash nor Stockton set the league on fire when they first arrived, so why pick on a kid like Jimmer who has all the qualities any coach would ever want?
And so naturally, in a league filled of players who make incorrect decisions trying to decide whether hundreds of females gathered in an arena's hallway are actually there for an autograph, you would want to root for a guy who does everything right.
And so far, in a season that not only makes or breaks Jimmer's NBA career, you can continue rooting for the kid to which few gave a chance.
The former BYU star's numbers are up from last year, as he's averaging over eight points in just 10 minutes per contest. But what is more astounding -- and should lead to even more playing time as the season goes on -- is that Jimmer is shooting over 59 percent from field goal range.
That is tops on the entire Sacramento Kings roster.
Unlike last season, in which Jimmer took ill-advised jump shots that found him seated deep on the Kings' bench, a more measured player is taking the court in 2012-13 knowing that his best chance to stay with the Kings -- and in the always changing NBA -- is now.
Forget about all the rumors of his team possibly moving to Vegas, or Anaheim -- or any city that will take the Maloof brothers -- Jimmer is all about making himself and his team better.
He's not only taking responsibility for his own mistakes, he's staking it on the team, and vowing to change the lowly Kings' fortunes.
Video: http://www.nba.com/kings/video/2012/11/14/KingsvsBlazersPostgameReaction...
With players like DeMarcus Cousins and Isaiah Thomas spending more time on the sidelines, garnering DNP's for suspensions and for personal reasons, Jimmer is taking these limited opportunities and making the most of each, and then some.
And though the Kings as a team may be off to a slow start -- having just won twice in its first seven games -- it doesn't appear that Jimmer is going back towards the end of the bench anytime in the near future.
And that's good for not only Kings fans -- who have to deal with Cousins' mental breakdowns on a regular basis -- but the league's fans as a whole.
By and large, though Cousins is a huge talent -- as is evidenced by his team-leading 17 point, 10 rebound per game average -- he is also a huge headache.
By comparison, Jimmer has made great strides in his game in just under one year in the league -- should you count last year's strike-shortened season.
So for Jimmer, who is technically still in his first season, and still undergoes rituals befitting of any rookie in the NBA, it will be exciting to see what happens next as he embarks on his journey not to prove anyone wrong per se -- but to prove to himself that he is an NBA player.
The most impressive attribute about Jimmer is that he is humble and first to point out a positive trait of a teammate -- rather than belittle even the person he's competing for playing time with.
Such attributes are those of a team leader, the kind of guy who is first to the gym and last to leave, knowing that he always has work to do to be the best player, and person, he can be -- on the court and off.
And if those aren't values you should be teaching your kids -- character traits that NBA players should be displaying while your kids are watching these same NBA players' behavior on and off the court, then you don't know much about basketball.
And you obviously don't know that Jimmer -- the golden boy with one name recognition who has been to the proverbial mountaintop at every stop -- could someday be a star.
MT for sure and probably IT have both played better defense over the course of the season. And they aren't exactly great defenders.
I'm not sure if I'm amused, annoyed or just sad when I read your posts.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Stats show otherwise. As I asked you yesterday, feel free to post stats which show Jimmer is even average on that side of the ball. Just because the biggest Jimmer fan around here keeps repeating Jimmer isn't a liability on that end doesn't make it true.
Isiah Thomas will always be limited by the fact that he's 5'9" but to anyone who has ever played, coached or just watched basketball he is a far superior defender to Fredette. Are you honestly trying to tell me that Jimmer does a good job of keeping his man in front of him? Now, his far less than stellar team defense is excusable in some ways. Not only is he a relatively inexperienced second year player but he was not asked (by design some claim) to play any defense in college. When his man doesn't have the ball Jimmer is often found out of position. Given his work ethic I think that he will make strides in that area. But as far as guarding his own man? I think he'll get a bit better but will always be limited by pedestrian size and a lack of lateral quickness. Thomas suffers even more from the former, but clearly is vastly superior when it comes to the latter.
The Kings have ONE good backcourt defender and that is Tyreke. The others are average to below. But in order I'd rank them Thomas, Thornton, Brooks and THEN Jimmer.
You can see that with your eyes but the defensive stats also bear that out.
I wasn't in favor of the Kings drafting Jimmer (you can go back and see that I was hoping for Kawhi Leonard) but I LIKE Fredette and certainly want to see him succeed. But we still have to be honest about what he is and isn't at this stage of his development. He IS showing great improvement on the offensive end in most areas (including running the offense) and more effort defensively. He is NOT a good defender. Or even a mediocre one.
If you are referring to the defensive rating, you want a lower number there not higher. It measures the estimated points allowed per 100 possessions. Jimmer has the worst defensive rating on the team this season.
tyreeeke
Bench
lol, I lost that one.
tyreeeke
Bench
Doesn't change the fact that Jimmer is the only player not at a - in the +/- category. (Salmons shouldn't count)
No problem. It took me a while to understand all the advanced metrics too. Again, I like Jimmer. I just think when we overrate where he is right now it actually detracts from the conversation.
He's definitely improved but I'd also be careful with the +/- stat. It depends heavily on who else is playing with you and also who you are playing against. With a small sample size like we have right now in Jimmer's case, it can be a little misleading (in either direction). But he ha been far more useful in spot minutes this year. I'd be curious to see what happens if he moves into bigger minutes
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I think we alll want him to succeed. And I certainly grant you that Jimmer is far from being a good defender. But with his scoring abiltiy, and I think passing ability, all he needs to do is become an average defender, and his other skills will make up for his defensive liabilities. My observation is that his biggest problem on defense isn't keeping his man in front of him, its anticipating and fighting through screens. He seems to have a hard time going over screens, and when he goes under a screen, he just gives a green light to PG's like Lillard who can shoot the ball. Its just something he has to work on, and knowing him, he will. But that doesn't help in the short term.
Right now, if he's out there we have to help him. He's much better with Hayes on the floor, because Hayes does a good job of guarding the pick and roll. As far as staying in front of your man. Its great if you have a player that can do that, but lets face it, Derrick Rose couldn't stay in front of Derrick Rose. Where Jimmer has improved, is that he's gotten better at making his man go in the direction of where he has help stopping the ball. Which is team defense. Plus, there's simply no replacement for real time experience. The more you play, the better you know the opposition, and the better you'll defend them.
Since the article mentioned Nash and Stockton, I thought I'd post some stats.
John Stockton:
1st yr: 18 MPG - 5.6 PPG - 47.1% FGP - 18.2% 3PP - 5.1 APG
2nd yr: 23.5 MPG - 7.7 PPG - 48.9% FGP - 13.3% 3PP - 7.4 APG
Steve Nash:
1st yr: 10.5 MPG - 3.3 PPG - 42.3% FGP - 41.8% 3PP - 2.1 APG
2nd yr: 21.8 MPG - 9.1 PPG - 45.9% FGP - 41.5% 3PP - 3.4 APG
Jimmer Fredette:
1st yr: 18.3 MPG - 7.6 PPG - 38.6% FGP - 36.1% 3PP - 1.8 APG
2nd yr
so far) 10.2 MPG - 8.0 PPG - 56.8% FGP - 38.5% 3PP - 1.4 APGThe writer was right about Stockton not being a good shooter out of college, and his 3 pt percentage bears that out. However, Nash was a very good shooter coming out of Santa Clara. Stockton didn't start shooting the ball well from beyond the circle until his 6th year in the league, after which he shot close to or over 40% every year. Nash didn't breakout and become the PG we all know until his 5th year in the league. Stockton was a good assist man from the get go, but didn't reach the double digit assists every year until his 4th year in the league.
By no means am I implying that Jimmer is the next Stockton or Nash. What I'am implying is that sometimes it takes time, expecially for players that came out of lesser conferences or smaller schools. Jimmer will probably never reach the heights of either of those players, but I do think he'll eventually become a good player in the league. I'd also like to point out, that neither Stockton or Nash was a very good defender when they came into the league. Some would argue that Nash still isn't, but no one cares either.
Last edited:
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
The question really boils down too, can Smart figure out a way to get Jimmer more minutes without sacrificing our defense. We're sliding defensively, and rapidly. Part is Cuz being out for two games, part isn't.
I think most agree Jimmer has made a very strong case for more meaningful minutes. But the major question is how to do that without our suffering defense suffering more, which quickly plummeted from top 3 in the league to 23 in the blink of the eye. Just throwing Jimmer out there more addresses one issue, outside shooting and better spacing but does nothing to address the other, our poor at the moment defense. You can't just swap one for the other. We did that last year and still barely won. It's not just about improving our offense without looking at our defense.
Now, if we knew Jimmer had jumped either IT or Brooks in the rotation and was going to play instead of one, rather than in addition to both, it'd be easier to work out an answer. The biggest issue in figuring out how more Jimmer could work is our coach, who's shown no inclination to play he and Reke together in the first place, and throws out the most random lineups we've seen possibly ever.
I think most agree Jimmer has made a very strong case for more meaningful minutes. But the major question is how to do that without our suffering defense suffering more, which quickly plummeted from top 3 in the league to 23 in the blink of the eye. Just throwing Jimmer out there more addresses one issue, outside shooting and better spacing but does nothing to address the other, our poor at the moment defense. You can't just swap one for the other. We did that last year and still barely won. It's not just about improving our offense without looking at our defense.
Now, if we knew Jimmer had jumped either IT or Brooks in the rotation and was going to play instead of one, rather than in addition to both, it'd be easier to work out an answer. The biggest issue in figuring out how more Jimmer could work is our coach, who's shown no inclination to play he and Reke together in the first place, and throws out the most random lineups we've seen possibly ever.
Last edited:
A little hard to swallow that anyone would seriously suggest such a thing. Jimmer has a very long way to go pass either of them. Back to reality please.
dustnroses
Prospect
Soooo....what's going on? Jimmer has logged zero minutes in tonight's game. Anyone know why? Is there some injury that hasn't been mentioned? Problems with coach?
tyreeeke
Bench
Smart is a joke, this is insanity. I think they're losing on purpose.
