Is Willie Cauley-Stein still an option at center for Sacramento Kings?

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kingdivac said:
Some of the later season games he was in foul trouble quickly even in limited minutes, I recall...but that's neither here nor there. Giles is not under the microscope now, and he'll have chances to improve.

Here's another rumor-mill report on Kings not going after Vucevic:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/nba...-unlikely-to-pursue-nikola-vucevic/ar-AACYGAz

"The Kings could look to add Dewayne Dedmon or DeAndre Jordan They also may try to sign Jonas Valanciunas while the team also hasn’t ruled out bringing back restricted free agent Willie Cauley-Stein." - there are trade-offs again, and Dedmon? No....Jordan or Valanciunas maybe.....but not too exciting.
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To be clear, that’s not another report, just a re write of Ham’s report. He’s still the only one reporting this so far, for what it’s worth.
 
kingdivac said:
ok the same RUMOR MILL report....happy?
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Didn’t mean to come off as a shot at you, more a commentary on the shoddy state of journalism these days, where one report can take on legs simply by being copied and pasted by other outlets that do no reporting or efforts to investigate on their own. It’s especially prevalent in TDOS, so always best to read the media with a discerning eye this time of year.
 
kingdivac said:
Some of the later season games he was in foul trouble quickly even in limited minutes, I recall...but that's neither here nor there. Giles is not under the microscope now, and he'll have chances to improve.

Here's another rumor-mill report on Kings not going after Vucevic:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/nba...-unlikely-to-pursue-nikola-vucevic/ar-AACYGAz

"The Kings could look to add Dewayne Dedmon or DeAndre Jordan They also may try to sign Jonas Valanciunas while the team also hasn’t ruled out bringing back restricted free agent Willie Cauley-Stein." - there are trade-offs again, and Dedmon? No....Jordan or Valanciunas maybe.....but not too exciting.
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Its a fine balancing act here. You don't want to bring in someone who will take away minutes from Bagley and Giles so it doesn't stunt their development. Especially in the 2nd or 3rd year of the deal.

You want someone who is an upgrade on what you currently have, but someone who is still good but likely to start declining so that means that they come in next year and play some solid minutes (around 25-30 mpg) and you want those minutes to start declining to the point where the player becomes a back up to Giles and Bagley both of whom you are hoping to be getting 35 or so mpg by in 2-3 years time.

if you get Vucevic, he is a 30+ minute per game player for the duration of his deal here. Not smart way to spend the money.
 
ParniValjak said:
Its a fine balancing act here. You don't want to bring in someone who will take away minutes from Bagley and Giles so it doesn't stunt their development. Especially in the 2nd or 3rd year of the deal.

You want someone who is an upgrade on what you currently have, but someone who is still good but likely to start declining so that means that they come in next year and play some solid minutes (around 25-30 mpg) and you want those minutes to start declining to the point where the player becomes a back up to Giles and Bagley both of whom you are hoping to be getting 35 or so mpg by in 2-3 years time.

if you get Vucevic, he is a 30+ minute per game player for the duration of his deal here. Not smart way to spend the money.
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I'd rather use the draft to fill that C void. There are a quite a few athletic Cs who project to be good defenders and shooters.

Yes, they would likely be worse than Cauley-Stein last year, but I don't understand the fascination with the need to bring someone in that is better than Cauley-Stein today. Why? Playoffs? Who's to say we can't make the playoffs with a C that's worse than Cauley-Stein due to the simple fact that we have young players who can get better (Fox, Hield, Bogdanovic, Barnes, Bagley, Giles), and why sacrifice the ability to collect long term assets vs. signing 28-31 year old role players? It's not like Bagley & Fox are established stars that are unrestricted free agents two years from now. We can be patient and slowly build this team around them.

I'd prefer to make a salary dump deal and draft Kabengele. He's 256 lbs so he may be able to go up against NBA Cs sooner rather than later (not to mention he projects as a good 3pt shooter and shot blocker), and we would use Bjelica in the role you just described. As Bagley, Giles, and Kabengele progress, Bjelica's minutes are reduced.

PF - Bagley (22 min) / Bjelica (26 min)
C - Kabengele (16 min) / Giles (24 min) / Bagley (8 min)

Then next year, Bjelica's minutes go down again:

PF - Bagley (34 min) / Bjelica (14 min)
C - Kabengele (20 min) / Giles (28 min)
 
ParniValjak said:
And that is the thing. WCS could just come back and bite you in a major way if you let him go as he becomes a premier big man of the competition.

Alternatively he could just as likely become an albatross contract that you regret signing.
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lol maybe as part of his usual 3 good games out of 10. I'll take my chances

He's the type of player to make a catastrophic mistake in the playoffs and ruin ur chances
 
twslam07 said:
I'd rather use the draft to fill that C void. There are a quite a few athletic Cs who project to be good defenders and shooters.

Yes, they would likely be worse than Cauley-Stein last year, but I don't understand the fascination with the need to bring someone in that is better than Cauley-Stein today. Why? Playoffs? Who's to say we can't make the playoffs with a C that's worse than Cauley-Stein due to the simple fact that we have young players who can get better (Fox, Hield, Bogdanovic, Barnes, Bagley, Giles), and why sacrifice the ability to collect long term assets vs. signing 28-31 year old role players? It's not like Bagley & Fox are established stars that are unrestricted free agents two years from now. We can be patient and slowly build this team around them.

I'd prefer to make a salary dump deal and draft Kabengele. He's 256 lbs so he may be able to go up against NBA Cs sooner rather than later (not to mention he projects as a good 3pt shooter and shot blocker), and we would use Bjelica in the role you just described. As Bagley, Giles, and Kabengele progress, Bjelica's minutes are reduced.

PF - Bagley (22 min) / Bjelica (26 min)
C - Kabengele (16 min) / Giles (24 min) / Bagley (8 min)

Then next year, Bjelica's minutes go down again:

PF - Bagley (34 min) / Bjelica (14 min)
C - Kabengele (20 min) / Giles (28 min)
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I'm on the fence with Stein, I'd be upset if they signed and overpaid him and hurt their cap (ala George Hill), but like I wrote earlier, if they create an incentive-heavy contract for him, I'd be for it - $11-13MM with large performance incentives for 3-5 years. That's undermarket for him, but he could have for example total of $2-6MM for FTs, Blocks, steals, and Rebounds improvements in different thresholds per season. FTs should be first. They may be going after a backup PG or backup SF in the draft. Having 3 picks, they could pick up a project center too if they want for cap space or if negotiations fall through. Realistically as 2nd rounders, maybe one or two of them makes the team immediately? You want the Kings to improve next year - not struggle to make .500 again - they blew it this last season; they had to raise their performance level the final 1/3 of the season and tripped up- lack of defense and lack of executions. If they let Stein go, they're putting more pressure on Bagley and Giles to fill-in defensively. I lean toward keeping Stein and trying to help him develop and create the a better work ethic. with the right contract. Who knows, they may go after Valanciunas who made $16MM+ last season. It could be that another team is willing to pay Stein bigger, well then probably you let him walk. His FTs and blocks precluded paying him big. To be paid big money, there shouldn't be any large deficiency in an NBA players game - meaning very good at many things or excellent at one thing and average in others.
 
Jkbiker said:
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/k...ikely-pursue-free-agent-center-nikola-vucevic

I hope the "Im just not that into you" line is to get Vucevic for less than max money?

But sounds like its gonna be an RFA offer to Willie, then wait n see

Gonna be a long July
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The draft will be a bit interesting to see what Kings are thinking about, and which players are more on the fence for the depth charts. As someone else pointed out earlier, Vucevic had some good seasons, followed by a great season last year which doesn't merit maximum contract. I agree. Big contract, probably.
 
We need to be like the Clips were last year and add some second-tier free agents.
Going out: Willie, Kosta, Mason/ Coming in: Lopez, Aminu, Lin, A. Rivers
*I was saying Beverly for a long time now, but once Green had costly turnover in game 6, it was Lin and Gasol that talked Green down. Austin Rivers is another solid defender, but he makes good plays and can knock down shots. If we add a few solid defenders, this team can make another leap.

Draft: Louie King, Jontay Porter, and best guard available
*We need another swing for the fence, dare to be great player, I would suggest Matthews or Porter.

Lopez, Giles
Bagley, Bjelly
Barnes, Aminu
Buddy, Bogi, (Rivers)
Fox, Lin

Deep bench/G league: Swanigan, Porter, King, another guard
The god awful inconsistency of willie is gone. Lin could run the offense and let Bogi play his natural off-guard position. Aminu is a terrific wing defender, versatile, and who just happened to have mastered his Bowenesque corner 3. Mr. drive directly into traffic every single time Mason, is gone, and I would look to Trade Yogi, now that Rivers and Lin can both play either guard position. There is basically youth at every position to develop
 
The viability of re-signing WCS really depends on Bagley's improvement with his 3 point shot.

No doubt Bagley is the future star of the Front Court. The Kings need to build the Front Court around him.

Simply put, a Bagley/WCS combo won't work unless Bagley becomes a reliable 3 point shooter (i.e. 36-40% 3P%). We all know WCS is not all of the sudden going to start shooting 3's.

So, it depends on Vlade's confidence on Bagley quickly developing his range and being able to consistently knock down the 3 pointer.

If Vlade thinks it will happen and happen soon, WCS becomes a viable option to re-sign. If Vlade doesn't want to put undue pressure on Bagley, he will let WCS walk and sign a stretch 5 (i.e. Brook Lopez, Dwayne Dedmon or Thomas Bryant) to replace WCS.

This is where idealy, if we can sign WCS to a one year QO, this would be most beneficial in the Kings assessment process of both WCS and Bagley going forward. WCS would gain unrestricted FA status next year and the Kings get a year to evaluate a WCS/Bagley combo.

Walton's pace offense will need at least one of the two big men to be a good 3 point shooter (i.e. 36-40% 3P%), to help spread the floor.
 
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joemama said:
We need to be like the Clips were last year and add some second-tier free agents.
Going out: Willie, Kosta, Mason/ Coming in: Lopez, Aminu, Lin, A. Rivers
*I was saying Beverly for a long time now, but once Green had costly turnover in game 6, it was Lin and Gasol that talked Green down. Austin Rivers is another solid defender, but he makes good plays and can knock down shots. If we add a few solid defenders, this team can make another leap.

Draft: Louie King, Jontay Porter, and best guard available
*We need another swing for the fence, dare to be great player, I would suggest Matthews or Porter.

Lopez, Giles
Bagley, Bjelly
Barnes, Aminu
Buddy, Bogi, (Rivers)
Fox, Lin

Deep bench/G league: Swanigan, Porter, King, another guard
The god awful inconsistency of willie is gone. Lin could run the offense and let Bogi play his natural off-guard position. Aminu is a terrific wing defender, versatile, and who just happened to have mastered his Bowenesque corner 3. Mr. drive directly into traffic every single time Mason, is gone, and I would look to Trade Yogi, now that Rivers and Lin can both play either guard position. There is basically youth at every position to develop
Click to expand...

This is the way they could go and probably will go - adding very competitive complementary players. The thing I like about Rivers is that he is an excellent slasher, which the Kings could use to break down defenses. Hield isn't the quickest guy off the dribble and at this point his handle still needs work. Bogs was terrible last year breaking down guys off the dribble. Barnes is ok as a 3 breaking down the defense, but his strength appears more in taking open 3s and posting up. Rivers is not a name I've seen often on this board. You might be onto something.
 
ockingsfan said:
The viability of re-signing WCS really depends on Bagley's improvement with his 3 point shot.

No doubt Bagley is the future star of the Front Court. The Kings need to build the Front Court around him.

Simply put, a Bagley/WCS combo won't work unless Bagley becomes a reliable 3 point shooter (i.e. 36-40% 3P%). We all know WCS is not all of the sudden going to start shooting 3's.

So, it depends on Vlade's confidence on Bagley quickly developing his range and being able to consistently knock down the 3 pointer.

If Vlade thinks it will happen and happen soon, WCS becomes a viable option to re-sign. If Vlade doesn't want to put undue pressure on Bagley, he will let WCS walk and sign a stretch 5 (i.e. Brook Lopez, Dwayne Dedmon or Thomas Bryant) to replace WCS.

This is where idealy, if we can sign WCS to a one year QO, this would be most beneficial in the Kings assessment process of both WCS and Bagley going forward. WCS would gain unrestricted FA status next year and the Kings get a year to evaluate a WCS/Bagley combo.

Walton's pace offense will need at least one of the two big men to be a good 3 point shooter (i.e. 36-40% 3P%), to help spread the floor.
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I understand what you're saying about Bagley's 3 point shot and Divac's assessment of his range going forward. If Bagley can't shoot an open 3, it sure makes it difficult to have a center who can't shoot outside shots. Then you'd have two guys clogging up the paint. That said, there is another consideration: WCS's lack of competitiveness on the floor. I'd argue that regardless of Bagley's outside shot, they need to let WCS go.

My guess is that Divac is a big believer in Bagley being able to make the open 3 on a consistent basis. He really didn't do too badly in that regard in his rookie year.
 
joemama said:
How about Ersan Ilyasova to team up with Bagley up front?

Marc Stein: Milwaukee is offering draft compensation this week in hopes of finding a team willing to take on the contract of Tony Snell or Ersan Ilyasova via trade, league sources say, as the Bucks seek to create added flexibility to retain elite status in the East

He is 6"10, a good 3 point shooter, under contract for 7M, and we get a "draft compensation."
Uh, yes pls

. . . with the 30th pick the Kings select . . . Darius Bazley
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I think it would depend on who the Kings target in the draft and in free agency.

The Bucks are in a hard place right now with the salary cap and 4 starters as free agents. If we are targeting one of their free agents, (i.e. Brook Lopez or Brogdon), helping the Bucks get salary cap relief may torpedo our Free Agent aspirations.

If we are not really interested in any of their Free Agents, then we could very well use a bench 3 and D (Snell) or bench Stretch 4 (Ersan) to fill out our bench. The 30th pick may help us land a player that's not within our reach at #40.

It would be an interesting option, if we don't have our eyes set on Brook Lopez or Brogdon.
 
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I think 23 mil 2 yrs a lot for tony Snell

Offer to take Ersan 's 7 mil and 60 pick for 30 pick

If they dont bite, then make offer to Lopez (let them know its coming)
 
Trade #1
MIL Gets: Future SAC 2nd (Top 55 Protected)
SAC Gets: Ersan Ilyasova & #30

Trade #2
POR Gets: #47
SAC Gets: Meyers Leonard & #25

We'd still be able to keep WCS's qualifying offer in place, but if we him & Mason walk, we'd have $16.5 mil in cap space. We could sign Tyus Jones & Lopez/Dedmon with the remaining cap, and use the room exception on one of V. Carter, Sefolosha, Brewer, Dudley, Temple, or Shumpert to be serve in the veteran mentor role. We'd cut Ilyasova and Leonard to make enough roster spots:

PG - Fox / Jones / Ferrell
SG - Hield / Bogdanovic
SF - Barnes / V. Carter
PF - Bagley / Bjelica / Swanigan
C - Lopez / Giles
#25, #30, #40, & #60

---------------------------------

Of you could flip #30 for another salary dump to move up.

Trade #3
OKC Gets: #30
SAC Gets: Andre Roberson & #21

Keep Ferrell, sign Tyus Jones using the remainder of our cap ($5.4 mil) and cut one of Leonard or Ilyasova.

PG - Fox / Jones / Ferrell
SG - Hield / Bogdanovic
SF - Barnes / Roberson
PF - Bagley / Bjelica / Swanigan
C - Giles / Leonard
#21, #25, & #40

Use the picks on a couple of Cs that fit with Bagley long term (Bol Bol, Kabengele, Claxton) and a wing (Bazley, Okpala, Windler, Samanic, Roby, McDaniels, King, Jeffries)

---------------------------------

I kind of like the first scenario better, because I'm not sure how much better of a player would be at #21 vs. #30. If Bol Bol slipped to #21, I'd probably make the 3rd trade, but other than that, I'd likely sit on #25 & #30 and see if we can bring in a C like Lopez or Dedmon. We could still keep Cauley-Stein's cap hold in place while we talk to Lopez/Dedmon as well. So if it doesn't work out with them, we could always fall back to matching Cauley-Stein's offer sheet (if it's reasonable).
 
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Do you guys really worry about Bagley's 3 point shot? There's a lot of things about Bagley that worry me like his defense and whether or not a big man like him has much of an impact on winning in today's game but his 3 point shot is something I don't worry about at all. He finished the season shooting 40% in the last 20 games or so. His shot looks great to me. He just needs experience.
 
ockingsfan said:
I think it would depend on who the Kings target in the draft and in free agency.

The Bucks are in a hard place right now with the salary cap and 4 starters as free agents. If we are targeting one of their free agents, (i.e. Brook Lopez or Brogdon), helping the Bucks get salary cap relief may torpedo our Free Agent aspirations.

If we are not really interested in any of their Free Agents, then we could very well use a bench 3 and D (Snell) or bench Stretch 4 (Ersan) to fill out our bench. The 30th pick may help us land a player that's not within our reach at #40.

It would be an interesting option, if we don't have our eyes set on Brook Lopez or Brogdon.
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I didn't like the way Brogdan played against the Raptors - its a small sample size, but gave a bad impression.
 
twslam07 said:
Trade #1
MIL Gets: Future SAC 2nd (Top 55 Protected)
SAC Gets: Ersan Ilyasova & #30

Trade #2
POR Gets: #47
SAC Gets: Meyers Leonard & #25

We'd still be able to keep WCS's qualifying offer in place, but if we him & Mason walk, we'd have $16.5 mil in cap space. We could sign Tyus Jones & Lopez/Dedmon with the remaining cap, and use the room exception on one of V. Carter, Sefolosha, Brewer, Dudley, Temple, or Shumpert to be serve in the veteran mentor role. We'd cut Ilyasova and Leonard to make enough roster spots:

PG - Fox / Jones / Ferrell
SG - Hield / Bogdanovic
SF - Barnes / V. Carter
PF - Bagley / Bjelica / Swanigan
C - Lopez / Giles
#25, #30, #40, & #60

---------------------------------

Of you could flip #30 for another salary dump to move up.

Trade #3
OKC Gets: #30
SAC Gets: Andre Roberson & #21

Keep Ferrell, sign Tyus Jones using the remainder of our cap ($5.4 mil) and cut one of Leonard or Ilyasova.

PG - Fox / Jones / Ferrell
SG - Hield / Bogdanovic
SF - Barnes / Roberson
PF - Bagley / Bjelica / Swanigan
C - Giles / Leonard
#21, #25, & #40

Use the picks on a couple of Cs that fit with Bagley long term (Bol Bol, Kabengele, Claxton) and a wing (Bazley, Okpala, Windler, Samanic, Roby, McDaniels, King, Jeffries)

---------------------------------

I kind of like the first scenario better, because I'm not sure how much better of a player would be at #21 vs. #30. If Bol Bol slipped to #21, I'd probably make the 3rd trade, but other than that, I'd likely sit on #25 & #30 and see if we can bring in a C like Lopez or Dedmon. We could still keep Cauley-Stein's cap hold in place while we talk to Lopez/Dedmon as well. So if it doesn't work out with them, we could always fall back to matching Cauley-Stein's offer sheet (if it's reasonable).
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I like your thinking but I would keep it to 1 first round pick and 1 second round pick this year. If possible I'd make one of the trades for a 2020 first round pick that way the Kings don't have to clog up the roster with too many projects. The #40 pick might end up being a waste at that point.

You know I don't like Lopez but I'd still be happy with that scenario. It's just I'd stop at Trade #2 but I'm cutting Swanigan in a second to hold onto Leonard or Ilyasova. Swanigan is Jack Cooley with a couple extra skills. If I could get some average backup minutes this season out of those other 2 guys, I'd hold on to them. Swanigan is nothing other than a big body in practice to bully around our guys. Lopez would be able to do that.
 
ESP47 said:
Do you guys really worry about Bagley's 3 point shot? There's a lot of things about Bagley that worry me like his defense and whether or not a big man like him has much of an impact on winning in today's game but his 3 point shot is something I don't worry about at all. He finished the season shooting 40% in the last 20 games or so. His shot looks great to me. He just needs experience.
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I'm not too worried about Bagley's defense - it could be tighter/better, but he brings good effort. You're right, his shooting looks very good. Giles probably puts the most consistent effort on defense on par with backup workman Koufos effort.
 
ockingsfan said:
The viability of re-signing WCS really depends on Bagley's improvement with his 3 point shot.

No doubt Bagley is the future star of the Front Court. The Kings need to build the Front Court around him.

Simply put, a Bagley/WCS combo won't work unless Bagley becomes a reliable 3 point shooter (i.e. 36-40% 3P%). We all know WCS is not all of the sudden going to start shooting 3's.

So, it depends on Vlade's confidence on Bagley quickly developing his range and being able to consistently knock down the 3 pointer.

If Vlade thinks it will happen and happen soon, WCS becomes a viable option to re-sign. If Vlade doesn't want to put undue pressure on Bagley, he will let WCS walk and sign a stretch 5 (i.e. Brook Lopez, Dwayne Dedmon or Thomas Bryant) to replace WCS.

This is where idealy, if we can sign WCS to a one year QO, this would be most beneficial in the Kings assessment process of both WCS and Bagley going forward. WCS would gain unrestricted FA status next year and the Kings get a year to evaluate a WCS/Bagley combo.

Walton's pace offense will need at least one of the two big men to be a good 3 point shooter (i.e. 36-40% 3P%), to help spread the floor.
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I am not sure that WCS/Bagley or even Kings/WCS combo will work even if Bagley becomes a knock down 3 point shooter at close to 50% and here is my reasoning for it:

King want WCS to be a consistent rim runner who passes the ball, crashes the boards, defends on the perimeter, provides a better rim protection that he has this season gone and just get his offense from lobs, drop offs and rebounds and tip ins/putbacks. That is what the Kings want him to do and that is basically what you want out of the front court player that you pair with Bagley. Ideally you want the player to have some range but its not a be all and end all of he doesn't.

What WCS want to do is be a #1 option on the team. Someone to have the offensive freedom to do what he wants. He is a free spirit that sees himself as a unicorn offensively and not defensively.

In a relationship when two people want and expect different things from one another, it never works out. This is no different! The least of the problems in this pairing is the skill sets. Its that each party wants or is expecting something totally different than what the other party wants or is offering.

If WCS was as hungry to do the things we saw him doing when we drafted him, this would not even be the debate. We would have our C going forward. The problem is he doesn't and he doesn't see himself as being one of those guys. He sees himself as a completely opposite player to what others see in him. That is the major problem in this relationship. Nothing else.
 
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