Is there an Anti-Westphal Consensus?

[Telemachus]

Bingo. This is a potential player revolt here that we can nip in the bud or we can back a coach who probably wouldn't be here next year the rate things are going.

The funny thing Westphal's actions may help bring things to a boil. By coming out publically that DMC wants a trade (true or not), things have been set in motion that can only have 2 results that I can see.
1. The other players see DMC as someone who doesn't want to be here, and it makes it hard for them all to play together as a team.
2. The players feel that DMC has been treated unfairly, and that would make it hard for them to play well for Westphal.

Neither situation is a good one if you want your team to win a lot of games.

 

[mac]

LOL right. We were stocked with talent and trying to win a championship. Too bad there wasn't a nbdl league at that time for wallace to develop. He needed game time to grow and wasn't getting it around here behind peja/hedo

edit: oops other ppl posted similar remarks.

I'm aware of that. My point is it's not like Adelman has been proven to be some superduper developer of young talent, so I don't understand why people are acting like he is. How he's doing with the Wolves now is irrelevant, because again, it goes back to him not having "I am a super young player developer" in his resume at the time when we could have gone after him. I never questioned why fans would want him back for the offense sets, or at least doing what a normal coach would do. All I'm saying is people here act like Adelman would surely develop our youth really well in the sense that'd he'd really grow them as players, and not just implement sets that work. In other words, my idea of "development" is not just finding a way to use guys to the best of their current abilities, but also adding on such that at the end of a few years they are not just the player they were. For example, Rose is no longer just some speedy athletic guy. He has a jumpshot, he runs the team. I'm not saying Adelman wouldn't, I'm just saying you don't know that he would, so quit acting like if we got him all our problems would have been solved.

 

[Rookie]

I'm aware of that. My point is it's not like Adelman has been proven to be some superduper developer of young talent, so I don't understand why people are acting like he is. How he's doing with the Wolves now is irrelevant, because again, it goes back to him not having "I am a super young player developer" in his resume at the time when we could have gone after him. I never questioned why fans would want him back for the offense sets, or at least doing what a normal coach would do. All I'm saying is people here act like Adelman would surely develop our youth really well in the sense that'd he'd really grow them as players, and not just implement sets that work. In other words, my idea of "development" is not just finding a way to use guys to the best of their current abilities, but also adding on such that at the end of a few years they are not just the player they were. For example, Rose is no longer just some speedy athletic guy. He has a jumpshot, he runs the team. I'm not saying Adelman wouldn't, I'm just saying you don't know that he would, so quit acting like if we got him all our problems would have been solved.

This is what I see from Adelman. Guys with bad attitude/good attitude played for him has nothing bad to say about the him, acutally most of them if not all had positive things to say about RA. He knows how to coach and had proven that, he knows how to get the best out of his players. He had developed young guys and most reached their potential and had a long career in the NBA, he can get the best out of a team even when their star players are down. Basically he got credibility and a proven record for developing his team and used them the best he can.

I still don't get your "superduper developer of young talent" and "adding on such tat at the end of a fewa years" statement. I happened to disagree...you try to maximize guys to their current abilities before you can even imagine that they can do something else.

Shoot it's like I'm good at math and you stick me in a journalism job so I can improve on my writing skill.

 

[KingsFan54]

After reading through all the threads on this and other sites, I've noticed something really unique in the world of sports chatter: almost everyone seems to agree that Westphal needs to be gone and that Cousins, while very immature and certainly at fault in a lot of ways, is not the main culprit in this current fiasco.

My question is: does anyone on this site actually still support Westphal, or is the fanbase 100% done with him?

Yes, I support Westphal. And I do believe him when he says that Cousins wanted a trade. Just look at his history. the guy is a spoild idiot who has had his way since high school. I applaud Westphal for not giving in to him.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

I'm aware of that. My point is it's not like Adelman has been proven to be some superduper developer of young talent, so I don't understand why people are acting like he is. How he's doing with the Wolves now is irrelevant, because again, it goes back to him not having "I am a super young player developer" in his resume at the time when we could have gone after him. I never questioned why fans would want him back for the offense sets, or at least doing what a normal coach would do. All I'm saying is people here act like Adelman would surely develop our youth really well in the sense that'd he'd really grow them as players, and not just implement sets that work. In other words, my idea of "development" is not just finding a way to use guys to the best of their current abilities, but also adding on such that at the end of a few years they are not just the player they were. For example, Rose is no longer just some speedy athletic guy. He has a jumpshot, he runs the team. I'm not saying Adelman wouldn't, I'm just saying you don't know that he would, so quit acting like if we got him all our problems would have been solved.

His playing of Rubio has been lauded by sports critics this year, and on every team he's been on, even since the Kings, even on the Rockets when they lost Yao and had a huge hole to fill, he has always been 0.500 or above.

I've never seen a team play poorly under Adelman.

 

[Kingster]

Totally wrong analysis. The warriors got new owners who wanted their own guy. He made a 10 game improvement on the warriors last year.

Here's an analysis for you. He coached for the Warrior and after his rookie year came in second to Greg Popovitch for NBA Coach of the Year. For the first time in a decade his team reached .500 ball. Sounds like a great candidate for taking over in mid-stream, right? (See below for answer to trivia quiz).

Is it really going to be different with Smart? Are we going to see the quickie buy-in with the players, rally 'round the flag, then the inevitable demoralized collapse? This tale is getting very old.

Eric Musselman
Reggie Theus
Kenny Natt
Paul Westphal
Keith Smart?

The beat goes on and on and on...

 

[Kingster]

Keith Smart actually did pretty well in Golden State. He was a victim of the new ownership defintiely and possibly (the only thing would worry me) of the philosophy change. I don't know how he came to be added to our staff, but a guy who coached last year to some success suddenly popping up 100 miles down the road as the chief assistant to a lameduck coach seems a little convenient. He might be there jsut for this type of situation.

And your point about not being able to hire anybody better than Westphal is a little off. We might not. But that's not the huge issue right now. Its Westphal himself and his relationship wiht our main players. Even a similar level mediocrity who was at least a fresh mediocrity and a fresh voice could easily be an upgrade. That's all Smart would have to be this season. And lest anybody forget, last time we did this we could have had Thibodeau for the same money as we got Westphal for.

I keep hearing about Westphal having a terrible relationship with our "main players". Yet, the only player that he obviously has a bad relationship with is clown Cousins. One poster even said after the last Cousins fiasco that he "lost the team." Just afterward, the team went out and shellacked New Orleans. How exactly does Westphal lose the team and the team goes out and wins big? Please connect those dots. Also, is it just coincidence that Cousins didn't play in the NO game (a big win) and does play in the Grizzlies game (a big loss)? Maybe the players are demoralized that management would play the guy after his eggregious behavior. Is that a possibility?

 

[swisshh]

Kingster: There were remarks by Reke previously that were not flattering of the system Westphal uses. Many players, since traded, have had issues with Westphal's system such as Hawes and Casspi. It's not just Cousins.

Also,your sig may need some editing at this point.

 

[Section 101]

I keep hearing about Westphal having a terrible relationship with our "main players". Yet, the only player that he obviously has a bad relationship with is clown Cousins. One poster even said after the last Cousins fiasco that he "lost the team." Just afterward, the team went out and shellacked New Orleans. How exactly does Westphal lose the team and the team goes out and wins big? Please connect those dots. Also, is it just coincidence that Cousins didn't play in the NO game (a big win) and does play in the Grizzlies game (a big loss)? Maybe the players are demoralized that management would play the guy after his eggregious behavior. Is that a possibility?

HAHAHA, Ya blame the guy sitting on the bench to start the 3rd quarter why they went down by 20. After he helped bring them back from 17 in the 2nd.

They beat NO because NO stunk it up not that the Kings played better than average. 0 for 15 from 3 will not give a team a chance to win.

 

[Kingster]

Kingster: There were remarks by Reke previously that were not flattering of the system Westphal uses. Many players, since traded, have had issues with Westphal's system such as Hawes and Casspi. It's not just Cousins.

Also,your sig may need some editing at this point.

With due respect, I don't think players like Tyreke making non-flattering remarks of Westphal system means there is a horrible relationship there. Certainly, that kind of thing in which players are unhappy with coache's systems is rampant around the league, whereas the the type of "relationship" struggle that you see with Cousins isn't. We can see that despite Tyreke's criticisms that he went out in the NO game and played hard, which speaks to his professionalism in this regard. As an aside, my personal speculation is that the thing that Cousins wants in a "system" is very different than what Tyreke and Thornton may want in the "system". Players aren't going to be entirely happy in any system because most are called upon to sacrifice "their game". That doesn't mean they are going to go out and throw tantrums and stop playing for their team though.

 

[Kingster]

HAHAHA, Ya blame the guy sitting on the bench to start the 3rd quarter why they went down by 20. After he helped bring them back from 17 in the 2nd.

They beat NO because NO stunk it up not that the Kings played better than average. 0 for 15 from 3 will not give a team a chance to win.

Still, even if NO stunk it up, they didn't GIVE UP. And neither did the Kings.

 

[Kingsguy881]

With due respect, I don't think players like Tyreke making non-flattering remarks of Westphal system means there is a horrible relationship there. Certainly, that kind of thing in which players are unhappy with coache's systems is rampant around the league, whereas the the type of "relationship" struggle that you see with Cousins isn't. We can see that despite Tyreke's criticisms that he went out in the NO game and played hard, which speaks to his professionalism in this regard. As an aside, my personal speculation is that the thing that Cousins wants in a "system" is very different than what Tyreke and Thornton may want in the "system". Players aren't going to be entirely happy in any system because most are called upon to sacrifice "their game". That doesn't mean they are going to go out and throw tantrums and stop playing for their team though.

Westphal called Cousins selfish, and labeled him the 'problem'. If he did that with Tyreke, Reke would have been calm about it, but he would have asked for a trade too. Tyreke and Thornton went off on NO because their perimeter defenders are weak and it was easy and fun. The team QUIT last night, they fought back in the 2nd but Reke and Thornton flat out quit. That to me tells me they do not want to play for Paul. Cousins wasn't on the court when they quit. It had nothing to do with Cousins. They had quit before Cousins got back in the game. What part of 'they don't want to play for Paul' do you fail to see/understand?

 

[Kingster]

Westphal called Cousins selfish, and labeled him the 'problem'. If he did that with Tyreke, Reke would have been calm about it, but he would have asked for a trade too. Tyreke and Thornton went off on NO because their perimeter defenders are weak and it was easy and fun. The team QUIT last night, they fought back in the 2nd but Reke and Thornton flat out quit. That to me tells me they do not want to play for Paul. Cousins wasn't on the court when they quit. It had nothing to do with Cousins. They had quit before Cousins got back in the game. What part of 'they don't want to play for Paul' do you fail to see/understand?

I couldn't see the game last night. From listening on radio it did sound like they didn't put out the effort for whatever reason. They were killed inside. It sure is strange that when Cousins comes back they play terrible interior defense, while when he's gone they have a blow-out victory. Don't you think? Westphal was there on both occassions; Cousins was only there for the loss. Can we surmise anything from that? If we can't surmise anything from that, then we certainly can't surmise that Westphal was the cause of the loss.

I'm not going to say a team has quit on a coach unless I see a string of such efforts. Quitting on a coach is a strong term. Teams lay quite a lot of eggs in the NBA during a season just because. We'll see how it goes over the next 5 games or so...

 

[jdbraver]

The kings have yet to consistently run plays. They have little ball movement and rarely make the other teams players move out of positon. Even in the wins where they faced two team that couldn't make a shot. See Luke walton. U can say its the players not executing but isn't it the coaches job to get them there?

 

[Section 101]

I couldn't see the game last night. From listening on radio it did sound like they didn't put out the effort for whatever reason. They were killed inside. It sure is strange that when Cousins comes back they play terrible interior defense, while when he's gone they have a blow-out victory. Don't you think? Westphal was there on both occassions; Cousins was only there for the loss. Can we surmise anything from that? If we can't surmise anything from that, then we certainly can't surmise that Westphal was the cause of the loss.

I'm not going to say a team has quit on a coach unless I see a string of such efforts. Quitting on a coach is a strong term. Teams lay quite a lot of eggs in the NBA during a season just because. We'll see how it goes over the next 5 games or so...

Once again your blaming the player who was on the bench. They went down by 17 in the first half and 20+ in the second half. It started in the first few mins of each half. Cuz was not in the game when they went down. He was part of the group who helped get them back in the game in the first half.

 

[rainmaker]

I couldn't see the game last night. From listening on radio it did sound like they didn't put out the effort for whatever reason. They were killed inside. It sure is strange that when Cousins comes back they play terrible interior defense, while when he's gone they have a blow-out victory. Don't you think? Westphal was there on both occassions; Cousins was only there for the loss. Can we surmise anything from that? If we can't surmise anything from that, then we certainly can't surmise that Westphal was the cause of the loss.

Huh?

We were down 29-15 before Cousins stepped on the court. You're blaming him for our lack of defense, when he was on the bench? You can't let almost the entire other team get going, double your score, and then tell Cousins to go in and put an end to it, and then blame him when he doesn't do it.

If he was good enough to cool down and lock up multiple players after they had heated up, then why is he on the bench in the first place?

 

[Kingsguy881]

I couldn't see the game last night. From listening on radio it did sound like they didn't put out the effort for whatever reason. They were killed inside. It sure is strange that when Cousins comes back they play terrible interior defense, while when he's gone they have a blow-out victory. Don't you think? Westphal was there on both occassions; Cousins was only there for the loss. Can we surmise anything from that? If we can't surmise anything from that, then we certainly can't surmise that Westphal was the cause of the loss.

I'm not going to say a team has quit on a coach unless I see a string of such efforts. Quitting on a coach is a strong term. Teams lay quite a lot of eggs in the NBA during a season just because. We'll see how it goes over the next 5 games or so...

First things first, Cousins was on the bench when they were getting ran. Second of all, you can't compare a backcourt of Conley and defensive ace Tony Allen to the backcourt that NO put on the floor (Belinelli? Come on, be real). And Okafor is not known as an offensive player like Gasol is so please stop it. Bottom line, don't set your players up for failure, like putting Jimmer on Conley. Thats just dumb and shows a lack of any comprehension of whats going on.

 

[Bricklayer]

I thin the Cousins argument is that he's such a buzzkill chemistry killer that somehow his mere presence causes our entire team to go into a funk. That is, to say the least, a rather grand stretch.

 

[Geoff]

Westphal has got to go. It's that simple for me.

 

[Lockehead]

Havent made up my mind about WP yet. Some lineups were horrible, but from watching the games i don't think they were necessarily the cause of our horrible performances. To me, it all comes down to the players on the court. And i've seen a lot of screwups from those players on the court that makes me doubt that WP deserves as much blame as he's getting at the moment. It's not WP's fault that we're not transitioning back onto defense. It's not his fault that nobody's cutting to the basket when Cousins is in the low post. When Jimmer has the ball, it's not WP's fault the other 1,2,3/5th of the team is at a standstill instead of moving to get open shots. It's not WP's fault that our players force tough one on one baskets or kill the shotclock leading to bad decisions. The rotations play a part, of course. But most of the things that are, IMO, killing us are simple screwups from our players. Is that more on WP, the players, or maybe the FO? More games are needed before the situation can be put onto WP imo.

 

[ParniValjak]

Havent made up my mind about WP yet. Some lineups were horrible, but from watching the games i don't think they were necessarily the cause of our horrible performances. To me, it all comes down to the players on the court. And i've seen a lot of screwups from those players on the court that makes me doubt that WP deserves as much blame as he's getting at the moment. It's not WP's fault that we're not transitioning back onto defense. It's not his fault that nobody's cutting to the basket when Cousins is in the low post. When Jimmer has the ball, it's not WP's fault the other 1,2,3/5th of the team is at a standstill instead of moving to get open shots. It's not WP's fault that our players force tough one on one baskets or kill the shotclock leading to bad decisions. The rotations play a part, of course. But most of the things that are, IMO, killing us are simple screwups from our players. Is that more on WP, the players, or maybe the FO? More games are needed before the situation can be put onto WP imo.

So in your view Westphal is only responsible for rotations?!

Coach is a lot more than that obviously. Amongst a few things he is also motivator...someone that is responsible for getting his team up and about and knowing which buttons to push to get them going. Throwing players under the bus does not get them going...it gets them to quit.

A lot of the things that you are mentioning are responsibility of the coach. If we had a clear offensive set maybe the rest of the team wouldn't be standing around when Jimmer has the ball. Maybe, just maybe they will be getting into their spots on the court and executing their offensive sets. It may well be that Westphal's fault that players go one on one or kill the shot clock precisely because no one known what they are supposed to be doing and that is on the coach. I have not once this season seen us run a set play. Not once! Whose fault is that?

And if players are looking lost out there or not interested it is absolutely on the coach. Its a first sign that the players are tuning him out. In other words he has lost the players. It is interesting that every year to date Westphal has lost the players, only to get them back once he start running something resembling a system, raise the hopes for next season and go back to wacky stuff all over again.

Its time to do the right thing and cut our ties with a coach that is clearly not up to it and whose tenure with the team is ending in pretty much the same fashion as all the previous ones. When he gets question by players he throws them under the bus for daring to question him but he doesn't realise if he had a system that worked to start of with, chances are those questions would never be asked.

 

[Uncia03]

Havent made up my mind about WP yet. Some lineups were horrible, but from watching the games i don't think they were necessarily the cause of our horrible performances. To me, it all comes down to the players on the court. And i've seen a lot of screwups from those players on the court that makes me doubt that WP deserves as much blame as he's getting at the moment. It's not WP's fault that we're not transitioning back onto defense. It's not his fault that nobody's cutting to the basket when Cousins is in the low post. When Jimmer has the ball, it's not WP's fault the other 1,2,3/5th of the team is at a standstill instead of moving to get open shots. It's not WP's fault that our players force tough one on one baskets or kill the shotclock leading to bad decisions. The rotations play a part, of course. But most of the things that are, IMO, killing us are simple screwups from our players. Is that more on WP, the players, or maybe the FO? More games are needed before the situation can be put onto WP imo.

I've never been a Westphal hater. I wasn't happy with him last year when it took him forever to get the rotations down, but I didn't feel as if the team ever quit on him. I was ok with him being our coach this year simply because I felt that having some consistancy would be very good for the players and the team.

However, after watching the Denver game, I really felt that the team has quit on him. All the things you list out, are examples of the team quitting on him.
Cousins had a dominant game when he finally got in, and it seemed as if he was doing it almost to spite Westphal.

I think the bottom line is that the players look around at their team and say, "We've got a ton of talent here. There is no way we should lose to teams who are missing their best players."
Then due to the coaches' system they are getting blown out. They have to work extremely hard for any kind of scoring and it's wearing on them.

I just don't think this is a situation which can continue.

 

[swisshh]

With due respect, I don't think players like Tyreke making non-flattering remarks of Westphal system means there is a horrible relationship there. Certainly, that kind of thing in which players are unhappy with coache's systems is rampant around the league, whereas the the type of "relationship" struggle that you see with Cousins isn't. We can see that despite Tyreke's criticisms that he went out in the NO game and played hard, which speaks to his professionalism in this regard. As an aside, my personal speculation is that the thing that Cousins wants in a "system" is very different than what Tyreke and Thornton may want in the "system". Players aren't going to be entirely happy in any system because most are called upon to sacrifice "their game". That doesn't mean they are going to go out and throw tantrums and stop playing for their team though.

I'm not sure where the big difference here is. Cousins has still played hard this season despite his disagreement with Westphal. Even that disagreement he took to Westphal in private, out of public eye.

 

[Kingster]

Once again your blaming the player who was on the bench. They went down by 17 in the first half and 20+ in the second half. It started in the first few mins of each half. Cuz was not in the game when they went down. He was part of the group who helped get them back in the game in the first half.

I'm not blaming anyone; I'm just pointing out the faulty logic in the argument.

 

[Kingster]

I'm not sure where the big difference here is. Cousins has still played hard this season despite his disagreement with Westphal. Even that disagreement he took to Westphal in private, out of public eye.

Oh great. Let's all applaud Cousins for screaming at his coach behind closed doors because the baby doesn't get what Westphal wants to give him. Waaaa, waaaa, waaa. And let's applaud him for him getting into several assistant coache's faces for the same reason. WaAAAA, WAAA. And let's applaud him for a multitude of offenses that we haven't heard about because you know there were more than just the incidents that were reported (if you don't think that I have an island in the Mojave desert I want to sell you...)The guy is a paragon of basketball virtue. He solidifies the team. He's just a blue collar guy who doesn't talk much, plays the game hard, doesn't do incredibly stupid things on the court, doesn't grimace on every foul call, and best of all, he's extremely coachable. Just the sort of guy you want on your team - the glue guy. Calling on the best baby-sitters in the NBA. Can you sit with baby Cousins? If you can mollify him - by whatever means - then you're on our list. These means might include cajoling, tempting, crying or begging. Whatever you do, keep him happy. He's the guy we want to build this team around.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Oh great. Let's all applaud Cousins for screaming at his coach behind closed doors because the baby doesn't get what Westphal wants to give him. Waaaa, waaaa, waaa. And let's applaud him for him getting into several assistant coache's faces for the same reason. WaAAAA, WAAA. And let's applaud him for a multitude of offenses that we haven't heard about because you know there were more than just the incidents that were reported (if you don't think that I have an island in the Mojave desert I want to sell you...)The guy is a paragon of basketball virtue. He solidifies the team. He's just a blue collar guy who doesn't talk much, plays the game hard, doesn't do incredibly stupid things on the court, doesn't grimace on every foul call, and best of all, he's extremely coachable. Just the sort of guy you want on your team - the glue guy. Calling on the best baby-sitters in the NBA. Can you sit with baby Cousins? If you can mollify him - by whatever means - then you're on our list. These means might include cajoling, tempting, crying or begging. Whatever you do, keep him happy. He's the guy we want to build this team around.

You're clearly lost in the land of trolling now.

 

[Spike]

Oh great. Let's all applaud Cousins for screaming at his coach behind closed doors because the baby doesn't get what Westphal wants to give him. Waaaa, waaaa, waaa. And let's applaud him for him getting into several assistant coache's faces for the same reason. WaAAAA, WAAA. And let's applaud him for a multitude of offenses that we haven't heard about because you know there were more than just the incidents that were reported (if you don't think that I have an island in the Mojave desert I want to sell you...)The guy is a paragon of basketball virtue. He solidifies the team. He's just a blue collar guy who doesn't talk much, plays the game hard, doesn't do incredibly stupid things on the court, doesn't grimace on every foul call, and best of all, he's extremely coachable. Just the sort of guy you want on your team - the glue guy. Calling on the best baby-sitters in the NBA. Can you sit with baby Cousins? If you can mollify him - by whatever means - then you're on our list. These means might include cajoling, tempting, crying or begging. Whatever you do, keep him happy. He's the guy we want to build this team around.

Seriously? Asking for a meeting behind closed doors is exactly what you would expect of a professional. He tried to take that route, and it bit him in the ***. I usually side with coaches, but I'm with DMC on this one.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Seriously? Asking for a meeting behind closed doors is exactly what you would expect of a professional. He tried to take that route, and it bit him in the ***. I usually side with coaches, but I'm with DMC on this one.

Word. I think I have a pretty lengthy posting history of a low tolerance for malcontents and prima donnas. I even supported retaining Westphal through the season because I think firing him would be a distraction. Then he went haywire, took this public and all these little things come to the surface like refusing a meeting. Even this supposed technical foul in practice you wonder about. We knew when we drafted him that he needed to be treated with kid gloves and that he was a special talent and PW either doesn't realize that or doesn't know how to handle the situation.

 

[Kingster]

Seriously? Asking for a meeting behind closed doors is exactly what you would expect of a professional. He tried to take that route, and it bit him in the ***. I usually side with coaches, but I'm with DMC on this one.

Oh, yeah. What an incredible professional Cousins is. He's asked for a closed-doors meeting. Now behind closed doors he scream at his coach in a very professional manner. Hurray for Cousins!

 

[Section 101]

Oh, yeah. What an incredible professional Cousins is. He's asked for a closed-doors meeting. Now behind closed doors he scream at his coach in a very professional manner. Hurray for Cousins!

You were in the meeting? You know he screamed at him? You can't take Westfails word he's already been proven a liar about the trade demand.