Is there an Anti-Westphal Consensus?

captain bill

captain bill

All-Star
After reading through all the threads on this and other sites, I've noticed something really unique in the world of sports chatter: almost everyone seems to agree that Westphal needs to be gone and that Cousins, while very immature and certainly at fault in a lot of ways, is not the main culprit in this current fiasco.

My question is: does anyone on this site actually still support Westphal, or is the fanbase 100% done with him?
 
It seems to be near total consensus. Even former Westphal supporters like myself have soured on him. In reading this and other forums over the past few days I have not seen one single person in full support of Westphal. Even those who blame Cousins still seem to agree that Westphal needs to go. Same thing on the radio. Same thing among reporters, etc.
 
captain bill said:
After reading through all the threads on this and other sites, I've noticed something really unique in the world of sports chatter: almost everyone seems to agree that Westphal needs to be gone and that Cousins, while very immature and certainly at fault in a lot of ways, is not the main culprit in this current fiasco.

My question is: does anyone on this site actually still support Westphal, or is the fanbase 100% done with him?
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Westphal has 61 games left before his contract ends - few more if Kings make playoffs...:) If you want him fired now the best you're likely to get is a Keith Smart as interim coach for rest of the season. No experienced NBA coach without a job of any standing is likely to come in during this latest Kings turmoil and Maloofs are unlikely to pay enough to get such a top tier coach. I mean we can talk all we want about Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Jeff Van Gundy but it ain't likely to happen at least in middle of this season.
 
PurpleHaze said:
Westphal has 61 games left before his contract ends - few more if Kings make playoffs...:) If you want him fired now the best you're likely to get is a Keith Smart as interim coach for rest of the season. No experienced NBA coach without a job of any standing is likely to come in during this latest Kings turmoil and Maloofs are unlikely to pay enough to get such a top tier coach. I mean we can talk all we want about Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Jeff Van Gundy but it ain't likely to happen at least in middle of this season.
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At this point I'm totally fine with handing Westphal his walking papers and letting Smart take over. I think Westphal is doing more harm to the team than good at this point. I don't see the point in keeping him around when there's another NBA coach directly under him that can take his place. Let Smart have a go at it. If the Kings do better under him, you've found your new coach. If they don't, then find a non bargain basement coach in the off season.
 
PurpleHaze said:
I mean we can talk all we want about Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Jeff Van Gundy but it ain't likely to happen at least in middle of this season.
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I'm drooling on the idea of Sloan imposing a Stockton/Malone pick-n-roll using Evans-DMC or Fredette/DMC. But Sloan would probably return as Jazz coach first before even thinking about coaching the Kings.
 
I too was a Westphal supporter. The players look like they are souring on him, though not as blatantly as Cousins. Combine that with our systemless offense and those articles section found on his prior coaching stints, and i think its time to move on. I'll give him a few more games if Cousins gets his head on straight and we start to perform better with a semblance of a real offense.
 
I have not been happy with the execution in our three losses this year, and I put a lot of that on Westphal. However, I do think that in both of the wins we looked good - as good as can be expected for being young and having basically no training camp, so the coaching aspect is not a lost cause.

Probably everybody is to blame in the Cousins/Westphal debacle. I'm inclined to think that Cousins is more important to this franchise than Westphal (whom I do see as replaceable).

However, I do NOT want to fire Westphal to make Cousins happy. That kind of pandering to a player can only hurt us in the end. So my basic take is that Cousins needs to shape up, and he needs to shape up with Westphal on board. If he can't, then he does come very close to being that "cancer" in the locker room that we can't really afford. I would guess that we could trade Cousins to the Pistons for Monroe and a pick, even with the current mess going on. And if so, and if Cousins can't behave by the end of the year, we might be best off doing that. We would take a small step down in talent, but what good is talent when it won't listen to the coaching staff and won't play a team-oriented game. If Cousins can't shape up for us, let's deal him for 90 cents on the dollar and let him be somebody else's problem. Then we can go about figuring out what to do about our head coach.

Obviously, Cousins getting his act together is the best case scenario, but I don't think firing Westphal to appease him is the next-best one.
 
There is no hope for Westphal here. The team hasn't grown and shows no signs of growing. His system does not get the best out of his best talent. In certain areas, such as transition defense, the team has regressed. Without Dalembert, the interior defense takes a step backwards.

He's flaming out and taking the team down with him. He's a cancer of a coach right now.
 
I want Westphal fired tomorrow and I don't care how it appears. I think it would make the team happy.
 
Until this incident perhaps more a plurality than a majority wanted him gone. But after it...

Having Westphal serve out his 3rd year as lameduck coach was not a great situation, but it was not disastrous as long as he just kept things moving generally forward. Didn't have to succeed wildly. Just run a smooth enough lockerroom and win enough games to keep people upbeat, build chemistry, and get people thinking next year is going to be our return to the stage year. If he could do that, then he would have been ok. Not decorated, not retained, but ok as the guy who filled in as sacrifical lamb during the rebuild years.

But after yet another ugly damaging start...that just can't be. Paul Westphal carries absolutely no cachet beyond his immediate results. He has not been here long term, we haven't won with him. Nobody in fact has won with him since the mid-90s. Neither big $$ or big expectations are attached to him. His success or failure and desirability as a temporary option are entirely dependent on his immeidate results. And the immediate results he is having are not just damaging, they are flat out frightening for the future of the franchise. You can't have your fans booing the team's potential franchise combo guard and starting trade him threads because of an offense you are insiting on. You can't get in a fight with the team's potential franchise center and then go out and tell the world he's demanded a trade, which he denies. Adn all of this while the city is trying to finally build an arena to keep the team and the impoverished owners have to make tough decisions about how much they are willing to spend. You just can't do those things. Those are critical failures. You want to jerk Donte Greene around or make Cisco your 12th man or just whatever, those are shall we say "quirks". Unpleasant but tolerable. You are part of scenarios threatening the two most valuable assets this franchise has had in a decade...you better bee Phil Jackson. On a 10yr deal.
 
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I rewatched the 2nd half of the game, and heard the postgame for the first time. Westy looked scared for his job to me.

J Jones asked him if Cousins would play next game. Westy said it's on DeMarcus. Jones asked how so? Westy said, well if he doesn't want to be here.....we want players who want to be here.

Later Jones asked if he knew why Cousins demanded a trade? Westy said of course. Jones then asked him would you like to make a comment. Westy said, no!

I think it scares Westy greatly for whatever Cousins was angry about to get out into the media. Would really put his shortcomings as our coach, and in his system into the spotlight.

Also think he exaggerated what Cousins said, again. Given Cousins and his agents comments, along with what Jones has tweeted about him not asking out, I tend to doubt Cousins flat out said I don't want to be here, in the context Westy is putting it in, for deception in favor of saving his job I might add.

From Cousins agent:
"If you come home and complain about something and your wife says, 'If you're tired of the way I cook, then why don't you just divorce me?' do you take that seriously?" Cousins' agent, John Greig, asked after Monday's chat with Kings basketball president Geoff Petrie. "Didn't Dwight Howard ask for a trade? I'm still not sure what the point (of the one-game sitdown was), or how this thing moves forward."
 
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I'm basically in favor of making a change if things aren't working. Right now the question is simply whether Westphal's system just doesn't work or whether the guys just aren't executing properly.

What I don't agree with is several sentiments around the board. Firstly, that Westphal is worse than Musselman, Theus and Kenny Natt. I really have nothing to say to that. If you think Kenny Natt is a better coach than Westphal I wish you the best of luck. Secondly, somehow a lot of people here seem to have this idea that Rick Adelman is the greatest coach of all time at developing young players. Err ... Gerald Wallace anyone? Oh I get it, he developed Wallace, but it only showed when he went to Charlotte. Gotcha.
 
mac said:
I'm basically in favor of making a change if things aren't working. Right now the question is simply whether Westphal's system just doesn't work or whether the guys just aren't executing properly.

What I don't agree with is several sentiments around the board. Firstly, that Westphal is worse than Musselman, Theus and Kenny Natt. I really have nothing to say to that. If you think Kenny Natt is a better coach than Westphal I wish you the best of luck. Secondly, somehow a lot of people here seem to have this idea that Rick Adelman is the greatest coach of all time at developing young players. Err ... Gerald Wallace anyone? Oh I get it, he developed Wallace, but it only showed when he went to Charlotte. Gotcha.
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You could say he failed Wallace but he did pretty good with Williams, Hedo, Peja, and Bibby.
 
mac said:
Secondly, somehow a lot of people here seem to have this idea that Rick Adelman is the greatest coach of all time at developing young players. Err ... Gerald Wallace anyone? Oh I get it, he developed Wallace, but it only showed when he went to Charlotte. Gotcha.
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Err... can you seriously not see the MAJOR difference here?!

Adelman was coaching a contender at the time where we were in win now mode. Furthermore, those teams were ridiculously deep and we just happened to have an "All-star" at SF backed up by Hedo who was a skilled versatile player off the bench that played SF and sometimes spot minutes at PF and even SG at times. For one season we also had Jimmy Jackson in the rotations and that is the year that Hedo's minutes went down.

This time around we are not a contender. We are a young, talented, developing team. Who do you think Adelman would play in from of Cousins, Evans, Thornton, Hickson, JT et al?! He no doubt would still play Hayes for some 30 minutes per game but we are a young, developing team and Adelman has done pretty well with Peja, Heod, Bibby etc.... Not to mention that he has the ability to get the best out of the players, whether young or old. Is it surprising that many of the players that played for Adelman had their best seasons while playing for him?!

With Hayes and Cousins on the team, there is no doubt that Adelman would be using those guys to run the offense. Oh, and he seems to be doing pretty darn well with the Timberwolves at the moment who just about as young as we are.
 
This "no offense" philosophy is just not helpful for anyone. Even if i thought Westphal was the nicest, most well reasoned man in sports (i don't) I'd still want to see a new coach in here.

his job is to organise and galvanise and he's done neither IMO.

If cousins was the only one crying about the offense i'd be concerned, he's not. This goes way back to Hawes and Martin, his treatment of Greene and JT. The minutes for Luther Head, Pooh.

I know he's been handcuffed at some points but he's just an off kilter guy for me and i'd rather we started a fresh.
 
RookieOfTheDay said:
You could say he failed Wallace but he did pretty good with Williams, Hedo, Peja, and Bibby.
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I still don't get the Rick Adelman failed G Wallace. I think G Wallace came in at the wrong time. It's not like we were a rebuiding team where we can developed rookies, he came into a contending team. It's either the rookie is ready to come in and support or not...Hedo was and G Wallace wasn't. There was really no room for development except in practice and from what I've read GWallace wasn't happy about practice. We're not fighting for a playoff spot during that time ...we were trying to contend.

oops didn't read Carolija.
 
The issues are completely separate. I haven't attended practices, but I have a hard time thinking Cousins isn't the main culprit. It's got to be fatiguing trying to run a team with someone presumably so immature and toxic constantly contradicting you.

That said, I totally don't understand PW and the FO's response this very last time. It's simply weird.

Whether or not PW is doing a good job is reflected in his record with the team.
 
mac said:
I'm basically in favor of making a change if things aren't working. Right now the question is simply whether Westphal's system just doesn't work or whether the guys just aren't executing properly.

What I don't agree with is several sentiments around the board. Firstly, that Westphal is worse than Musselman, Theus and Kenny Natt. I really have nothing to say to that. If you think Kenny Natt is a better coach than Westphal I wish you the best of luck. Secondly, somehow a lot of people here seem to have this idea that Rick Adelman is the greatest coach of all time at developing young players. Err ... Gerald Wallace anyone? Oh I get it, he developed Wallace, but it only showed when he went to Charlotte. Gotcha.
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LOL right. We were stocked with talent and trying to win a championship. Too bad there wasn't a nbdl league at that time for wallace to develop. He needed game time to grow and wasn't getting it around here behind peja/hedo

edit: oops other ppl posted similar remarks.
 
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I was a Westphal "supporter" only as much as I think mid-season coaching changes are usually a complete waste, there's no real good candidates out there and this season is even going to be worse than usual thanks to the tight schedule due to lockout. I would have liked him replaced in the offseason but since he wasn't I thought he should ride out the season so no wrong messages are sent to players that they can get a coach fired, etc.

Unfortunately while firing Westphal may send that message and may have no in-game rewards it appears that the rift between him and DMC and possibly other less outspoken players is so bad that he can not stay and jeopardize are future any longer. He was always a placeholder and so when the core of the franchise is in jeopardy the choice is easy. Westy out. Yesterday please.
 
I must be in the minority. I still back the coach but things should of been handled quietly. DMC is a big baby and needs to grow up. Would i trade him? No unless we get a fair deal in trade which wouldn't ever happen.... Just my opinion..
 
pilot305 said:
I still back the coach but things should of been handled quietly.
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And who's fault is that? PW making this public flies in the face of everything this organization has done for at least the last 15 years. DMC is a big baby. PW is supposed to be an experienced pro.
 
I still back the coach. And that position isn't without test because I do read many, many posts on the different threads here that constantly tell me that many of my fellow posters want to get rid of Westphal, some since 2009 when I was first introduced to this site.

I don't find him faultless, it's just that so many opinions I have read here don't lead me to ask him to go. Adelman, whom I liked and didn't want to go, is now a saint because he is gone. All the other coaches we've had follow far behind Westphal. Are there better ones out there? I suppose but I wouldn't want to have to pick one.
 
Westphal or no Westphal depends upon who replaces him. What's Smart going to do that Westphal hasn't done? He didn't work out at Golden State. Why will he work out with the Kings? Especially with no practice time, no preseason, no summer league. It's Westphal or bust for this season. We'll see at the end of the season. But even then, you have to ask yourself what kind of bank are the Maloofs willing to spend on a coach. If they are only willing to spend around the same amount of money, chances are you aren't going to get anyone better than Westphal.
 
Kingster said:
Westphal or no Westphal depends upon who replaces him. What's Smart going to do that Westphal hasn't done? He didn't work out at Golden State. Why will he work out with the Kings? Especially with no practice time, no preseason, no summer league. It's Westphal or bust for this season. We'll see at the end of the season. But even then, you have to ask yourself what kind of bank are the Maloofs willing to spend on a coach. If they are only willing to spend around the same amount of money, chances are you aren't going to get anyone better than Westphal.
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Totally wrong analysis. The warriors got new owners who wanted their own guy. He made a 10 game improvement on the warriors last year.
 
Kingster said:
Westphal or no Westphal depends upon who replaces him. What's Smart going to do that Westphal hasn't done? He didn't work out at Golden State. Why will he work out with the Kings? Especially with no practice time, no preseason, no summer league. It's Westphal or bust for this season. We'll see at the end of the season. But even then, you have to ask yourself what kind of bank are the Maloofs willing to spend on a coach. If they are only willing to spend around the same amount of money, chances are you aren't going to get anyone better than Westphal.
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Keith Smart actually did pretty well in Golden State. He was a victim of the new ownership defintiely and possibly (the only thing would worry me) of the philosophy change. I don't know how he came to be added to our staff, but a guy who coached last year to some success suddenly popping up 100 miles down the road as the chief assistant to a lameduck coach seems a little convenient. He might be there jsut for this type of situation.

And your point about not being able to hire anybody better than Westphal is a little off. We might not. But that's not the huge issue right now. Its Westphal himself and his relationship wiht our main players. Even a similar level mediocrity who was at least a fresh mediocrity and a fresh voice could easily be an upgrade. That's all Smart would have to be this season. And lest anybody forget, last time we did this we could have had Thibodeau for the same money as we got Westphal for.
 
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Bricklayer said:
Keith Smart actually did pretty well in Golden State. He was a victim of the new ownership defintiely and possibly (the only thing would worry me) of the philosophy change. I don't know how he came to be added to our staff, but a guy who coached last year to csome success suddenly popping up 100 miles down the road as the chief assistant to a lameduck coach seems a little convenient. He might be there jsut for this type of situation.

And your poitn aobut not being able to hire anybody better than Westphal is a little off. We might not. But that's not the huge issue right now. Its Westphal himself and his realationaship wiht our main players. Even a similar level mediocrity who was at least a fresh mediocrity and a fresh voice could easily be an upgrade. That's all Smart would have to be this season. And lest anybody forget, last time we did this we could have had Thibodeau for the same money as we got Westphal for.
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Bingo. This is a potential player revolt here that we can nip in the bud or we can back a coach who probably wouldn't be here next year the rate things are going.
 
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