Interesting take....

#1
http://www.allsports.com/cgi-bin/showstory.cgi?story_id=56806

Sportsticker Pro Basketball Notebook

November 18, 2005
By Chris Bernucca
SportsTicker Pro Basketball Editor


BRISTOL, Connecticut (Ticker) - This seems as good a time as any to revisit the Chris Webber trade, doesn't it?
You remember the deal, don't you? The Sacramento Kings found a sucker in the Philadelphia 76ers, who wanted an overrated, aging forward with an extremely balky knee and $62 million left on his contract.
In return, the Kings received Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and Brian Skinner, three bigs who provided depth and toughness for an admittedly soft team and - most important - future salary cap flexibility.
How's that working out?
The short answer is evident in the standings. Heading into Friday's test at Miami, Philadelphia had won six straight games to climb to the top of the Atlantic Division with a 6-3 mark. Sacramento is 3-5 with two home losses and in last place in the Pacific Division.
The long answer doesn't change the picture much. Webber, who supposedly isn't anywhere near the player he was before his microfracture surgery, is averaging 20.4 points, 9.9 rebounds and 3.2 assists. Those are pretty darn close to his career numbers of 21.8, 10.1 and 4.5.
Meanwhile, Thomas - who declared himself a starter in training camp - has yet to start and is averaging 5.1 points and 4.1 rebounds. And he is the best of the bunch.
Skinner is averaging 2.3 points and 1.4 rebounds and Williamson has seven points and four DNP-CDs. Those are Michael Bradley numbers - who, by the way, also came to the Sixers in the Webber deal.
More important, Webber is doing in Philadelphia exactly what he no longer is doing in Sacramento - making his teammates better. The 76ers have three players shooting better than 55 percent from the field and are averaging almost 104 points per game, second in the NBA.
And most important, Webber seems to be enjoying the game again, which could not be said at the end of last season.
The Kings? Well, they certainly look different. In fact, you can get a real good look at them, because they don't move without the ball nearly as much as they did when Webber was the focal point of their offense.
However, you have to look real hard to get a glimpse of Thomas, Williamson and Skinner, who don't play much and don't produce much when they do.
Back to Webber. He was a bad fit for Jim O'Brien's offense, which was built around sprint-outs and dribble penetration to create openings in an unbalanced floor that shooters and drivers could exploit.
Enter Maurice Cheeks, who has installed a system that fits his players rather than vice versa. The Sixers are running nearly half their sets through Webber, who has the best hands and passing skills of any big man in the NBA and is using them to turn his teammates into lethal weapons.
The results have been astonishing. Andre Iguodala is shooting 60 percent from the field and averaging 12.8 points. Steven Hunter is shooting 59 percent and averaging a career-high 8.7 points. Reserve Lee Nailon is shooting 55 percent.
And John Salmons is shooting 52 percent while averaging 9.7 points off the bench. In his fourth season, Salmons is playing for his fifth coach. But Cheeks - using Webber's skills as a guide - is the first to let him find his way.
"With a guy like John and his personality, you just have to leave him alone," superstar guard Allen Iverson said. "If you leave him alone, you get the best out of him. For the first time in his career, he doesn't have someone just screaming his name every second he's in the game."
Iverson also is meshing with Webber, which has been the primary concern since the trade was made. Their ability to work the pick-and-roll seems to improve with every game, which Iverson noticed after Tuesday's win over Toronto.
"Chris even took it to another level," he said. "He hit the jumper at the top and then he drove the ball to the basket and got to the free-throw line for a couple of dunks. That's what we need."
Webber also is unlike some big men who will not throw an outlet pass because it creates a fast break they will not be a part of. Perhaps to reduce some of the pounding on his knee, Webber seems content to get the ball into Iverson's hands as quickly as possible.
"We should look for each other no matter what," Webber said. "If he misses 15 shots in a row, I'm still going to throw him that same pass because I know he can make the next shot. ... Our resumes should just say enough for themselves to pass the ball."
Passing doesn't seem to come as easy as it used to for the Kings, who got a long enough look at their new trio last season to realize it would have to upgrade elsewhere. They have tried to replace Webber's offense with Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Bonzi Wells, a pair of - to borrow a phrase from George Karl - ball-stoppers.
There is no denying that Abdur-Rahim and Wells can score. However, neither is a player that comes to mind when you think of moving without the ball, making smart and unselfish passes and thriving outside of isolation situations.
As a result, Kings coach Rick Adelman is calling more plays than he ever has and is relying less and less on the motion offense that has been the trademark of the team since he arrived. After a recent loss, he described his bench's play as "all 1-on-1," which is hard to imagine when talking about the Kings.
Detractors will point to the fact that the Kings can deal from depth, which is true. There are teams such as the Los Angeles Lakers, New Jersey and even San Antonio that could use an extra big man. Sacramento's frontourt logjam would be alleviated, even by trading big for small, usually a no-no in the NBA.
However, those who try to justify the Kings' position by pointing to Webber's knee are misguided. If Webber goes down - and he is working on a year-plus of relatively healthy basketball right now - that does not make the Kings better. It only makes the Sixers worse.
Right now, Webber is healthy. So right now, ask yourself this: Which team - Sixers or Kings - has the better chance of winning 50 games, a division title and a playoff round or two?
 
#3
exactly. these were the same thoughts i had posted a few days ago. chris webber is putting up over 20 points and 9 rebounds. for some reason it seemed like a good deal at the time, but now i'm starting to feel as though we got the short end of it.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#4
SAR is our PF, not KT, Skinner or Nasty. SAR is averaging 15.2, 8.1, and 3.7 - actually handing out more assists than Webber is. I expect the points and assists will go up as everyone gets more comfortable in their roles.

"However, those who try to justify the Kings' position by pointing to Webber's knee are misguided. If Webber goes down - and he is working on a year-plus of relatively healthy basketball right now - that does not make the Kings better. It only makes the Sixers worse."

What? A year-plus of healthy? He was skipping back-to-backs and not practicing. Healthy - no. Maybe this year, but not when we traded him.

The point isn't if Webber goes down do the Kings get better - of course not, HE ISN'T ON OUR TEAM, YOU FOOL. That's like saying if Barnes or Darius or BJ go down our team isn't any better. He's got a clean grasp of the obvious, doesn't he? The point is, if Webber goes down we DON'T have $20 mil/yr sitting on the bench, Philly does.

I think this article only works because the Kings are off to a slow start, which appears to be turning around. Give it another month and let's see how things stand, and if Webber is still plaing on the 3rd game in 4 nights or if the Kings still look like a sub 50-win team or even if KT, Skinner and Nasty are still on the roster or not.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#5
Ok...well, its the elephant in the corner anyway, and I'm not going to run around closing down threads discussing nationally available articles about the Kings. (Tyrant, sorry for closing your thread a few days ago, but this topic is always controversial).

Anyway, now that we've had a little bit of success ourselves maybe this makes this a more academic question. I of course think we were fools and haven't changed that opinion once in the past 8 months. But Webb's gone and is not coming back, and we've got what we've got. So this is all really more just a referendum on whether Geoff is infallible or not (the answer would be: No), and of course another colorful chapter in the hefty volume "The Rise and Fall of the Kings Empire".
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#6
Warhawk said:
The point is, if Webber goes down we DON'T have $20 mil/yr sitting on the bench, Philly does.
Oh yes we do, and that has always been the indefensible point about that "trade". Just about any decent set of bigs, or better yet just one good one, could give us the junk minutes the Philly trio do for a tiny fraction of the cost. $18 mil for those kinds of players and that kind of production is just about the worst NBA bargain West of Zeke's office at the Garden.
 
#7
SAR wasn't traded for Webber. We used our exception for SAR. If we still had Webber, we could have used that exception for something else (like backcourt depth for example). As it is, we used the mid-level to patch a hole, taking an obvious downgrade at the position because we couldn't move the scrubs we got in exchange. KT was playing at the best he probably ever will last season and we still couldn't trade his overpaid *** in the offseason.
 
#8
Zyphen said:
SAR wasn't traded for Webber. We used our exception for SAR. If we still had Webber, we could have used that exception for something else (like backcourt depth for example). As it is, we used the mid-level to patch a hole, taking an obvious downgrade at the position because we couldn't move the scrubs we got in exchange. KT was playing at the best he probably ever will last season and we still couldn't trade his overpaid *** in the offseason.
Not quite right. First of all, SAR was the best talent available for the midlevel exception -- even Antoine freakin' Walker got more than the midlevel exception. And SAR would not have come if Webber were here. I don't know why people who dispute the Webber trade insist on leaving SAR out of the equation. He wouldn't be here without that trade. You have to consider him an effect of the trade.

If the Kings hadn't made the trade they would have had Webber, Miller and Ostertag coming back and.... that's it. Maybe they would have signed Songaila, who knows. But it's not like there was a lot of cheap talent available, especially when you split the MLE on a player like Songaila.

However you feel about the trade, at least the Kings have frontcourt depth. The Philly three are all solidi-if-not-spectacular-players. Should SAR or Miller go down you have solid players to take their place. They're not playing a lot of minutes so of course their stats aren't good. That doesn't mean they're not good players.
 
#9
nbrans said:
Not quite right. First of all, SAR was the best talent available for the midlevel exception -- even Antoine freakin' Walker got more than the midlevel exception. And SAR would not have come if Webber were here. I don't know why people who dispute the Webber trade insist on leaving SAR out of the equation. He wouldn't be here without that trade. You have to consider him an effect of the trade.

If the Kings hadn't made the trade they would have had Webber, Miller and Ostertag coming back and.... that's it. Maybe they would have signed Songaila, who knows. But it's not like there was a lot of cheap talent available, especially when you split the MLE on a player like Songaila.

However you feel about the trade, at least the Kings have frontcourt depth. The Philly three are all solidi-if-not-spectacular-players. Should SAR or Miller go down you have solid players to take their place. They're not playing a lot of minutes so of course their stats aren't good. That doesn't mean they're not good players.
Where did I leave SAR out of the equation? I'm saying we picked up SAR because we needed to fill in a gap that should have been taken care of through trades. We wouldn't have needed to. What depth? Corliss doesn't play, Skinner barely does, and KT is producing less than Songaila. Webber is playing 40 minutes a game. Songaila provided more than enough. Shoring up the backcourt was more important to me.

Oh, and it's not real depth if the players don't play. A lot of teams would have depth then. They don't play cause they're not any good for contributing to the team. A team with depth would have players on substantial time share. You can sign crap to plug injuries when they happen. You don't need overpaid crap taking up space in the meantime.
 
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#10
Oh, and we woulda kept Barnes and Bradley. More than enough. I would also pick up people like Damon Jones, Andre Barrett, Juan Dixon and thought about Mo Evans. I'm sure if I thought harder I could come up with better but these guys come at the cheapest levels (like 1-2 mil.) just to refute the no cheap talent thing. Think what you can do with the full exception or near to it.
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#11
the only thing that i dislike about the webber trade was that we couldnt get rid of the spare pieces... we had a pretty nice bench before the trade...... if we could have signed or traded for sar and kept darius and skinner our team would be much better right now..... we really dont need thomas and corliss or skinner really but i like his game so i would want to keep him....

if the trade hadnt happened we would have a nice team, still having webber, bobby, darius and maybe mobley or we could have signed or traded for someone to replace mobley....
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#12
Interesting take?

Not hardly...

Sorry but the ship sailed. While the subject of Webber and the players we got in return will be brought up time and time again, I don't see anything new or interesting in this piece.

In fact, I actually expect to see more of these - as some of those "sports analysts" who were so gung ho about Webber being finished, done, over, etc. realize they didn't know what they were talking about.

And that doesn't change a thing. Chris Webber was a King through Feb. 22, 2005.

If you're still a Kings fan, it's really time to move on...
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
#13
he's gone.... but still..... its not really him that i miss, its everyone else that is gone because of it.....
 
#14
VF21 said:
Sorry but the ship sailed.


If you're still a Kings fan, it's really time to move on...
I'm sorry but I Disagree.

Pejas deal is coming up, we are in last place, Philly is in 1st. A lot of statements were made by people on this board, and in the media, and there will be an accounting of said statements. No one should get off the hook here. The ship hasn't sailed anywhere yet... and it's in danger of sinking. There is IMO nothing wrong with talking about it, it is what it is. Can it be taken back? No. But some people still defend the decision to trade Webber even now, that is why it won't be let go. People are still arguing about it, and it's not going to end anytime soon, you know that better than anyone.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#15
There is NO way to ever know with any certainty what might or might not have happened had he stayed.

Saying "I miss everyone else that is gone because of it" really only means Matt Barnes and Michael Bradley, since they were the only two DIRECTLY involved with the trade.

But it's still all water under the bridge. Time and sports teams march on. I hated the idea of the trade, I hated seeing it happen, I hated seeing the glee with which it was embraced by some fans, etc. But it doesn't change anything.

Webber is still gone. And he's doing one helluva job in Philadelphia. I'm very happy for him.

And I'm still a Sacramento Kings fan.
 
#16
It's interesting because it brings further attention to Petrie's supposed wisdom. Freaking Kevin Martin is getting the most minutes of anyone on the bench. I'm sorry, but the kid sucks. The frontcourt part of the bench is barely used. Honestly, you can sign guys to the minimum and they'll have as much impact. If you sign a 6-10 or taller guy that can rebound, it would have made enough difference. Our scrubs don't have enough talent to nullify height. 'Cept maybe KT but we can get what we need from him at like an 8th of his price.
 
#18
I miss the MLE cause we could have used it for real problems, instead of just keeping one problem somewhat worse instead of incredibly worse.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#19
KP said:
I'm sorry but I Disagree.

Pejas deal is coming up, we are in last place, Philly is in 1st. A lot of statements were made by people on this board, and in the media, and there will be an accounting of said statements. No one should get off the hook here. The ship hasn't sailed anywhere yet... and it's in danger of sinking. There is IMO nothing wrong with talking about it, it is what it is. Can it be taken back? No. But some people still defend the decision to trade Webber even now, that is why it won't be let go. People are still arguing about it, and it's not going to end anytime soon, you know that better than anyone.
My point was primarily in regard to calling articles like this "interesting takes." It's not interesting to me, because it's nothing more than someone writing about something after the ship has sailed.

I don't care if people talk about it, I just find it somewhat ironic as more time passes that more and more people are starting to under what some of us were trying so hard to get across...

It doesn't give me any satisfaction whatsoever to see people coming around to the other point of view. It just makes me sad.

Why? Because Webber is still gone and we still have nothing really to show for it...

Even if the Kings end up doing well, I will personally think it's IN SPITE OF the Webber trade, not because of it. And that will never change, at least in my heart, but it doesn't matter. He's still gone; and the Peja issue is now separate and distinct from anything having to do directly with Webber.

And FOR ME it's simply time to move on because nothing can be gained by me in continuing to try and explain why I thought the trade was ill-advised, ill-timed, etc.

So, again? My main complaint is in the title of the thread. ;)
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#20
Zyphen said:
It's interesting because it brings further attention to Petrie's supposed wisdom. Freaking Kevin Martin is getting the most minutes of anyone on the bench. I'm sorry, but the kid sucks. The frontcourt part of the bench is barely used. Honestly, you can sign guys to the minimum and they'll have as much impact. If you sign a 6-10 or taller guy that can rebound, it would have made enough difference. Our scrubs don't have enough talent to nullify height. 'Cept maybe KT but we can get what we need from him at like an 8th of his price.
You sure have a lot of animosity towards Kevin Martin.

:rolleyes:
 
#21
The article wasn't so much about the Webber trade as the fact that Petrie is twiddling his thumbs (for me). Any value Skinner, KT, and Corliss had peaked in the offseason. They were showcased for whatever the heck they were worth last year. Now, they have little to no value in and of themselves, making it harder to trade them off in package deals.

And yes, I dislike Martin. Hart too...
 
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#22
Zyphen said:
The article wasn't so much about the Webber trade as the fact that Petrie is twiddling his thumbs. Any value Skinner, KT, and Corliss had peaked in the offseason. They were showcased for whatever the heck they were worth last year. Now, they have little to no value in and of themselves, making it harder to trade them off in package deals.

And yes, I dislike Martin. Hart too...
Petrie is the real issue. If the trends highlighted in this article continue, then the real debate behind all of this will actually begin. I don't personally dislike Kevin or Jason Hart and had high hopes for both of them, but so far I have been very dissapointed with both of their play on the court, they haven't played up to their billing, been inconsistant, and our team has suffered because of it. it's not only them but they are just as much to blame as the rest of our bench.
 
#23
KP said:
Petrie is the real issue. If the trends highlighted in this article continue, then the real debate behind all of this will actually begin. I don't personally dislike Kevin or Jason Hart and had high hopes for both of them, but so far I have been very dissapointed with both of their play on the court, they haven't played up to their billing, been inconsistant, and our team has suffered because of it. it's not only them but they are just as much to blame as the rest of our bench.
I was being sarcastic since VF was. I don't know them personally so of course I can't have a personal opinion either way. But I find that they are poor quality players.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#24
I wasn't being sarcastic.

I think you're erroneous and I suspect it's because you primarily follow box scores and aren't able to watch the games themselves.

Kevin Martin is not going to be an all-star in the foreseeable future, but he does have a lot going for him that doesn't always show up in the stats. So does Jason Hart, as a matter of fact.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#26
KP said:
Petrie is the real issue. If the trends highlighted in this article continue, then the real debate behind all of this will actually begin. I don't personally dislike Kevin or Jason Hart and had high hopes for both of them, but so far I have been very dissapointed with both of their play on the court, they haven't played up to their billing, been inconsistant, and our team has suffered because of it. it's not only them but they are just as much to blame as the rest of our bench.
Petrie may have been the person who annouced the trade, but I will always wonder if he was told to do so by his bosses.

I am not convinced that Geoff Petrie alone would have made that trade at that point in time. It sounded then and still does like it was a decision made at a higher level. I don't know - nor do I know if we'll ever know - if it was true, but considering some of the other actions we KNOW the Maloofs have taken, I have to wonder...
 
#27
VF21 said:
I wasn't being sarcastic.

I think you're erroneous and I suspect it's because you primarily follow box scores and aren't able to watch the games themselves.

Kevin Martin is not going to be an all-star in the foreseeable future, but he does have a lot going for him that doesn't always show up in the stats. So does Jason Hart, as a matter of fact.
Everyone you disagree with don't watch games, or aren't real fans, or have some disability. Except Bricklayer of course. I watched 2 Kings games. Heard 4 on Audio League Pass (good for multitasking when I need eyes for something else). I use PPStream for my video needs. No TV at college.
 
#28
VF21 said:
Petrie may have been the person who annouced the trade, but I will always wonder if he was told to do so by his bosses.

I am not convinced that Geoff Petrie alone would have made that trade at that point in time. It sounded then and still does like it was a decision made at a higher level. I don't know - nor do I know if we'll ever know - if it was true, but considering some of the other actions we KNOW the Maloofs have taken, I have to wonder...
I've had the same thoughts myself^, but(and I know I'm going off topic a little) it's not just the Webber trade I'm talking about. It's a long list of bad moves going back awhile now.This team hasn't been given enough time to start that thread yet, but if we don't turn it around, trust me...that thread is going to be a doosy.
 
#29
I think it is way too early to really evaluate the trade and its ramifications. It hasn't even been a year yet. As the article mentions, in the short term it doesn't appear to have worked out for the Kings (nor for that matter has it really worked out for the Sixers, who did no better with Webber last year than without him this year--irregardless of the reasons. And their start this year is fine, but not mind-blowing. They are a poor rebounding team and have two or three quality wins and a couple of bad loses).

In the long term... We don't know how the long term is going to work out. And the pro-trade/anti-trade groups are both guessing. I think this conversaton will be more relevant in another six months or more.
 
#30
KP said:
I'm sorry but I Disagree.

Pejas deal is coming up, we are in last place, Philly is in 1st.
The "trade" isn't even a year old. I think perhaps 35-40 games into the season and certainly after the trading deadline would be a better time to analyze the team.

I think the problem is everyone defines success in their own terms. Is Webber playing well right now...YES...absolutely. How long will it last?? Would you bet 60 million on him being a quality player for at least two more years? Apparently...the Maloofs weren't willing to take that chance.

Looking at players who have had similar procedures I would be willing to bet that forty or fifty games into the season things might not be the same. But it's really just speculation based on past performances. Let's see how he plays tonight after playing 44 minutes last night. Will the same people that post his 28point and 16 rebound nights come on the board and post his 4-18 and 4 rebound nights? I mean really what's the point. If Webber misses 20 or 30 games and Skinner and Thomas both play well later in the season is it successful then? How well do they have to play? What if they play well but the Kings stink?. What if Webber plays well but Philly sucks? What if Thomas and Corliss are traded before the deadline?

The problem for me as a PROPONENT of ridding the organization of Webber's contract is that I believed we would rebuild the team. That's just the nature of sports(except maybe the Yankees). Teams build toward a goal, make trades, draft players, and sign free agents to try to achieve that goal. Unfortuantely, the Kings fell short of the goal and now THAT team is gone! Not just Webber but DC, and I think most importantly Vlade. How long can you realistically expect the team to play at that level?

As a fan I can ride out the "tough" stretches if I know the they are builidng toward something special. I didn't feel that way with Webber as an injured franchise player making twenty million a year. The problem is I still don't feel that way.